Rebalancing Racial Bonuses

Spiritplx

Spiritplx

Dalayan Elder
There are only a few racial bonuses that I think need looked at, but these bonuses are indeed (in my opinion, and many others) overpowered. The two races I think should definitely be looked at are gnome and erudite.

Gnomes get a 10% bonus to all worn haste and all worn foci which is a HUGE benefit. Sure gnomes get a -25% to fear and mez, but really, this is not a factor many of the times. Either you have Pot4 and resist it, or the spell is unresistable (or the fact that mobs that fear or mez are super rare in SoD).

Erudites get a 5% straight bonus to all specializations. This means that erudites have better avoidance, spell damage, melee damage, etc then any other race. They also have a tiny exp. bonus which is more than negligible, but they have zero penalties.

Honestly, from a power standpoint, these races are just better than the others. The only other race that comes close is iksar (small ac bonus and small innate regen bonus). The problem I have with these abilities is that people should be picking races because that's what they want to play instead of what will be the "best". Some classes cannot even take advantage of these overpowered races, making the imbalance even worse.

Either the racial bonuses should be toned down a bit, or other races should get a little something else to boost their powerlevels with gnomes and erudites.

(Hey neat, this is another one of those balancing threads...if you are going to whine and bitch that I am nerfing your race, then you better have valid reasons for why your race should be overpowered, or stay out of this thread)
 
Sounds like you get a nifty little bonus for playing a midget or someone with a big huge forehead.

Personally it was exactly those reasons that caused me not to pick them bonuses or not.
 
While being a Shaman makes all races more or less the same (Iksar, Ogre, Troll, Froglok, Barbarian, I don't see big differences though Iksar AC/Regen is better and I picked Ogre cause I thought we were, like in Live, the only ones that couldn't be stunned from the front, but it turned to be everyone cannot here) I have to agree with Felyn.

All races should give small bonuses that are fun but not determining and at the end you picking the race you like most. That applies for all races but the forementioned by Felyn. Obv if I was gonna do a wizard for example I'd pick gnome or erudite cause at the end end it will be always better than others. I think difference is huge. And as I said I agree completely with Felyn.
 
If these races ARE so much better, why don't you see more of them in the high end? Out of the classes that would get the most benefit from these Racials (Warrior, Wizard and Cleric) there's only one Gnome in the top 5 cleric list, one Gnome in the top 5 warrior list, and one Erudite in the top 5 wizard list.

Why? Because for 95% of the game (the part thats not raiding) stats are better than bonuses. But honestly, it seems to me people are still playing what they want to play, not what they need to play to be the best.
 
If I'm gonna be blind and made to stand in the back of the raid all of the time I damn well want to nuke harder for it :hmpf:
 
Whether you think that the gnome/erudite bonuses are too strong or the other races too weak, either way they really do stand out. I think the major problem is that the gnome/erudite (I'm just gonna say G/E from now on) are the only ones that are huge in the long run, i.e. the end game, but minor for most of the game, i.e. from 1-65 and even a little into raid territory.

Up until everything starts to get maxed out, 10% and 5% really don't make much of a difference, because who cares if a DE cleric heals for 300 while a gnome cleric heals for 302 (made up numbers). But when its the difference between a nuke doing 5000 base and 5500 base (mostly made up) it becomes a big deal.

A lot of the other racial bonuses actually do the exact opposite, where they become less useful as you advance (relatively speaking). For example, all those elven mez/charm resist bonuses are great if you xp somewhere with lots of enchanter mobs and as you are levelling up. But in the raid game, any significant charm or mez is either unresistable or has a ridiculously huge resist mod (yeah, generalization but you shouldn't choose a race for one raid encounter). See also high elf charm immunity.

Dwarven fear resistance is really good, but it is really the only thing that they get, and as such is pretty underwhelming since fear is really only predominant in a minority of zones and encounters (with DHK and friends being an obvious exception, but hey, pot4).

Barb/troll/ogre stun/mez reduction is nifty but it doesn't actually stop you from getting mezzed or stunned in the first place. Trolls get regen but barb/ogre don't really get anything else.

Troll and iksar regen both help tremendously at lower levels but become negligible as you get more hp and in the raid game there's lots of worn recovery.

Halflings get a bunch of interesting things, but the death save bonus is the major thing. Anecdotal evidence suggests that the innate death save is pretty minor, and the death save bonus is nice, but again, unimpressive in the long run.

Frogloks swim better. Woo. As said above iksar natural armor is nice, see above for fear resist.

Yeah I got tired near the end there. The point is that most racial bonuses are lackluster.

Personally, I think the racial bonuses should be improved all around. Like, give some races more/less avoidance vs mitigation, accuracy vs raw damage, more spell power versus spending less mana or getting less aggro; stuff like that. I have ideas but I haven't quite worked them all out yet.
 
Mythryn said:
If these races ARE so much better, why don't you see more of them in the high end? Out of the classes that would get the most benefit from these Racials (Warrior, Wizard and Cleric) there's only one Gnome in the top 5 cleric list, one Gnome in the top 5 warrior list, and one Erudite in the top 5 wizard list.

Why? Because for 95% of the game (the part thats not raiding) stats are better than bonuses. But honestly, it seems to me people are still playing what they want to play, not what they need to play to be the best.
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Just because people are either ignorant to the fact that they have better bonuses or because it affects one tier of the game more than another, does not mean that the bonuses should not be rebalanced. (I am also sure that more than 5% of the server/content make up for the 60-65+++ to which this affects the most).


Llano did a good job summarizing more in depth of what I wanted to say. Almost every race has a pretty "meh" bonus or ability, and when it is lackluster at the start, it just gets worse at the end. Obviously I would love for all races to get a slight boost instead of just weakening gnomes and erudites, but an overall balance is what I would want tyhe most, so however the devs want to implement that.
 
So far this is a whine that some races get stronger bonuses than others. I am not sure when people got the idea that posting "I think something might be messed up so please can the staff figure out how to fix it" was going to get anything accomplished, but it doesn't.

In order to make this a suggestion you should come up with solutions that will correct the imbalance you perceive.

So take every race, and tweak it's bonuses and detriments to attain this balance. Then post it here so that others can comment on it.
 
Fair enough. I propose that the bonuses for gnomes should be 6% to foci and haste, and the erudite bonus should go down to 3%. That way the other races can stay the same and these two classes can become balanced.


 
Spiritplx said:
Fair enough. I propose that the bonuses for gnomes should be 6% to foci and haste, and the erudite bonus should go down to 3%. That way the other races can stay the same and these two classes can become balanced.
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Does this really fix what you originally posted about? At the super top end these two races will still have a mathematical edged over the rest.

I would shift my argument more along the lines of. Lets reduce the Erudite Spec bonus 3% to all, and give other races that are a little lacking a 6% bonus to one spec (i.e. wood elves +6% to sight/warding, High-elves +6% to focus/mind) I am not oging to go through the whole list for you, but if you truly are interested in balancing all the races then you need to actually look at all the races, not just try to get the 2 you think are too powerful nerfed.
 
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It would help, yes. The two classes get to keep what the original developers wanted them to get, but make their bonuses 40% less effective. Iksars get an AC bonus that makes them the best tanks, but I don't think its overpowered enough to warrant a change. Making their bonuses weaker would make them great, but more balanced. As a player, you can make suggestions too if you want.
 
Spiritplx said:
As a player, you can make suggestions too if you want.
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Sure I can, but this is your issue not mine. I don't completely agree that anything needs to be changed. I am just trying to help you present your argument in a way that will help the admins make that decision.
 
tempus said:
Does this really fix what you originally posted about? At the super top end these two races will still have a mathematical edged over the rest.
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aren't they supposed to? it's their bonus
 
Tempus said:
Does this really fix what you originally posted about?
I would shift my argument more along the lines of. Lets reduce the Erudite Spec bonus 3% to all, and give other races that are a little lacking a 6% bonus to one spec (i.e. wood elves +6% to sight/warding, High-elves +6% to focus/mind) I am not oging to go through the whole list for you, but if you truly are interested in balancing all the races then you need to actually look at all the races, not just try to get the 2 you think are too powerful nerfed.
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You added this during/after I responded, but this to me is what suggestion threads are all about. People have written up HUGE ideas just to be shot down OR the ideas were tweaked. I think its better to just stir up conversation then to try to have something changed one way or another. Having the entire community throw ideas out there is way better than one person trying to post one change and have all of his or her "yes men/women" come post.

If I suggest a specific change in the initial post, then people try to only go down that road, where as when I am slightly vague, then people can come up with their own ideas. I think what you suggested is a great idea, and a good starting point. In my opinion, getting a concrete list isn't always necessary, and just getting the idea of something that needs changed posted is the way to go. I think a lot of people don't post in the suggestions/requests thread because they don't have the time to think of every little detail.

People should be posting their ideas on what should be changed, and if they don't think anything should be changed, they should post why they think it is fine as is (as in, what are the detriments of being a gnome/erudite to help balance their bonuses).
 
Well in that case, just ask for ideas from other people about potential racial bonuses if you don't want to come up with them yourself. I'm not a terribly creative person but here's one. Nix the improved lung capacity on Frogloks and replace it with innate run speed 1 to reflect the fact that frogloks bounce everywhere like slimy kangaroos. Yeah, it wouldn't be worth that much at high end but pretty much all of the racial abilities are worth more at low levels.
 
its absurd to change these. at the highest end a 10% focus bonus is 2.7% on nukes. Sure thats huge, but everyone knows or can easily find out the benefits of a race...and still people make other races of wizards and whatnot. If you want to be a midget that cant make it up stairs or a minority, thats your detriment. Sure some people may make a char b4 they know the difference, but xp is easy here. Reroll the char if your really that worried.
 
I came up with some tweaks to all the racials (as found in the ToK) to make them (in my silly little head) slightly more balanced.

Code: 
HUMAN:
+5% Experience Gain
+10% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]
+3% to faction gains
+3% to all faction losses


BARBARIAN:
Slam
-25% Duration to Fear targeting the player
-25% Duration to Stun targeting the player
+5 to all Weapon Skills

ERUDITE
+2.5% Experience Gain
+5% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]
+3% to all specializations
-4 to all base resistances

WOOD ELF
Infravision
Friendly To Animals
+20% Mesmerize Resistance
+20% Charm Resistance
+3% to Sight/Warding Specialization
50 Forage
50 Hide


HIGH ELF
Infravision
+20% Mesmerize Resistance
+60% Charm Resistance
+3% to Focus/Mind Specialization
-3% to faction gains



DARK ELF
Ultravision
+10% Mesmerize Resistance
+10% Charm Resistance
50 Hide
+3% to Energy/Defense Specialization
+2% to all faction gains


HALF ELF
Infravision
+5% Mesmerize Resistance
+5% Charm Resistance
+2% Experience Gain
+2% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]
+1.5% to Energy/Defense, Focus/Mind and Sight/Warding Specializations
-2 to all base resistances

DWARF
Infravision
+35% Fear Resistance
50 Mining
+2% Weapon Proc Rate

TROLL
Infravision
Slam
Regeneration
-25% Duration to Fear targeting the player
-25% Duration to Stun targeting the player
-2.5% Experience Rate
-10% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]
Large: Increase damage dealt from Bash, Kick and Slam.
+5% to Blade/Strike Specialization

OGRE
Infravision
Slam
Consumes Food Faster
-20% Duration to Fear targeting the player
-35% Duration to Stun targeting the player
Clumsy: Increased chance to miss


HALFLING
Infravision
Consumes Food Faster
Innate Death Save
+10% Taunt Chance
+15% Death Save Spell Effect
-5% Weapon Proc Rate
50 Sneak
50 Hide

GNOME
Infravision
+8% Haste Item Effect
+8% Focus Item Effect
-25% Fear Resistance
-25% Mesmerize Resistance
50 Tinkering

IKSAR
Infravision
Natural Armor
Regeneration
+10% Fear Resistance
-2.5% Experience Rate
-10% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]
50 Forage

FROGLOK
Ultravision
Improved Swimming
Improved Lung Capacity
+10% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]
Regeneration
 
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I would move the "Large: Increase damage dealt from Bash, Kick and Slam." to ogre from troll.

Making it:
TROLL
Infravision
Slam
Regeneration
-25% Duration to Fear targeting the player
-25% Duration to Stun targeting the player
-2.5% Experience Rate
-10% Skill Learning Rate [Does not affect tradeskills]
+5% to Blade/Strike Specialization

OGRE
Infravision
Slam
Consumes Food Faster
-20% Duration to Fear targeting the player
-35% Duration to Stun targeting the player
Clumsy: Increased chance to miss
Large: Increase damage dealt from Bash, Kick and Slam.

Just seems like trolls are getting way more they way you originally wrote it.

Also, I would think that froglok might need a little something. Maybe since they all worship malath they could have an innate +LAWFUL bonus starting out.
 
Tempus said:
I would move the "Large: Increase damage dealt from Bash, Kick and Slam." to ogre from troll.
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Wasn't the increased damage put in to offset the difference between Trolls and Iksars? They had same/similar negatives but Iksars got Natural Armor whereas Trolls previously had nothing.

Not saying that it should definitely be left the original way, because there is the +5% blade/strike; but just that jumped out at me.

Additionally, I do see the sense in having both the Clumsy and Large put on the same race. You swing harder, which is what makes you clumsier.
 
HALFLING
PR: +5
DR: +5
Ability: Infravision
Pig: Consumes food faster
Ability: Innate Death Save
Taunt: +10%
Proc Rate: -5%
Nimble: + 10 Dodge
Sneak: +50
Hide: +50

OGRE
Ability: Infravision
Ability: Slam
Pig: Consumes food faster
Fear Duration: -25%
Stun Duration: -45%
Clumsy: Increased chance to miss
Brute: Critical hit chance + 10%

WOOD ELF
Infravision
Friendly To Animals
+20% Mesmerize Resistance
+20% Charm Resistance
+5% to Sight/Warding Specialization
50 Forage
50 Hide
 
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