Question About Focuses

Brimztone

Brimztone

Dalayan Elder
I recently was wondering exactly what order Focuses are applied to spells in. I asked a member of the staff and was told that they were pretty sure asking Wiz via a thread would be the best way to get an answer as he wasn't sure who else would know. So here goes.

When applying focuses to spells, specifically damage focuses(Damage Increment, Elemental Focuses[Tarhyl's Rage, Shojar's Cruelty], Specializations, ect.) what order are they applied?

I would assume Tomes add to the base, but I wasn't sure about the rest. Could someone who knows, or Wiz answer this for me?

Thanks.
 
This can be pretty easily tested in game. If you want, I will help you with the numbers in determining the order. I know how bard mods work, but not sure on the focus effects as I do not use (many of) them.
 
Pretty sure bonuses are not cumulative.

Cumulative example:
Base damage * multiplier * multiplier = total
100+ 10% = 110 + 1% = 111.1 etc

Instead it's

Base damage + Base damage * multiplier + Base damage * multiplier = total
100 + 100*10% + 100*1% = 111

In other words, the order in which they are applied is irrelevant, and due to the way asynchronous applications work you might not even be able to guarantee any order. You shouldn't even need to test this. If you know you the total modifiers and the base damage, you can probably figure it out offhand since you probably know how much you usually nuke for.
 
Order does matter if the bonuses are not applied like you stated, but instead the bonuses are all added up and then multiplied.

Example: Base of 1000 nuke, with DI 7, and 6% magic focus

He wants to know if it is 1000*(1.27) or if it is 1000(1.21)(1.06)

See a difference?

I still think this is very easy to test, however, and can be figured out rather quickly with a bit of nuking on trash mobs or whatever. (yes, there will be resists, but with some common knowledge and a decent sample size, you can easily figure out the max damage of your nuke)
 
Spiritplx said:
He wants to know if it is 1000*(1.27) or if it is 1000(1.21)(1.06)
Click to expand...

In the EQEmu code it's 1000*(1.27). I can't say if Wiz has changed this or not, but you're right it should be easy to figure out for someone who wants to try.

Manguadi said:
Pretty sure bonuses are not cumulative.

Cumulative example:
Base damage * multiplier * multiplier = total
100+ 10% = 110 + 1% = 111.1 etc

Instead it's

Base damage + Base damage * multiplier + Base damage * multiplier = total
100 + 100*10% + 100*1% = 111

In other words, the order in which they are applied is irrelevant, and due to the way asynchronous applications work you might not even be able to guarantee any order. You shouldn't even need to test this. If you know you the total modifiers and the base damage, you can probably figure it out offhand since you probably know how much you usually nuke for.
Click to expand...

In EQEmu it's actually:
Code: 
modifier = 100
modifier += FocusEffect
modifier += AAEffect
finalDamage = (dmg * modifier) / 100

So, the effect is that same as 100 + 100*10% + 100*1% = 111, but it's not especially complicated and it's not asynchronous in any way. Somebody is probably going to have to do a little bit of testing because the effects of focuses are known, but the effects of specialization and AAs are not.
 
Wesell said:
Somebody is probably going to have to do a little bit of testing because the effects of focuses are known, but the effects of specialization and AAs are not.
Click to expand...

Not sure on the AA's as there are a ton of AA's for different classes, but specializations (100% sure) add to the base damage of nukes/dots/melee/etc. (and by 100% I mean 100% for bards, and would make an assumption it affects all classes the same way).
 
Spiritplx said:
Not sure on the AA's as there are a ton of AA's for different classes, but specializations (100% sure) add to the base damage of nukes/dots/melee/etc. (and by 100% I mean 100% for bards, and would make an assumption it affects all classes the same way).
Click to expand...

Sure, I didn't mean figuring out what the mod is applied to, just that most people probably don't know what their Energy/Defense mod is. It will be helpfull to figure this out before testing the other types of mods to see if any of them are applied to damage that has already been modified by something else.

I think we'll probably find that all mods are applied to the base damage, and that one isn't more important than another.
 
Spiritplx said:
Order does matter if the bonuses are not applied like you stated, but instead the bonuses are all added up and then multiplied.

Example: Base of 1000 nuke, with DI 7, and 6% magic focus

He wants to know if it is 1000*(1.27) or if it is 1000(1.21)(1.06)

See a difference?

I still think this is very easy to test, however, and can be figured out rather quickly with a bit of nuking on trash mobs or whatever. (yes, there will be resists, but with some common knowledge and a decent sample size, you can easily figure out the max damage of your nuke)
Click to expand...

you just repeated the same argument manguadi tried to illustrate as his counterpoint.
 
Wesell said:
Sure, I didn't mean figuring out what the mod is applied to, just that most people probably don't know what their Energy/Defense mod is. It will be helpfull to figure this out before testing the other types of mods to see if any of them are applied to damage that has already been modified by something else.

I think we'll probably find that all mods are applied to the base damage, and that one isn't more important than another.
Click to expand...

Ah, gotcha. I know the bard specialization for dots/nukes (whichever that on is) maxes at 12.5%. Never wanted to try to test and guesstimate the melee specs or the resistance specs. I think I also calculated wizard nukes doing ~13.6% more with max specialization points (was probably more like 13.5, or I wanted it to be for uniformity sake).

With instruments, all instrument mods (from instruments and AA) are added and then multiplied instead of each being multiplied separately.

(sorry all of this testing is for a bard only, but I am a bard, so go figure)

Lairbe05 said:
you just repeated the same argument manguadi tried to illustrate as his counterpoint.
Click to expand...

No, he said that it wouldn't matter how the mods are stacked, and it indeed does matter. If you cannot tell the numbers in my example are different, get out a calculator and double check your work.
 
manguadi used a different way of showing 100 (1.21)(1.06) by turning the function into addition of a percentage, yes, but it's still the same end result; a cumulative (where order DOES matter) result.

EDIT he says all of this in his original post, there's no reason for me to argue about it. go re-read it.
 
It should be very easy to tell if order is significant, just test a nuke with DI and without, you'll lose either x% (x = boost from DI) of the base damage and know that order isn't significant or you'll know it is significant. Did we already confirm that order is significant somehow?
 
Like I said, order is significant for bards, but in general i was saying that how they are multiplied is significant, not that the order in how you multiply them is significant. I think we may have all been saying the same thing (since it really is an easy concept) but thinking the other party meant something differently. I thought Manguadi was stating that the order wouldn't matter meaning that 1000(1.27)=1000(1.21)(1.06), which is false.

With bards it goes..

Base(tomes)(specializations)(instruments+AA)
 
Sorry guys, I think I polluted this thread with dubious, 5 AM math. If anything I say here contradicts my previous post, refer to this one instead.

Order doesn't matter whether you're adding or multiplying. Addition and Multiplication are commutative (I'm pretty sure that's the word) which means specifically that order doesn't matter. Here's an example using Felyn's mods on the relic dot (sorry I don't know the AA mods offhand).

385 (base dmg) * 1.2202 (tome mod) * 2.30 (drum instrument mod) * 1.1 (spec mod) = 1188.5

Here, a different way

1.2202 * 385 * 1.1 * 2.3 = 1188.5

And another way

2.3 * 1.2202 * 385 *1.1 = 1188.5

So I used a calculator for these. But anyway, if the bonuses add together or multiply together, order will never matter. Still, I suspect they add together.
 
Manguadi said:
385 (base dmg) * 1.2202 (tome mod) * 2.30 (drum instrument mod) * 1.1 (spec mod) = 1188.5

Here, a different way

1.2202 * 385 * 1.1 * 2.3 = 1188.5

And another way

2.3 * 1.2202 * 385 *1.1 = 1188.5
Click to expand...

Right, but the normal EQEmu distro uses this method: 385 * (1+ 0.2202 + 1.30 + 0.1) = 1008.777. SoD has a lot going on that's not in the normal EQEmu distro so we don't really know if Wiz changed the code that was already there for this or if that 385 gets tome or spec modded before getting to this part of the damage calc, ect...

My point is that you are right that order doesn't matter if the damage mod fomula looks like that, but we don't know that the damage formula looks like that.
 
Wesell said:
Right, but the normal EQEmu distro uses this method: 385 * (1+ 0.2202 + 1.30 + 0.1) = 1008.777. SoD has a lot going on that's not in the normal EQEmu distro so we don't really know if Wiz changed the code that was already there for this or if that 385 gets tome or spec modded before getting to this part of the damage calc, ect...

My point is that you are right that order doesn't matter if the damage mod fomula looks like that, but we don't know that the damage formula looks like that.
Click to expand...
That is the reason why I made this thread. I wasn't sure how much Wiz altered in the formulas.
 
I'm pretty sure it just takes and adds up the modifiers then multiplies that by the base (So base(modA+modB+...+modLast) )
 
Temellin said:
I'm pretty sure it just takes and adds up the modifiers then multiplies that by the base (So base(modA+modB+...+modLast) )
Click to expand...

It's probably not precisely like this, but that's equivalent to what I think it is.

Brimz, do you know your total mods? Do you know your base damage?
 
Manguadi said:
It's probably not precisely like this, but that's equivalent to what I think it is.

Brimz, do you know your total mods? Do you know your base damage?
Click to expand...
Yeah I am about to try and test it, I just haven't had much time until now.


EDIT:Brimz, 65 Gnome Mage, 10PM In Game.

Relic: Bladewind - 1520 damage

Base nuke - 1734(+214, 14.1%?)

With DI7, Without Magic Focus - 2132 (+398, 22.9%?)

Without DI7, With Magic Focus - 1838(+104, 5.9%?)

With DI7 and Magic Focus - 2260(+526, 30.3%?)

Max Energy/Defense Spec, and the item focii are affected by my Gnome innate Bonus(+10% of the Focus)

EDIT2: With Cunning

Base: 2081

With DI7, no Magic Focus: 2479

Without DI7, With Magic Focus: 2205

With Both: 2627
 
That's a bit odd. Did you double check that you have no other DI? You should be getting a lot more out of DI7 according to fomelo.
 
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