Rangers - Archery

D

Dujek

Dalayan Beginner
I'm opening this just incase someone has an interesting idea but doesn't know where to put it.

Basically, archery needs to be re-done a little bit. The main concerns are that it doesn't perform up to par with rangers' expectations for a class-defining skill. Most rangers will opt for their melee weapons, as they tend to do more direct DPS and will usually have nice procs to add to over-all damage, not to mention the fact that it's easier to hit auto-attack and sit back than to keep pressing the same key over and over and over and over.

On top of this, archery is generally underpowered at lower levels. It's strong at the beginning, but as you move into the 30's, 40's and low 50's, there's really not much of a reason to use archery outside of bowkiting (which is incredibly lame in itself (and booooring)) as the selection of bows is rather limited and it really doesn't do any DPS compared to dual wield and double attack anyway.

Since I'm probably the person on staff who's had the most experience with archery and playing a ranger straight through from 1-64 (almost 65 ><), and since I care about the class and how it's viewed in group and raid situations, I've somewhat taken it upon myself to come up with a list of options and alternatives to make archery a lot more useful and desirable in the foreseeable future.

Changes to archery will most likely happen after the expansion is complete (as the staff is preoccupied with the development at the moment), and I'd prefer to have a big list of ideas as soon as we come around to it, instead of putting it off until something happens and having to deal with a lot of trial-and-error, bad ideas, frustration, etc.

The topics I've already got down are:

Innate bow critical hits.
Archery skill mods.
Archery buffs.

So there's no need to suggest any of these. There most likely won't be buffs that increase physical archery damage or increase hitrates or gives +%archery skill, so forget about those too. There could very well be, however, buffs that add procs or effects to archery. If you have any ideas about that, throw them down here (haha deathtouch? No.).

The major problem (as I see it) is the Archery Mastery AA. It's three steps (18 points) of a class AA (need pre-requisites and high level) that literally double your archery damage. Each step adds and extra +%damage to archery up to 100%.

Why is this a problem, you ask? Well, the problem is that it cripples archery DPS for anybody that doesn't have enough levels and AA to get the three steps. Who doesn't have levels and AAs :rolleyes:, you ask? Well, rangers between level one and fifty five, mainly. Not only that, but it means that anything related to archery HAS to be balanced for a ranger with AM3 in mind. That means that their archery is pathetically weak (50% of standard) until they blow all their AA on the skill (and I know all that AA was a waste now, but that'll change).

In my opinion, Archery Mastery needs to be changed to give another effect to the skill (that's not directly damage related), that's worth the 18AA some people have already spent. Or else, Archery Mastery has to be changed to give an effect wholly unrelated to archery, so that archery can be rebalanced without an AM3 Ranger in mind. Since we can't change AA structs, it has to be a three step AA, and has to be worth 3/6/9 points at the respective steps. This is where I've drawn a blank, and this is where you can help.

I'd like rangers and anybody (especially DarkArtist and Ravina) with ideas regarding archery and how it needs to be changed to throw down stuff as you think of it.

Anyways, keep this on-topic. This isn't a place to whine or start arguments, and I'll be deleting any posts that are inappropriate.
 
Havent played a Ranger since live but....


Maybe a short duration (6-18 sec) 3%, 6%, and 9% slow effect stackable with shm/enc slows?

Or equal chance to interupt spells (not stun)?

Or a combonation of such effects that add on to each other with each level purchased.

3aa's get you effect A.

6aa's gets you effect A plus effect B

9aa's gets you A, B, and C per shot.

Dont know if somehting like that is workable in the coding though.
 
First I’ll start off by saying that I don’t like the idea of any skill being balanced based on the high end game. In essence you are saying that you have to powergame your way to high level, gain the xp to get your AAs, join a raiding guild to aquire a decent bow and then you can aspire to be the “norm.” Things like this tend to discourage casual players. That being said, I understand that with the set up of the server, the relatively low player population, and the high end game being geared towards raids, it is a necessary evil so I will tailor my suggestions based on this.

Archery buffs: This one seems the easiest to change. DD or DoT procs. You can make them similar to the melee procs we already get with different damage types and amount based on level. You can spice it up a bit by adding some undead-only, debuff, snare, etc. This could definitely make archery a more viable option for the mid-level rangers.

Archery Mastery: Changing the +%damage on this AA means changing a lot more in order to sustain (and hopefully increase) the dps output of a high level ranger. One suggestion would be to put it in line with Melee Mastery. First and second levels increase your chance to shoot a double shot. Upon reaching the third level, your check for double shot never fails. The only problem is, does that put us in the same place? With your chance-to-hit increasing as your gear/stats get better, this could be rewarding for those at really high level. Does that just mean the balance is going to be off of the UberRanger_001 that is lvl 65, has 500 AAs, all the finest raid gear and manages to hit all the double shots? Another downside to this option is reworking the future stamina styles so there is not redundancy.

Or

Archery Mastery: Each level allows you to increase your archery skill cap. This might be an easier solution to balancing the overall dps from low level to high level. By “might” I mean I have no idea if this can even be coded or if it will mess with the skill mods when they are fixed. My only concern with this is if the skill can be raised high enough where it would actually be worth 18+ AAs.

Equipment: Better bows and arrows. These are supposed to be coming with expansion… so I’ll just leave it at that.

The biggest problem as I see is giving the midbie rangers some archery dps while not demeaning the high level dps. It takes a decent amount of work to gain those lvls and AAs and it should be rewarded. As I said before, archery is a class defining skill. There should not be fear of making it overpowered by adding some dps. Other classes have their own unique situational skills. This is the ranger’s.

This is all I have for now. I’ll try and think of more and add to the discussion.

~Ravina Whisperwind~
65 Sentinel <Ruin>
 
i think a chance to hit a mob with a % to interupt spells, or maybe if a crit lands a % to interupt

and automatic thing would be too powerful, but say a 30% chance to interupt a spell with a arrow

i think yall are touching on the concerns i have had with my ranger of late
 
I'm not in the high end or a ranger so maybe I should keep quiet, but this sounds like a brainstorming session so I'll throw some things out.

If procs are going to be an option for adding things they should be kind of weak, unresistable, and fire all the time. This would increase overall dps instead of burst dps, which is I think the point here.

Speratic proccing really doesn't increase overall dps that much unless its very powerful (in my experience)

Perhaps if you don't like that idea then the archery mastery could just add physical damage to the arrows fired?

Kind of like the arcane archer class from D&D :b. At the first level it would increase all arrow's damage's by 1 second level would increase them by a further 2 and the final one would be 3.

Of course this might be overpowering, I really don't know.

Anyways I'm tapped out.
 
I'd really like to see more distinct combat-styles (that aren't related to disciplines) emerge. Like in the case of rangers, melee or bowing, or with monks, fists or feet.

-Z
 
I just don't see what the big deal is with increasing archery damage by say 30 - 50 % across the board. It's so pitifully low at the moment it's not like the class is going to become overpowered. I've been grouping alot with a ranger with Eq/am3 and she says she's lucky to get a standard hit above 200 and this is with Nemmy's Headseeker (25/30).

What have they already lost in terms of dps?
-EQ doesnt work with magic arrows
-all atk buffs stripped away except for call of predator
-lvl 64 170dd self proc reduced to 80dd
-Archery damage made ridiculously low

You just dont see any other class that has been frankly "raped" of its abilities. Rogues and monks have been beefed up here and nobody says anything about that.

That being said, heres some of my suggestions

Archery Mastery
-------------------

AM1 - Summons a stack of 12 damage / 10 delay magic arrows. Reuse time: 5 minutes.

AM2 - Summons a stack of 15 damage / 15 delay magic arrows. Reuse time: 5 minutes.

AM3 - Summons a stack of 20 damage / 20 delay magic arrows. Reuse time: 5 minutes.

Maybe the third level could summon arrows with a proc effect too.


Alternatively:

AM1 - Gives the ranger the chance to perform a crippling blow at any point in the fight. (innate) Chance: 25%

AM2 - Increases AM1 to 35% and gives the ranger a 50% chance to fire a 2nd arrow.

AM3 - Increases AM1 to 45% and AM2 to 100%. (could maybe add a small unresistable dd proc too)


---
Now before anyone says, oh well that might be unbalanced I'd like you to consider that if these changes did happen, AM3 wouldn't still be giving the 30,60,100 % increase in bow damage. So it's not adding on top of what is already there, its replacing it and hopefully for the better.

But I do feel it necessary to say that I still think the overall best solution for time, balancing, work involved etc, is still to increase archery damage across the board by say 25% - 50%.

adding procs here and there or snares / interrupts is unworthy of the class AA and doesn't do much for sustained damage output.
 
Right now archery is underpowered to a extreme degree without AM3. With AM3, doubling your old damage, you basically do the exact same as your melee damage. This means pre-am3 rangers are doing prolly half the damage they should be doing if archery was balanced correctly, maybe even less. So, my suggestion, as long as you agree with what I just said...

1) Double across the board archery, making it as if all rangers had the old AM3. This would put archery and melee dps on the same level. If you think that rangers should always do more dps with bows than melees perhaps a 110% across the board boost.

2) Make AM3 like the other combat skills, offering improvements that are smaller, but yet still well worth it. Perhaps a 5/10/20 improvement, would put archery at 20% more than melee. Surely a AM3 ranger deserves to do 20% more damage than one without it.



These suggestions would let rangers of all levels enjoy using bows and have them as a viable option, as well as making archery dps more along the lines of being a reason to pick rangers for highlvl raiding.
 
I actually like Khalid's suggestion for the most part. I think it's ridiculous that rangers should have to spend 18 AA's just to bring their bow damage on par with their melee, as it currently is.

They should be doing equal damage with both types innately, if not a little more with a bow when considering roleplay aspects. I dont like the idea of spending 18AA for 20% increase however. This just seems too low.

While i understand there is a need to increase it conservatively to maintain the integrity of the custom world, I think it would have to be a little more or at least include another effect, to make it really a class defining skill.

If i may expand on Khalid's suggestion:


AM1 - 30% increase in damage, 5% chance to do a crippling blow.
AM2 - 40% increase in damage, 10% chance to do a crippling blow.
AM3 - 50% increase in damage, 15% chance to a crippling blow.

This is provided that archery damage tables are increased as per Khalids example.

It's still nowhere near the damage output of Live rangers, not by a long shot, but I'm sure most rangers would be very satisfied with this change. If this happens, rangers could be doing 50% more damage when using a bow over their melee, and they have a very small chance to get a crippling blow here and there.

It's important that Rangers are given something to compensate for the lowered damage output that they expect to receive upon reaching level 60, and earning 40+aa to gain these skills. Simply lowering the damage by a half is lazy and unimaginative and I expect will lead to our rangers leaving WR (especially considering what has already been stripped from them)
 
I'd like to start by saying that that I dont agree with the idea that archery balancing has to be done with taking into account rangers with AM3. Am3 is a skill unique to rangers which was supposed to allow them to go above and beyond the normal confines of archery damage. The way it seems right now is its sort of like curing the disease by killing the patient. If you wanted archery damage to remain low, you should have just lowered the damage increase in Archery Mastery from the beginning instead of modifying archery damage tables and ending up with the mess that it's in now.

Anyway heres some of my ideas.
--------------------
Assuming that the average archery hit right now is about 75 damage with a pretty bog standard bow like Crystalline bow (30/40) and that a "rebalanced" archery hit would be close to 100.
--------------------

Archery Mastery : Activated skill, Refresh : 10 minutes.

AM1 - Fires 10 shots instantly doing between 1 and 2 times normal damage for each shot. MIN dmg : 1k, MAX dmg: 2k.

AM2 - Fires 10 shots instantly doing between 1 and 3 times normal damage for each shot. MIN dmg : 1k, MAX dmg: 3k.

AM3 - Fires 10 shots instantly doing between 1 and 4 times normal damage each shot. MIN dmg : 1k, MAX dmg: 4k.

This would sort of make Archery Mastery like a mana burn skill but obviously nowhere near as powerful or effective.

OR

AM1 - 50% chance to fire a 2nd arrow.
AM2 - If AM1 check is successful, chance to fire a 3rd arrow.
AM3 - If AM2 check is successful, chance to fire a 4th arrow.

Someone good at stats could work out the probabilities and % chance.
Maybe each stage could also include a percentage chance to fire a "Head Shot" instantly slaying an NPC below level 54.
 
Just a note, Archery Mastery has to be a passive skill, it cannot be made into an active skill due to client restrictions.

And a little update. There are plans to up archery across the board and make AM increase it in smaller increments. This would make archery a little more interesting for non-rangers, while still making rangers the best archers and respectable DPS. Feel free to keep brainstorming, though. Ideas are always nice. :)
 
Make archery mastery giving you a chance to do double attacks on bows. Giving archer a 10 / 25 / 50 percent to do double attacks. Increase Archery damage as a whole with innate crits so that AAed archer only deals 50% more damage then without AA, instead of a whooping 100.
 
Nuralia said:
And a little update. There are plans to up archery across the board and make AM increase it in smaller increments. This would make archery a little more interesting for non-rangers, while still making rangers the best archers and respectable DPS. Feel free to keep brainstorming, though. Ideas are always nice. :)
Click to expand...


i'm very interested to know what preliminary % changes are being considered at this point.

What % is archery going to be upped by
What % is AM increments going to be

or at least what kind of % difference in overall dps is being considered for rangers with AM3 under the new archery system in comparison with the current system.
 
Few suggestions to improve archery across the board..

1) Ranged Auto Attack (or make it possible to make a macro that will repeat the ranged attack action until you turn it off)

2) Rangers should get a 10% natural chance to crit with a bow increasing to 15%, 20%, and 25% respectively through AM1, AM2, AM3.. (before you look into over/underblancing factors.. 25% is a VERY high chance to preform a critical attack that will add over a hundred damage to one attack every 4 hits..

3) Make it possible to purchase high level arrow fletching supplies once fletching is implemented at a much reduced cost to the user.. and able to craft magic arrows at 1 stack per arrow head and shaft.. (this way can build arrows at aprox 1/20th the cost, provided you get high enough fletching skill.. and the requirement to make the good arrows should be fairly high to be a money sink for higher level rangers and other ranged professions that want to rely on their bows yet make it worth wile in cost/effectiveness.. highest level arrows made by fletching could rival the current arrows by being 6... 7.. maybe even 8 damage, but with a magic tag so EQ cannot be used with them.. makes a nice money sink for a charactor class while offering them a major boost in damage for an effective cost.)

4) Rangers should have a group archery accuracy buff that adds an extra 20, 40, and 60% to accuracies as well as 1, 3, and 5% crit chance on an archery attack.. This way it will slightly improve chances for non ranger classes to actually score a critical hit with their bows.. it will also improve the rangers chance to critical hit with their own bows.. To compensate for that, and I know alot of other classes are going to hate this idea, but remove the chance to critical on a bow attack through the means of AA Fury advancements that should only give a chance to critical in melee combat.. If you think about it for a while, rangers are the only ones that should be able to critical with a bow.. or to be fair to the other classes, at least cut the chances to critical with a bow through alternate means (IE Warrior natural crit chance or melee crit AA..) in half.

5) A new stamina style set for rangers that augments archery use.. as well as a few defensive melee styles.. maybe one offensive one. Just a few of the ideas for the new archery styles..

Point Blank Shot - Level 20: As the ranger gets more intimate with their bows, they learn to make quick shots at a close range that arent quite as powerful as when they are able to fully aim their bow, yet the close range execution makes it worth wile.. = Ranger removes the range restictions from their archery attacks, allowing them to execute less damaging shots while in melee range of the target and while under attack.

Snipe - Level 30: A ranger is very proficient with their bows and through training have improved their vision allowing them to shoot targets further away without bringing attention to themselves. These long distance attacks usually require precise aiming and increase both damage and delay of another attack significantly.. = Ranger extends the max damage of their allowed attack by 50 meters, also adding the effect that if the target is over 100 meters away it will not gain aid from it's friends allowing the ranger to pull a target more successfully. This style Doubles the amount of damage the ranger does with their bow, yet triples the delay of attacking again..

Improved Point Blank Shot - Level 50: After a lifetime of familiarizing themselves with their bows rangers are able to attack at any range without a second thought. = All bow damage executed in point blank range does the normal ranged damage for a ranger.

Rangers Fury - Level 60: Complete mastery of their bows allow the ranger to make quick, damaging shots to the target sacrificing their overall precision for speed and power.. = Damage is multiplied by 150% and delay is cut in half.. however precision takes a major hit cutting them down by 75% (this one is designed for the rangers that do have the archery buffs, and Archery Mastery will increase their precision so they break about even if they werent using this style, but also didnt have Archery Mastery or the buffs.)

Those are just a few ideas I had for the ranger class to compensate for their bow usage. :)
 
quiver haste would be another way to improve archery dps... make the really good quivers (or all quivers) ranger only to keep them ahead of others in the archery department
 
AM has been changed to a max of 50% extra damage. Archery has been considerably increased in base damage, especially if you use good arrows.
 
?

what dps is sutabele for a ranger in compareance to say a rogue or monk?

according to developer that is?


If lets say a rogue (when standing behind mob) dich out 150 dps, would a reanger with same "standard" of eqip and buffs dich out 50, 74,100 or 125 dps?

just wanna know what develpers hade in mind?

i totaly understand that balancing ranger Archery from 1-65 is a real hard task, hopefully is high on prio list and i know developers working there asses of to get all us players happy =)


best regards
(p.s im a dyslectic(?), so no flame d.s)
/LeeK
 
The change in archery damage is a nice improvement but I have mixed feelings about it.

It still doesn't seem enough on it's own, especially considering AM3 has been halved. It also seems like the x2 bonus against non-moving, non-rooted targets which rangers have, is either gone or not working properly.

I've noticed absolutely no difference in damage between hitting moving targets or still ones. So to spice things up a little and make am3 truely a class-defining skill for rangers I think it would be cool if the following was added:

Am1 - 15% increased damage, 25% chance to land x2 bonus on any target, moving or not.

am2 - 25% increased damage, 50% chance to land x2 bonus on any target, moving or not.

am3 - 50% increased damage, and ranger will always do x2 bonus on any target, moving or otherwise.

So with this change, a ranger with AM3 can effectively do the same damage to moving targets (i.e. when bow-kiting) as he/she could do against non-moving targets (i.e. in a group ) making him/her a true master of archery.



---------
Dukat
http://www.wintersroar.com/wanelo/chardump.php?charid=110280
 
Can we have some feedback from the devs as to which ideas are being developed/ considered for improving archery further for rangers, particularly with regards to Archery Mastery.


-------
Dukat
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom