Race/Class Restrictions

[Rorne]

Ever since the racial rebalancing I've been thinking about how we still use the original race/class restrictions of EQ and how we really don't need to be. I know it sounds kind of crazy and I know we can't alter the client but I think we could avoid it seeming hacky or jarring by just building it as an intro step in the Dream.

Basically I envision it like this: You start out in the dream as a generic wisp / soul or whatever at which point you choose your race, class, and starting stats and progress on through the dream as normal. There are a few kinks to work out such as beastlord pets and monk animations but I know the beastlord pets at least could be tackled. I honestly think this idea has a lot of merit and may even help boost the population/lower levels if only for a time as everyone rolls up cool new combos which would just be a nice bonus.

Anyways let the discussion fly, my only request is that you don't start talking about how you would want a race change if this happened because honestly nobody cares and it just makes you sound like a dink.

 

[Rorne]

They'd still need to go through the client character creation screen in full before the client would agree to let them to connect to The Dream on their new char.

Starting town, starting faction and/or newb quest availability would be an issue.

Yeah the starting faction and newbie quests stuff is a good point and could be a bit of a barrier. I was going to talk about that and class trainers a bit but I forgot.

As far as the character roll-up prior to entering the dream I figured it wouldn't be that off-putting as long as the player understands what exactly is going on once they're in the game.

 

[Cinn]

I like this idea a lot and remember talking with gerick about it a long time ago. There are a lot of little things to work out with it but it is also a really neat suggestion and would offer lots of fun combos for people to try out.

 

[Rorne]

I'm trying to come up with which classes do not have newbie quests in a wide enough selection of locations to allow for any race to do them (assuming they can be started at dubious). So far what springs to mind are:

-Rangers
-Paladins
-Druids
-Bards

Although this might be a non-issue with the faction bump classes get with their respective guilds.

As for some fun pipedream stuff how about Beastlord pets (and trying not to be too crazy with selections).

Dark Elf - Bat (They both love the niiiiiiiight)
Dwarf - Rat (With that charisma it should probably be a skunk)
Erudite - Lion (Regal animal for a regal people)
Froglok - ???
Gnome - Clockwork Spider (What a bunch of poseurs)
Half Elf - ???
Halfling - Fire Beetle (Memories of Misty Thicket)
High Elf - ???
Human - Black Wolf (Boring and classic for the baseline race)
Wood Elf - ???

 

[Mythryn]

Froglok - Hopper thingy
Half Elf - Snow Bunny / bixie
High Elf - Will-o-Wisp
Wood Elf - Treant

Dwarves should get those mole/badger people. Gnomes should get those badass spiders that used to ruin poor little gnomes lives for centuries.

 

[cian2]

VAH SHIR EVERYTHING

 

[Nwaij]

Froglok - DRU murk pet thing!

Starting town, starting faction and/or newb quest availability would be an issue.

A bit hacky, but wouldn't it be possible to give those whisps some flags, and when hailing The Last, they eat a corresponding class/race change, appropriate faction adjustments, and get their bind set to wherever it needs to be before getting booted from the dream?

 

[oozu1234]

So what im getting from this. Disable all classes and races. Except for human/warrior at create char screen. Add a 4th dude at the end of the dream with options of race change. Then a 5th for class change. And then finally alter the chick in the middle that ports you out to give you options on where you want to start out....?

Also.... iksar/druid for the win.

Edit: just had a thought.... just disable all races but humans... and keep all classes for humans open and add only an npc at the end of the dream to allow you to change races.

 

[oozu1234]

So throw in vahshir too then. From outside of the dev code box seems like the simplest route. But i have no idea what im talking about either

 

[Rorne]

So what im getting from this. Disable all classes and races. Except for human/warrior at create char screen. Add a 4th dude at the end of the dream with options of race change. Then a 5th for class change. And then finally alter the chick in the middle that ports you out to give you options on where you want to start out....?

It would probably be better to have you select your class and race right at the beginning fellow you talk to and class/race/stat selection could all be done with just one NPC. Also you have to go through the dream anyways to get into the gameworld so I don't think an NPC going hey dude here is some flavour text about what your past/path in life was/is and having people just select their stuff there instead of the screen they were looking at 5 seconds ago really bloats the process.

Actually you could even use this opportunity to cram in some intro lore about the races. IE:

Hail, High Elf Dream Dude
High Elf Dream Dude says, 'Yo, this is, like a dream state mannn. Tell me of your people'
/cm d6 I am a dark elf, we were displaced yada yada
/cm d10 I am a vah shir, we got blown up and everyone rejoiced but then we came back and everyone hates us
High Elf Dream Dude says, 'And what was your calling'
/cm d2 I chose the path of magic
High Elf Dream Dude says, 'COOL'
/cm d3 I am a necromancer

 

[oozu1234]

It would probably be better to have you select your class and race right at the beginning fellow you talk to and class/race/stat selection could all be done with just one NPC

As far as i know the client wont allow this. You would HAVE to pick some sort of default class and race before you can even get into the dream. Thats why i said disable all races on the create char screen minus human and vah. Between the two you can choose any class. Then yes throw in your idea, alloe The Guide to change your race.

The only real obstacle i can forsee is the say base int of an erudite vs human. Would that adjust with a race change or just the skills boosts and such that comes with a particular race.

And say if it is possible to change your class once you have created a character. I would make an individual npc at the start of the dream to represent every class/race and when hailed the npcs would say "hail, %t i am a Dark elf < insert race descriptions and bonuses here >. And same thing for every individual class.

And with that system you could make it so you can only choose say a human monk at char create. And then really creat your toon in the dream.

 

[oozu1234]

Sorry for my horribke spelling and puncuation. Writing these posts on my phone and touchscreen keyboards and i dont getnalong.

 

[Rorne]

As far as i know the client wont allow this. You would HAVE to pick some sort of default class and race before you can even get into the dream. Thats why i said disable all races on the create char screen minus human and vah. Between the two you can choose any class. Then yes throw in your idea, alloe The Guide to change your race.

You misunderstand. I know the client won't allow it and I am saying let the player go through the clients character creation if they want but you spawn as a blank no matter what. My response after quoting you was just saying that you'd want class to be established before the challenges because the spell casting one exists and it's kind of an important step for people new to the game plus it would just flow better in general.

And say if it is possible to change your class once you have created a character. I would make an individual npc at the start of the dream to represent every class/race and when hailed the npcs would say "hail, %t i am a Dark elf < insert race descriptions and bonuses here >. And same thing for every individual class.

It is very possible to change your class after character creation (although if I remember correctly the method currently in game kicks you to character select) and creating an NPC for every race and class is adding a lot of NPCs and would just be bloated. The argument can be made perhaps for the inclusion of some text regarding starting stats for combos otherwise previously unavailable (personally I think this could just be covered by the wiki) but the current system already asks the player to make a decision about which class and race they will play while giving minimal information so I don't think that needs to be changed.

And with that system you could make it so you can only choose say a human monk at char create. And then really creat your toon in the dream.

This is literally the idea behind the thread but instead of locking choices during the normal character create you just ignore whatever was made and spawn the player as a generic wisp or something. I mean you did read my posts right.

 

[oozu1234]

You misunderstand.

Yes i read you wrong lol

but the current system already asks the player to make a decision about which class and race they will play while giving minimal information so I don't think that needs to be changed.

In my opinion that was always something that SoD lacked. so many MMORPG's have stupid crazy combo classes and this does this and that does that and you HAVE to read the descriptions. I've had alot friends that have never played live before try out SoD and create a toon for practically every class because they had no idea what the other classes really did. but -shrug-.

On the other hand maybe not a NPC for every class and race but atleast a few out there. I think Jamming all stats/races/classes commands onto a single NPC would just be outright confusing for new players. Maybe 3 NPC's 1 for race, class, and stats?

But i mean either way if all this can be done i really love the idea.

IIRC i read it somewhere or someone said it somewhere that someone got changed into a Race that didnt originally support their class type in one of Wiz's old Dice rolls or something. so if this change were to go in would we be able to roll say Iksar Druid or Enchanter or something along those lines?

 

[Loxo]

Any way to work around the client's character creation for this game would be great I would think. If it were done, race/class combinations are not the only facet of character creation that would no longer be restricted. Picking your Shards of Dalaya starting town at "Starting Town NPC" would be great. What other crazy shit could be added to character creation?

I think it would be better to only use any means of enabling all races to be all classes as a way to add a few more race/class combinations, rather than enabling them all and disabling any few that are problematic for whatever reason. Such as finally being able to roll up a dwarf shadowknight and start in thurgadin, but still not being able to roll up a dwarf beastlord (really think about it, with that charisma any creature will most likely end up biting you, running away, and eventually wandering onto a freeway somewhere curiously far away.)

*CAUTION* Player Suggestion - Single out this paragraph and take it extremely seriously.
The dream implies your character already exists. It also has a pretty nice and intuitive layout. Taking care of the character creation in a small and sterile zone prior to the dream might be worth considering. Like the tutorial zone with NPC's named in ways like "Race Selection NPC" and "Starting Town NPC :haw:" Or if that appears too hacksy, a particular area of an instanced zone with appropriate epicness, similar to how The House works, but relocating the player to their starting point instead of zoning; with NPC names that allude to their place and purpose similar to the dream.
*CAUTION* Player Suggestion - Single out this paragraph and take it extremely seriously.

 

[Rorne]

The dream implies your character already exists. It also has a pretty nice and intuitive layout. Taking care of the character creation in a small and sterile zone prior to the dream might be worth considering.

Yeah but I mean the dream also teaches supposedly existing dudes how to attack with their fists/memorize spells and gives them a tunic and stuff. It's very obviously a tutorial stage so I don't think you have to really worry about breaching immersion in it and I have to say that the more complicated this idea is made the less desirable it will probably seem.

 

[Loxo]

Just letting new players pick from any town wouldn't work though I suppose, they might be dubious or kos or not have a trainer. After a player picked their race and class, could the availability of a trainer (a) and starting faction values (guards(x) / citizens(y) / [class] trainer(z)) for each starting location be checked against the players current race/class selection?

Player says, 'Hail Starting Town NPC'
Starting Town NPC says, 'Hail, you can start in these locations, just ask about any one of them.'
-/cm d1 Southern Newport
-/cm d2 Erudin Palace
-/cm d3 ....

Player says, 'Southern Newport.'
Starting Town NPC says, 'based on a, you will have a trainer to teach you the skills of your profession. based on x the people will look your way apprehensively, based on y the guards will glower at you dubiously, and based on z your class trainer will regard you indifferently. This town should be relatively easy to start in.
-/cm d1 'The Towns again please'
-/cm d2 'I want to start here'

...
...
Player says, 'Grobb'
Starting Town NPC says, 'based on a, there's no one here to train you so you will have to travel to learn new skills. The citizens will try to kill you, the guards will try to kill you, and if there were a trainer he would try to kill you. This town would prove to be virtually impossible for this race/class combination to start in.'

 

[Loxo]

Yeah but I mean the dream also teaches supposedly existing dudes how to attack with their fists/memorize spells and gives them a tunic and stuff. It's very obviously a tutorial stage so I don't think you have to really worry about breaching immersion in it and I have to say that the more complicated this idea is made the less desirable it will probably seem.

Ok questionably witty remark retracted.

The dream --- ----- --- -- -- . It also has a pretty nice and intuitive layout. Taking care of the character creation in a small and sterile zone prior to the dream might be worth considering. It's not so much immersion as just not crowding up a pretty well laid out zone for what it does.

and I have to say that the more complicated this idea is made the less desirable it will probably seem.

The sky is blue, roses are red, clouds are white or grey or maybe purplish orange depending on time of day and smog, water is wet, salt tastes salty, circles are round, ...

 

[Rorne]

Ok questionably witty remark retracted.

The dream --- ----- --- -- -- . It also has a pretty nice and intuitive layout. Taking care of the character creation in a small and sterile zone prior to the dream might be worth considering. It's not so much immersion as just not crowding up a pretty well laid out zone for what it does.




The sky is blue, roses are red, clouds are white or grey or maybe purplish orange depending on time of day and smog, water is wet, salt tastes salty, circles are round, ...

I mean you can be snide but I think going hmmmm we're going to need what is essentially an island of voices for class picking is just needlessly complicating the entire concept.

Class (barring the classchanging drops you to character select caveat), race, and stats can all be handled by the highelf that is standing right beside you when you zone into the dream and the entire thing can be sold as your consciousness emerging within the dream "I remember, I'm a blah blah". Players in the current system are already asked to pick a class and race from a list with practically no information and yet we have all survived that process this long why convolute the entire bloody thing. Running through the dialogue would essentially be HEY I'M A DARK ELF, HEY I'M A SHAMAN, PUT SOME OF MY STATS IN CHA AND SOME IN STA with some worked in flavour text and on you go to punch a barbarian. No extra zone needed and no extra NPCs needed.

 

[oozu1234]

Running through the dialogue would essentially be HEY I'M A DARK ELF, HEY I'M A SHAMAN, PUT SOME OF MY STATS IN CHA AND SOME IN STA with some worked in flavour text and on you go to punch a barbarian. No extra zone needed and no extra NPCs needed.

+1 i agree. you guy's/Girl should do this