Recent changes to Thaz gear..long post

[Spiritplx]

Why can't we discuss ALL items that were changed? ToT, Thaz, and Sanctum loot all got changed, mostly for the worst. We were told Sanctum loot would be upgraded, when in reality, it was not. I don't think this thread is only about Thaz loot, it should be about all the loot that was changed.

 

[Thinkmeats]

Why can't we discuss ALL items that were changed? ToT, Thaz, and Sanctum loot all got changed, mostly for the worst. We were told Sanctum loot would be upgraded, when in reality, it was not. I don't think this thread is only about Thaz loot, it should be about all the loot that was changed.

Because of the thing I just said? Sanctum loot is too much in flux for conversations about it to be meaningful.

edit:

Meat note: Zaela is still in the process of tinkering with loots at this tier, so the stats items currently have are not final!

 

[Syalara]

Zaela that sounds reasonable enough, thank you for your effort/time.

While you are taking a look at Thaz loot, would you be so kind as to consider my comments in the OP about Nevian vs Iceflow? Its pretty clear that Iceflow needs a small boost to even be on par with Nevian much less above it in tiers. Zalnoks Frontal Lobe also should get a brief looksee as its alot less mana then Nevian...having Jaylas Impact on it helps alittle but there is not much reason for most classes to pull it out of a bag...and if so, its usually only for the Effect. If thats what is intended for this item then so be it but it always seemed abit lackluster to me.

Other then that, the only request I have from a wizard standpoint is the bracer proc, if its made to work as it currently shows in parser, please adjust the duration to 3 ticks. A 2 tick duration means a one tick actual duration in game usually and considering spell cooldown + archaic cast time including CSI7...one tick isnt enough to land a single spell.

Once again, thank you Zaela.

-edit
good points about dru legs, removed the remark.

 

[Finny]

(goddamn druid legs)

In all fairness, there are other pieces with FT2 and several with FT1 & focus, so yeah damn them too.

(sorry im really defensive and biased, since I play a druid )

But thanks Zaela, im sure this is a lot of work for you but hopefully things will be nice and balanced when you're done!

 

[Malluas]

the druid legs are NOT overpowered. FT per set is what 3 ? the FT2 on legs and 1 on hat adds up to the same FT on other sets. Just happens the legs have FT2. They are atm only 5 more mana. Will you put FT on the boots (along with the CSI focus)?

I don't see a reason putting some aug into great items is a prob. I suggested making thaz augs Lore. But if i put (sake of arguement) traders pip into the legs.. would make them (prenerf) 305 mana and FT2. and then another say 20 for the 2nd aug slot. Great but then you can't use the 20 aug again. Or just remove the augs, which on average would be 100 mana.. but only steel is at the point they can give out augs alot (farming time and pieces completed). None of our healers i think have any thaz augs. I sure as hell dont. Augs are a time consuming thing after already farming the hell out of the zone to gear up in thaz armor. So i understand why they weren't lore.

As some tot items that need boosts, the Arms of the Nobility are still barely better than thaz arms.

 

[Malluas]

i agree but with armor sets.. youhave to look at the whole more so. granted druid legs will be a single item once your deep into ToT (farhags, tarhyl). But thats the risk of creating items. And the FT2 is comparable to FT1 and DI on items (shawl from 4-2) FT1 and CSI on something.

 

[volvov2]

My jab at druid legs is just about the fact that they have the most mana of the entire druid set on top of ft2. Not something that any druid is gonna give up like... ever. Looking at the items individually is important too.

Since gear seems to be built around no one ever reaching FT20 without an eternal at the *least*, I can see why druid legs are irreplaceable.

Thaz Augs

Other than the extremely rare drop off trash, Thaz augs come 99% from 1 mob in each wing who drops only one other piece of loot, I would say they are balanced and not entirely out of the question. Not only do you need to use rare essences, but you are doing it for extremely small gains.

 

[Syalara]

You snuck one in on me as I was typing Zae, thanks for not changing the augs

 

[Rouean_Onrielas]

I think This Thread <<< on the Bard mods pertains to this thread as well and should be considered for the itemization changes to Thaz/ToT/IS ect.

 

[Malleus2]

As to the thaz augs: I don't see how you're seeing it Malleus, thaz augs are INSANE.

I did state I was specifically addressing shaman gear (and augs hence the image). I dont know Zaela, perhaps the American definition of insane differs from the Canadian one...

Earth-infused Amber
ac 2
sta +3
cha +3
hp +10
mana +10
dr +2
pr +2

Fire-infused Amber
sta +4
hp +10
mana +10
fr +3
1% stun resist

Water-infused Amber
sta +3
wis -3
hp +10
cr +2
3% energy/defence

Air-infused Amber
wis +3
agi +3
hp +10
mr +2
+1% mind shield
-1% aggression

None of these have 20 mana. In fact, 2 have no mana. The most attractive of these is the Air-infused but really if I want to avoid agro on slow I slap on my knowledge of the end with its -5 agro. I realize the FT1 ones were overboard but those days are gone.

Anyhow my point wasnt that the augs needed to be changed, just that I realized that the gear was designed with the double augs in mind. Even given that fact post nerf if you try to bring up the mana shortfall with the aug you still fall short and get 1 FT for all your work.

Zejav requires you kill Deyrani [easy end of tier 7]
-vs-
Spiritcaller Greaves with a infused amber requires you kill two significantly harder bosses [tier 8 or 9 for legs, 9 for core](or be really lucky and get the core and legs awarded to you from the same tier 9 kill) in addition to requiring you to have 2 class gems and 5 essences.

In all Im glad to see the nerfs being reworked as it seemed that all the top end gear payed the price for a couple of out-of-line items.

 

[volvov2]

Really I think differences between tiers should be more than 20 mana/10 hp for the thaz aug reason alone, not to mention so there is actual progression, if the difference between tiers is 20 mana per item, a lucky and well put together guild can simply skip tiers.

 

[Malleus2]

seeing as we live in the same province, as you may recall!

Doh, no I didnt You are in BC as well?

 

[Pallish]

Im sorry but i had to post on allli's behalf ( he cant register to the forums). The Mage legs and Gloves were fine as they were. Moving Range inc to gloves and taking the massive pet healing inc is a pretty big problem with the consideration that pets heals were already lacking (recast and strength of the heal) and the focus effect was a partial fix to that issue.

 

[Syalara]

Really I think differences between tiers should be more than 20 mana/10hp

Agree, totally.

Hopefully when Zaela is done with ToT gear upgrades this will be remedied.

 

[vistachiri]

Im sorry but i had to post on allli's behalf ( he cant register to the forums). The Mage legs and Gloves were fine as they were. Moving Range inc to gloves and taking the massive pet healing inc is a pretty big problem with the consideration that pets heals were already lacking (recast and strength of the heal) and the focus effect was a partial fix to that issue.

That's why I'm thinking just plain old healing inc 7 on the gloves dude. B/c the focus is limited usage. Like only works with the 64 heal. Takes it up 30% and 10% cost. Then we have the hi7 which takes up everything you've got 21%. Which I honestly found far more useful than the glove effect. The difference is paltry enough considering what the heal goes for initially that the 9% (also taking into account the higher cost) doesn't really make up the difference when you consider heal clickies + mend (and personally I'm clicking that thing every 9min like clockwork when xping or whatever, or waiting for it to pop again usually). Though I found the focus effect unattractive when it was even first being discussed. Preferring to keep my healing increment 5 item in over an item with slightly (very slightly) higher mana. If it affected mend too then gg, awesome, but it would be impossible to keep the extra cost in.

Problem I have with it too is it was mostly a gear fix. Which I find to be bad in the first place, because mages pre-thaz tier still have the same issue. That and as I mentioned earlier I found it to be a meh fix in the first place, not even really worth making the gloves for if there was another accessible healing increment item in gear progression that was accessible to mages (even a lower strength one than 7). As the situation was with thaz gear I'd say arms, pants and robe (if you don't have the cmal robe, which due to other issues is not common on mages) all come before gloves. From what I've seen shoes should probably come before making them too after the focus effect was changed. Only reason I got them personally was because I wanted to see what they were and no one had them. I haven't seen many people jumping on the bandwagon post change of them either. Hell I think I might still be the only mage with them. Most people preferring loathing even pre-nerf, which after the focus change, I was planning on getting a pair as well, but passed last drop of them as someone else needed more.

But b/c I've written like paragraphy like I tend to, in short healing inc 7 on the gloves I feel would be far better, toss range on the pants again. Also unless the wrists have ft (as no one has made them yet not sure) we have one less if I understand correctly that each set has 3 total. Though I may be mistaken on that, and I would propose that one of the pieces have ft tossed on. Possibly the robe as it's quite lacking against the cmal robe still because of the lack of ft (the original idea being to fix the cmal robe so that it wasn't the best high end robe, but everything I've seen still pales in comparison). The only time I would wear it really being for a non mr (and probably non-cr and fr, because those, especially fr tend to be verrrry high in mages, tils+ds for example)resist fight that wasn't very long as the class robe has better resists in everything except mr. Bit of spell ward too, but I consider that fairly inconsequential. I still just don't see it as a respectable alternative. Or even possibly healing inc 7+1ft on the gloves, it would make them far more desirable to have than they are currently (which was the rationale for a change, as most felt they were not desirable in the least pre-change), and would probably make the piece order go more towards gloves pants and arms robe (not necc in that order, depends on the companion effects really, but most are accessible nowadays on various gear).

 

[Xeldan]

Putting in my 2 cents here since I actually designed these items and know the time it takes to acquire an entire set with full augments (think... probably not gonna happen for anyone on the server, maybe someone like Zhak).

The armor was in fact designed at its peak to be the "best" of its tier, simply because the number of encounters in Thazeran eluded to the thought that there wouldn't really need to be another zone around the same exact tier as it -- then ToT came along and changed that completely. The base Immaculate stuff was intended to be decent resist gear without any effects at all, while the class armor was meant to be worthy of the time sink that it was (pretty much exactly the same as "quested" armor sets before them).

The augments were intended to take the armor an additional tier above what it was, and does the job fairly well (though the water augments were a bit insane). In retrospect I probably would have made the augments lore, or quested so you could only obtain one of each.

The Druid legs were designed the way they were specifically because of Zevaj; they're intended to be a full two tiers above Zevaj in quality. Yes, it makes it difficult to design higher tier items, but that was another pitfall of IP item design.

 

[Mythryn]

I really think the changes to the armor sets are unneeded. The two defenses the staff has (that I've heard) are 'It was designed as the end-all be-all armor' and 'You can get it all in Lower Thaz'. Both of which are a bit silly.

Point one:
It might have been designed that way, but pieces were still replaced rather quickly in ToT. The staff claims to be straying from 'end-all be-all' items, but Sanctum has been called (just like Thaz and Inner Prison before it) the end-all be-all raid zone. Most players have seen a rather unsettling pattern from the SoD staff, which is, in their battle against mudflation, they CONSTANTLY go back and nerf items, claim they won't be making items like that in the future, and do it all over again, only to nerf the items yet again.

Point two:
Yes, if you're a total masochist, you CAN get all your Thaz sets from Lower Thaz. Guess what, you could also get all of your guilds Combine gems in Outer Prison. Yet, oddly, no one does that. Because it would take ridiculous amount of time. Not to mention, you don't just deal with one RNG roll, you deal with, at the bare, nearly impossible minimum, 6. 4 mobs (in different areas) for your essences, another mob for your class specific gem, and another mob for your archetype specific armor piece.

Not to mention, with 15 classes, and 4 archetypes, the odds of you getting your pieces is somewhat slim. Plus, you have 17 other people to deal with. It takes TIME to get your armor sets, and most people got their items/essences/gems from Upper Thaz, just like they got their combine gems from Inner Prison.


The points I'm trying to make are, it's disheartening to players to get 15 HP/Mana upgrades, then have them nerfed to more insignificance by turning them into 5-10 HP/Mana upgrades. It's happened quite a bit, and it's probably going to happen with Sanctum yet again, and the cycle will start all over again. The other point is, it takes a lot of time to get your Thaz armor, then get the essences, and the gem for a piece. Not to mention, you have 7 slots that you have to take all that time for, and fight 6 RNGs. A bit more time intensive then clearing a wing, killing a boss.

 

[Mythryn]

In the end most armor sets lost maybe 20-25 hp and/or mana, and I'm not sure how much svall (12ish?). (most melee sets got new skill mods and a couple effects were added/changed, but I guess that may as well be a nerf in itself) The only problems I really had with Thaz armor was that, firstly, they had too much total resists; making a visible slot item with less than 45 or so saves was no go from the player's side of view once they got into higher ToT, and that sucks. Secondly, the randomness of the stats between class archtypes made making new items painful, especially with healer items, and a fair amount for casters and not so much for melee dps, but a little. Being expected to outdo 190hp+220mana (+10 auged) cleric hat at the same time as 185mana (+10) +1ft shaman hat hurts me, on the inside.

Other than that, I don't hope to make any more sweeping nerfs, I'm tired of it. If I'm still around for any post sanctum zones, I guess we'll just have to deal with 350 mana bracers.

edit
This post wasn't nearly as cynical as I wanted it to be. I'm still adjusting ToT items. STILL.

edit again
Don't expect any druid to unequip their thaz legs. Even if there ends up being 300 mana legs in sanctum (dear god I hope not) no druid is gonna drop those legs for em. Seriously.

edit MK III
I guess we may as well slap ft3 on those 300mana sanctum legs though, why not. We can always make an upgrade later.

So, you say you don't want all these things, and yet there is a 235 mana, FT2 hat. I understand the need to nerf some overpowered items, but its a constant cycle of making 'overpowered' items and then nerfing them over again, and repeating in the next tier.

 

[Malluas]

Putting in my 2 cents here since I actually designed these items and know the time it takes to acquire an entire set with full augments (think... probably not gonna happen for anyone on the server, maybe someone like Zhak).

The armor was in fact designed at its peak to be the "best" of its tier, simply because the number of encounters in Thazeran eluded to the thought that there wouldn't really need to be another zone around the same exact tier as it -- then ToT came along and changed that completely. The base Immaculate stuff was intended to be decent resist gear without any effects at all, while the class armor was meant to be worthy of the time sink that it was (pretty much exactly the same as "quested" armor sets before them).

The augments were intended to take the armor an additional tier above what it was, and does the job fairly well (though the water augments were a bit insane). In retrospect I probably would have made the augments lore, or quested so you could only obtain one of each.

The Druid legs were designed the way they were specifically because of Zevaj; they're intended to be a full two tiers above Zevaj in quality. Yes, it makes it difficult to design higher tier items, but that was another pitfall of IP item design.

they are still MAYBE one tier ahead. mana has always been just about the same. FT2 is great love that, but full tiers would be the FT2 and more than like 5 mana more.

 

[Latten]

I really think the changes to the armor sets are unneeded. The two defenses the staff has (that I've heard) are 'It was designed as the end-all be-all armor' and 'You can get it all in Lower Thaz'. Both of which are a bit silly.

Point one:
It might have been designed that way, but pieces were still replaced rather quickly in ToT. The staff claims to be straying from 'end-all be-all' items, but Sanctum has been called (just like Thaz and Inner Prison before it) the end-all be-all raid zone. Most players have seen a rather unsettling pattern from the SoD staff, which is, in their battle against mudflation, they CONSTANTLY go back and nerf items, claim they won't be making items like that in the future, and do it all over again, only to nerf the items yet again.

Point two:
Yes, if you're a total masochist, you CAN get all your Thaz sets from Lower Thaz. Guess what, you could also get all of your guilds Combine gems in Outer Prison. Yet, oddly, no one does that. Because it would take ridiculous amount of time. Not to mention, you don't just deal with one RNG roll, you deal with, at the bare, nearly impossible minimum, 6. 4 mobs (in different areas) for your essences, another mob for your class specific gem, and another mob for your archetype specific armor piece.

Not to mention, with 15 classes, and 4 archetypes, the odds of you getting your pieces is somewhat slim. Plus, you have 17 other people to deal with. It takes TIME to get your armor sets, and most people got their items/essences/gems from Upper Thaz, just like they got their combine gems from Inner Prison.


The points I'm trying to make are, it's disheartening to players to get 15 HP/Mana upgrades, then have them nerfed to more insignificance by turning them into 5-10 HP/Mana upgrades. It's happened quite a bit, and it's probably going to happen with Sanctum yet again, and the cycle will start all over again. The other point is, it takes a lot of time to get your Thaz armor, then get the essences, and the gem for a piece. Not to mention, you have 7 slots that you have to take all that time for, and fight 6 RNGs. A bit more time intensive then clearing a wing, killing a boss.

Wow i agree totally Thaz is the biggest time sink in the world go get thoose class armors and the augs as said before only steel? has a lot of essences to get the augs.But like you make a new tier make new items that are better than zone before that as Mythryn said then you nerf it and make it harder every single time oh you just forget to bump down the encounters oh wait didnt you make Thaz a bit harder not to long ago syduck:

Like look at steel i guess thoose ppl just wanna beat the game and pretty much be done with it. I guess that is not something devs/admins wants to. Overpowered items hell its just the zone that says The end and you beat the game of course they are supose to be crazy items.