well like i said ashpyre needs a look if not to change the elemental dmg to just give it like another focus effect.
its overall a great idea. Though i am concerned about becoming SoDWoW.
Question about Elemental Damage Changes:
- Thread starter Apokriphos
- Start date
- Status
well like i said ashpyre needs a look if not to change the elemental dmg to just give it like another focus effect.
its overall a great idea. Though i am concerned about becoming SoDWoW.
stope21
Dalayan Elder
I really liked the idea of tomes, but I am pretty skeptical on this.
I think its a very creative concept, but to me it seems like there will be 2 issues:
1) A gearing issue for players. Players will now want a set of elemental armor in addition to their other armor sets. This will cause them to be frequently changing gear in/out gear for optimization on specific encounter which frankly I think takes away from the fun factor of the game. I want to fight, not fashion design. Furthermore(although small), it will be consuming more space in our already limited inventories and banks as players will be stocking swap gear. As a whole, I think upgrades should be upgrades for everything(or at least a broad number of things).. not just specifics.
2) A massive balancing issue. Thaz gear/augs have been in constant change and still are not seemingly finalized. Elemental armor and balancing seems like a much more complex concept than just balancing stats on items. I feel this could lead to player frustrations as they will attempt to plan on what is best for them to try to get, acquire some or all, and then later it is changed making their efforts a different value than expected. I like knowing what I'm going to get, then getting it when I finish and keeping it. It brings out the achievement factor in a game. Getting something unexpected because of difficulties in balancing can take that achievement away from the challenge.
I'm not saying it can't work, as I haven't seen it implemented, I am just very skeptical for the reasons listed.
Yes, I do understand its an improvement to every character. But in a progressive rpg, generally everything you do is a means to improvement. Saying people are dumb for arguing against improvement is logical. However it is illogical in that you are assuming there arn't other options to improve your character.
I also am much more a fan of focus effects than elemental damage. Mostly because I like to think that everything is getting modified by the other inclusive descriptions of effects in the game. Like shojar's cruelty and the like are supposed to "increase all cold damage by 6%." Why is elemental spell damage exclusive from these descriptions of effects? Or specializations and tomes reading something along the lines of "increase all spell damage." For this reason, I would rather see it as a series of small incremented focii. Like Fire Focus I, II, III, etc. It would also bring scaling, which I greatly enjoy.
I think its a very creative concept, but to me it seems like there will be 2 issues:
1) A gearing issue for players. Players will now want a set of elemental armor in addition to their other armor sets. This will cause them to be frequently changing gear in/out gear for optimization on specific encounter which frankly I think takes away from the fun factor of the game. I want to fight, not fashion design. Furthermore(although small), it will be consuming more space in our already limited inventories and banks as players will be stocking swap gear. As a whole, I think upgrades should be upgrades for everything(or at least a broad number of things).. not just specifics.
2) A massive balancing issue. Thaz gear/augs have been in constant change and still are not seemingly finalized. Elemental armor and balancing seems like a much more complex concept than just balancing stats on items. I feel this could lead to player frustrations as they will attempt to plan on what is best for them to try to get, acquire some or all, and then later it is changed making their efforts a different value than expected. I like knowing what I'm going to get, then getting it when I finish and keeping it. It brings out the achievement factor in a game. Getting something unexpected because of difficulties in balancing can take that achievement away from the challenge.
I'm not saying it can't work, as I haven't seen it implemented, I am just very skeptical for the reasons listed.
Yes, I do understand its an improvement to every character. But in a progressive rpg, generally everything you do is a means to improvement. Saying people are dumb for arguing against improvement is logical. However it is illogical in that you are assuming there arn't other options to improve your character.
I also am much more a fan of focus effects than elemental damage. Mostly because I like to think that everything is getting modified by the other inclusive descriptions of effects in the game. Like shojar's cruelty and the like are supposed to "increase all cold damage by 6%." Why is elemental spell damage exclusive from these descriptions of effects? Or specializations and tomes reading something along the lines of "increase all spell damage." For this reason, I would rather see it as a series of small incremented focii. Like Fire Focus I, II, III, etc. It would also bring scaling, which I greatly enjoy.
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stope21
Dalayan Elder
Basically in short I am very appreciative to play on a server with such talented developers that could code such a thing. Furthermore the creativity of this concept is astounding and I commend the efforts put forth towards this.
However, I feel that instead of elemental damage, a new line of of focus effects could be implemented.
This would:
-Not require rebalancing of all the prior elemental damages from lower teirs such as the frozen mallet from SE.
-Allow people who have tomes, diety spec, etc to continue to receive scaled benefits from these things as they should.
However, I feel that instead of elemental damage, a new line of of focus effects could be implemented.
This would:
-Not require rebalancing of all the prior elemental damages from lower teirs such as the frozen mallet from SE.
-Allow people who have tomes, diety spec, etc to continue to receive scaled benefits from these things as they should.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
I actually agree with this 95%. The 5% that I would change would make it so that instead of a new line of focus effects, get rid of Mind Shield and replace it with this new Elemental Damage, with a cap of something like 100.
vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Thank fucking god. Mages will be ending up with 11 foci to be relatively important come ikisith (as will necros) already (12 if one counts duration inc, which I do not, though for pet buffs it is handy, but too much is too much). Tbh some combined foci might be nice, along the lines of the experimental runes types we see in the early game. In particular I'm thinking of companion strength and health. Maybe companion enhancement for example instead. Would give a bit more variety to gear selections for both, lessening the must have nature of it for mages, and allowing the limited slots the top foci is found on to gain some choice. But kinda a digression on my part.
Mythryn
Dalayan Master
I just hope the Dev team realizes the repercussions of high elemental damage on certain classes, such as Clerics and Bards. Clerics have their already crazy hammer proc (250 damage, magic) as well as Divine Rage (275). The Hammer and Divine rage both proc a ton, and since the elemental damage is additive, a suit of say, 50 or more magic damage is going to be fairly outrageous. The same goes for Bards, with their innate proc (140 damage) and their higher proc rate, as well as two weapons that proc. Having any serious amount of magic damage on these classes is going to seriously unbalance them.
Also the fact that elemental damage won't count on RBoW or any unresistable damage spell is sad.
Also the fact that elemental damage won't count on RBoW or any unresistable damage spell is sad.
Xeldan
Staff Emeritus
I'm pretty sure if it becomes a problem it can be disabled for specific classes or spells. Clerics shouldn't get the shaft just because of their hammer proc -- they have other spells that would benefit from +Magic damage too -- so if it's a problem then the hammer will get the... axe... from benefiting from elemental damage.
It's pretty much that simple.
Alternatively, anything that is a proc or instant cast could just be changed to not benefit too.
It's pretty much that simple.
Alternatively, anything that is a proc or instant cast could just be changed to not benefit too.
Wesell
Dalayan Elder
Because it's apparently only going to be only a minor bonus I'm not too concerned about this change, but the flat nature of the bonus does seem pretty inconsistent with the rest of the SoD game mechanics. Almost every other factor outside of the gear and spells works in such a way that the relative power of two pieces of gear or two spells remains unchanged even as a player gets access to more powerful versions of these effects. Consider an existing feature with very similar properties: external bane damage.
Changing the elemental damage bonus to work more like this would probably cause problems for calculating the bonus for DoTs so let me address that. In a system similar to the external bane damage system you will probably have much harder time calculating the damage bonus to be added to the final tick of a dot, but keep the problem of losing bonus damage when it is spread too thin.
Here's an example formula for the kind of system I think would be cool:
13(fire dmg)/2000(the "full" damage number) * 420(the spell base damage) + X(random number between 0 and .99)
This would give the bonus damage a chance to get bumped up relative to how close you are to getting a guaranteed extra point of damage. And would remove the possibility that itemization can cause unintended side-effects on spell balance.
As has already been pointed out worn elemental damage would need to get very big before balance would really be affected in any significant way and there aren't any plans to go over the top with worn elemental damage, but still I couldn't help but give my feedback on the issue.
Changing the elemental damage bonus to work more like this would probably cause problems for calculating the bonus for DoTs so let me address that. In a system similar to the external bane damage system you will probably have much harder time calculating the damage bonus to be added to the final tick of a dot, but keep the problem of losing bonus damage when it is spread too thin.
Here's an example formula for the kind of system I think would be cool:
13(fire dmg)/2000(the "full" damage number) * 420(the spell base damage) + X(random number between 0 and .99)
This would give the bonus damage a chance to get bumped up relative to how close you are to getting a guaranteed extra point of damage. And would remove the possibility that itemization can cause unintended side-effects on spell balance.
As has already been pointed out worn elemental damage would need to get very big before balance would really be affected in any significant way and there aren't any plans to go over the top with worn elemental damage, but still I couldn't help but give my feedback on the issue.
stope21
Dalayan Elder
I never said the focus effect had to be huge. It could be made as small as the elemental damage is. Like could be a 0.25% focus. I just think it should scale w/ tomes, and other bonuses so that players who have taken the time to get these things continue to get the full definition of the benefit from them. It would be a small small mod (as multiplying 0.25% * 25% (max tomes) is absolutely miniscule. But I still think the players should get that maybe 1 extra damage that it could result from a conceptual stand point.
This could be a significant issue with this if you are using the exact focus effect code.
I don't know how all the code works for this, but it seems that if you're coding something along the lines of a flat increase you could just modify it to a % increase (again, would be relatively the same amount of intended increase, it would just be a scaled increase instead of a flat increase).
Or
Just put it on the effect line instead of focus effects?
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Xeldan
Staff Emeritus
Multiplying it by a percentage can cause things to get hairy if it's introduced decently into itemization.
If it's multiplied by other item effects then you have to take that into consideration and be extremely careful in where you put it. Damage foci are already powerful enough -- I don't think they should also enhance other item bonuses in addition to spells.
As an aside, a lot of the concerns posted in this thread have already been (or are being) taken into consideration with this system.
panthernoswar
Dalayan Beginner
I think Kiseble means more Elemental Damage +4 x DI 7 = 28dmg added, not the %, but I could be wrong
That would be more powerful than Devs intend for this, the % based would be much more in line with what they have in mind, and even that is probably more damage than they plan on putting.
booster
Dalayan Master
this
robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
I realize that to get the same "power" increase from adding the elemental damage to the base of a nuke you would have to make the cap on added elemental damage substantially lower, but how is it at all more beneficial to add the bonus after all the of the bonuses that casters gear for to affect it? (Well, I guess really only DI and the elemental focuses would bear on it, but still)
I don't understand how it works better this way, basically, and it seems to me that to balance these effects will throw a lot more burden on item designers to balance the mana, ft, other focus effects, AND elemental damage that provides a different benefit depending on what spells a class has.
I'm not exactly complaining here, I'm just looking for clarification.
edit: the more I think about it, I don't really understand what this change is trying to accomplish. It sounds like the actual bonus will be somewhat small, I believe someone mentioned a cap of 100 elemental damage, for me that's an ~1% increase in damage per nuke. It's nice that now casters can get a dps benefit from more than two slots at a time, but adding some kind of stacking effect (obviously not straight up stacking, but some benefit for equipping more than one damage increment or elemental focus item) to existing focus effects seems like it could accomplish pretty much the same thing without all the complications that have been brought up in this thread. Obviously I can't see the Dev vision for these items or their role in Ikisith, but the more I think about it the more this seems to me like a cool idea that just doesn't really fit very well.
I don't understand how it works better this way, basically, and it seems to me that to balance these effects will throw a lot more burden on item designers to balance the mana, ft, other focus effects, AND elemental damage that provides a different benefit depending on what spells a class has.
I'm not exactly complaining here, I'm just looking for clarification.
edit: the more I think about it, I don't really understand what this change is trying to accomplish. It sounds like the actual bonus will be somewhat small, I believe someone mentioned a cap of 100 elemental damage, for me that's an ~1% increase in damage per nuke. It's nice that now casters can get a dps benefit from more than two slots at a time, but adding some kind of stacking effect (obviously not straight up stacking, but some benefit for equipping more than one damage increment or elemental focus item) to existing focus effects seems like it could accomplish pretty much the same thing without all the complications that have been brought up in this thread. Obviously I can't see the Dev vision for these items or their role in Ikisith, but the more I think about it the more this seems to me like a cool idea that just doesn't really fit very well.
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robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
I'm not really sure how farming for elemental damage gear is in any way different than farming for gear that says "damage increment" on it instead, other than that you didn't invent damage increment. If you don't want it to affect old content make it start at DI8 and 8% element focuses, but as long as you put the items wherever you want them it is exactly the same thing.
What an awful attitude.
If you care so little about these ideas that a few posts on the forums have killed them for you they probably weren't all that great to begin with.
I didn't even say that the elemental damage idea was bad just that from what I have seen in this thread it would be a very small benefit, and it would mean I would have three new types of focus, that I will probably need to get in more than one slot when I already need to juggle capping flowing though with keeping damage increment, casting speed increment, range increment, mana conservation, reagent conservation and three types of elemental focus. Necros and Mages have it even worse because they need those foci (mix n match elements but w/e) plus their two companion foci and a probably a healing focus. Enchanters should also try and roll with Duration Increment too, although they have less elements to worry about.
It's the same thing with a lot of items that have cool clicky buffs, even if the idea behind the item is really cool, and the benefit something that people want, the implementation of running only 15 buffs makes it hard for a lot of clickies to be useful in some situations when you need a lot of other buffs, and room for debuffs to land without screwing you over.
What an awful attitude.
If you care so little about these ideas that a few posts on the forums have killed them for you they probably weren't all that great to begin with.
I didn't even say that the elemental damage idea was bad just that from what I have seen in this thread it would be a very small benefit, and it would mean I would have three new types of focus, that I will probably need to get in more than one slot when I already need to juggle capping flowing though with keeping damage increment, casting speed increment, range increment, mana conservation, reagent conservation and three types of elemental focus. Necros and Mages have it even worse because they need those foci (mix n match elements but w/e) plus their two companion foci and a probably a healing focus. Enchanters should also try and roll with Duration Increment too, although they have less elements to worry about.
It's the same thing with a lot of items that have cool clicky buffs, even if the idea behind the item is really cool, and the benefit something that people want, the implementation of running only 15 buffs makes it hard for a lot of clickies to be useful in some situations when you need a lot of other buffs, and room for debuffs to land without screwing you over.
Since I have already seen item designers complaining about how difficult it is to balance items (see: billions of pages about thaz armors) it seems that adding another stat to keep balanced would increase the difficulty. I don't think that elemental damage armors in the form they appear to take in this thread (since that really all I can base any of this on) will be overpowered, because even if you could hit the cap on damage with a single piece of gear (which I doubt is how it will be implemented) it would still be a small benefit. I could see players thinking that the gear that drops with elemental damage on it is underpowered if its other stats are lower than gear from the same tier because the benefit will be so slight.
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vistachiri
Dalayan Master
I like the idea of actually having a choice in terms of pieces of gear, but it seems at the outset that this is going to get very complicated, both for you designing them, and us picking things (and for me doing the list. 
). The reason for balancing it coming up is simply because it is not too small a benefit to be noticed on some classes (going off on procs for melee's for example) whereas on others (casters, who do a large amount of damage over an extremely short amount of time) it adds a veritable shitload.
Example:
Monk Bard or w/e does 100 points of damage on their proc, whatever it is
Wizard does 5000 points of damage with their moon comet
Mage does 5400
Necro does (idk whatever the fuck dot they're using so lets just say) 4400
Over the time these are going off, as mage and necro are delayed, we see this (with 100 elemental on each of the particular type they are using)
Monk Bard or w/e gets a x2 increase
Wizard gets a .02% increase
Mage gets a .018% increase
Necro gets a .022% increase
Is it overpowered on the casters? No, it's underpowered. Is it absolutely massive for the proc? Yeppers. Thus adding to a problem of balancing it, I mean if I'm getting this right, the change was intended primarily to benefit casters, and ends up benefiting us less than other classes. That is at least what I got from the balance issue.
Part of the problem here isn't with the effect itself. It's with communication. Players have a very nebulous idea of what this will entail, as we obviously should at this point, since it's not out yet. Though the heads up is always appreciated, as it gives us time to actually discuss it before it goes in. Something I feel is useful. The only real examples of elemental damage we have to look at are ones that we see through previous items. Most of them are fairly tiny, and when there is a large amount on an item, generally that item is very subpar in other areas such as hp or mana. In light of that, with the very small % increase that would be seen on casters whom it is geared towards, I just don't see it being worth much of a sacrifice if it follows how I at least am conceptualizing it, especially in light of very expensive spells. 100 damage sacrifice for how much basically is what it comes down to. Since we don't know the specifics, and should not until they're out, all we can really do is speculate, which can be valuable, and really overall is where forums shine.
One of the caveats with this is why not just add energy defense spec to items instead? It would be comparable if we're capping it. It's an interesting idea, I feel it needs just a bit more to be comparable even to that (and energy/defense + specs value was very debatable). So how about this.
In line with the multiplication idea, Damage increment (and yes affliction enhancement too, I didn't forget about necros) is already powerful enough. Without it, you are a piss poor caster (unless you are an enchanter, in which case it mostly has no value). However, elemental foci are not nearly as powerful...and this is elemental based...so would it then be possible to multiply the damage being done by this added elemental damage by an amount going along with the foci of that type? This way you would see something like (arbitrary numbers)
4 ice on a bracer
Shojar's cruelty on
4*6=> 24 total damage added.
This is substantially better than 4. It also will be more likely to benefit casters (the ones I'm assuming this change was mostly geared towards) as they are the ones most likely to have some elemental foci.
The reason for the suggestion on this in part stems from what I see on various gear setups. There is very little impetus for many classes to acquire all the elemental foci of the best nature they can get, look at the top 5 necromancers for a good illustration of this. 2 with poison focus whatsoever, 3 with disease, and only 1 of those with 6 disease. Another good example is 1 of the wizards having magic focus (albeit magic focus pieces tend to be a bit rarer). This might actually up the value of elemental foci to be at least close to in line on all the types of damage one can do, increase diversity in terms of gear selection, as well as giving this whole idea a better benefit. It would also fit with a cap of 100, as 400 would then be the highest one could get as a bonus (unless we're seeing 8% elemental foci too come ikisith). As it currently stands, an item from early tmaps provides me with about as much bonus as I'd see from stacking up 100 elemental damage, with an ostensibly lesser sacrifice (a buff slot rather than a gear slot) so I don't feel a maximum total damage bonus (after multiplication) of 400 would be too high (again I am making some assumptions about the amount present on gear, it might be a little hairy in terms of necros to actually balance that, as one could add a hilarious amount of dps with particular selections on them, though not really with wizards and mages). Putting it another way as well, the ones who most likely are going to be using a particular type of damage over and over again, are wizards. Mages and necros use varying types to acheive their dps, so in terms of overall benefit, this will actually end up even lower for us and our deadlovin brethren.
And yes, we already have to balance as casters a truly ridiculous amount of things. It's at least a good 11 or 12 foci for necros and mages, then the 20ft. More often than not alot of gear is passed up simply based on a rarer foci on that already particularly strong slot, beats gear for the next few tiers.
Eh the problem with caster 2hers is still going to pretty much be the same as it always was, I'd love to see a worthwhile high tiered one, currently I don't feel they exist. Benefit for benefit. Casters are already extremely lacking in hp, and the large amount of damage we end up taking in the endgame even when we are not attracting the main mob's intention is generally fairly considerable. Thus it is fairly understandable why many would not sacrifice 100 hp even for 100 extra points of damage. I certainly wouldn't, because I can't do much damage when I'm dead. More fluidity in terms of gear would be pretty nice. Focus effects being so rigid does blow, and oftentimes causes overlooking pieces. Really people are just looking at this like ferocity for casters so to speak, so it's going to be agonized over any way ya slice and dice it (which actually is another interesting idea).
Actually as a sidenote one thing I just thought of....foci like say, experimental runes. Is it possible to say take an effect like that, and actually make it stack somehow with foci that do similar things? Kind of like valiance and ferocity really is what I'm thinking. That would make things a bit more fluid if handled right. Just a thought that popped up in my head when I was reading zae's last few sentences(and yes, I realize it is a pretty nebulous thought, I gotta think about that one some more).
Another thing I noticed here..is there actually going to be a sacrifice on the various pieces of gear for it other than weapon and chest? Because I'm kinda getting mixed messages here a little bit, which probably accounts for most of the problems people see with it. If it's a bit of free damage, sure by all means stack that on like a fat man stacks pancakes. But if we're sacrificing 20m here, 10hp here, some resists etc, then it wouldn't really be free. Which would mean alot of those pieces would end up unused if they're perceived as not worth it (a problem seen with thaz water augs previously, the reason there were so many of them was not because of energy/defense spec I'd wager, but rather because of the previous ft on them, I personally selected advanced effects, hp, and really anything else I could get instead of a few points of damage, and with good reasons for doing so), and unused for previous tiered items. Balancing gear is not an easy job by any means, it's enough of a massive pain in the balls just to judge between characters with the gear. I don't particularly envy your job.
). The reason for balancing it coming up is simply because it is not too small a benefit to be noticed on some classes (going off on procs for melee's for example) whereas on others (casters, who do a large amount of damage over an extremely short amount of time) it adds a veritable shitload.Example:
Monk Bard or w/e does 100 points of damage on their proc, whatever it is
Wizard does 5000 points of damage with their moon comet
Mage does 5400
Necro does (idk whatever the fuck dot they're using so lets just say) 4400
Over the time these are going off, as mage and necro are delayed, we see this (with 100 elemental on each of the particular type they are using)
Monk Bard or w/e gets a x2 increase
Wizard gets a .02% increase
Mage gets a .018% increase
Necro gets a .022% increase
Is it overpowered on the casters? No, it's underpowered. Is it absolutely massive for the proc? Yeppers. Thus adding to a problem of balancing it, I mean if I'm getting this right, the change was intended primarily to benefit casters, and ends up benefiting us less than other classes. That is at least what I got from the balance issue.
Part of the problem here isn't with the effect itself. It's with communication. Players have a very nebulous idea of what this will entail, as we obviously should at this point, since it's not out yet. Though the heads up is always appreciated, as it gives us time to actually discuss it before it goes in. Something I feel is useful. The only real examples of elemental damage we have to look at are ones that we see through previous items. Most of them are fairly tiny, and when there is a large amount on an item, generally that item is very subpar in other areas such as hp or mana. In light of that, with the very small % increase that would be seen on casters whom it is geared towards, I just don't see it being worth much of a sacrifice if it follows how I at least am conceptualizing it, especially in light of very expensive spells. 100 damage sacrifice for how much basically is what it comes down to. Since we don't know the specifics, and should not until they're out, all we can really do is speculate, which can be valuable, and really overall is where forums shine.
One of the caveats with this is why not just add energy defense spec to items instead? It would be comparable if we're capping it. It's an interesting idea, I feel it needs just a bit more to be comparable even to that (and energy/defense + specs value was very debatable). So how about this.
In line with the multiplication idea, Damage increment (and yes affliction enhancement too, I didn't forget about necros) is already powerful enough. Without it, you are a piss poor caster (unless you are an enchanter, in which case it mostly has no value). However, elemental foci are not nearly as powerful...and this is elemental based...so would it then be possible to multiply the damage being done by this added elemental damage by an amount going along with the foci of that type? This way you would see something like (arbitrary numbers)
4 ice on a bracer
Shojar's cruelty on
4*6=> 24 total damage added.
This is substantially better than 4. It also will be more likely to benefit casters (the ones I'm assuming this change was mostly geared towards) as they are the ones most likely to have some elemental foci.
The reason for the suggestion on this in part stems from what I see on various gear setups. There is very little impetus for many classes to acquire all the elemental foci of the best nature they can get, look at the top 5 necromancers for a good illustration of this. 2 with poison focus whatsoever, 3 with disease, and only 1 of those with 6 disease. Another good example is 1 of the wizards having magic focus (albeit magic focus pieces tend to be a bit rarer). This might actually up the value of elemental foci to be at least close to in line on all the types of damage one can do, increase diversity in terms of gear selection, as well as giving this whole idea a better benefit. It would also fit with a cap of 100, as 400 would then be the highest one could get as a bonus (unless we're seeing 8% elemental foci too come ikisith). As it currently stands, an item from early tmaps provides me with about as much bonus as I'd see from stacking up 100 elemental damage, with an ostensibly lesser sacrifice (a buff slot rather than a gear slot) so I don't feel a maximum total damage bonus (after multiplication) of 400 would be too high (again I am making some assumptions about the amount present on gear, it might be a little hairy in terms of necros to actually balance that, as one could add a hilarious amount of dps with particular selections on them, though not really with wizards and mages). Putting it another way as well, the ones who most likely are going to be using a particular type of damage over and over again, are wizards. Mages and necros use varying types to acheive their dps, so in terms of overall benefit, this will actually end up even lower for us and our deadlovin brethren.
And yes, we already have to balance as casters a truly ridiculous amount of things. It's at least a good 11 or 12 foci for necros and mages, then the 20ft. More often than not alot of gear is passed up simply based on a rarer foci on that already particularly strong slot, beats gear for the next few tiers.
Eh the problem with caster 2hers is still going to pretty much be the same as it always was, I'd love to see a worthwhile high tiered one, currently I don't feel they exist. Benefit for benefit. Casters are already extremely lacking in hp, and the large amount of damage we end up taking in the endgame even when we are not attracting the main mob's intention is generally fairly considerable. Thus it is fairly understandable why many would not sacrifice 100 hp even for 100 extra points of damage. I certainly wouldn't, because I can't do much damage when I'm dead. More fluidity in terms of gear would be pretty nice. Focus effects being so rigid does blow, and oftentimes causes overlooking pieces. Really people are just looking at this like ferocity for casters so to speak, so it's going to be agonized over any way ya slice and dice it (which actually is another interesting idea).
Actually as a sidenote one thing I just thought of....foci like say, experimental runes. Is it possible to say take an effect like that, and actually make it stack somehow with foci that do similar things? Kind of like valiance and ferocity really is what I'm thinking. That would make things a bit more fluid if handled right. Just a thought that popped up in my head when I was reading zae's last few sentences(and yes, I realize it is a pretty nebulous thought, I gotta think about that one some more).
Another thing I noticed here..is there actually going to be a sacrifice on the various pieces of gear for it other than weapon and chest? Because I'm kinda getting mixed messages here a little bit, which probably accounts for most of the problems people see with it. If it's a bit of free damage, sure by all means stack that on like a fat man stacks pancakes. But if we're sacrificing 20m here, 10hp here, some resists etc, then it wouldn't really be free. Which would mean alot of those pieces would end up unused if they're perceived as not worth it (a problem seen with thaz water augs previously, the reason there were so many of them was not because of energy/defense spec I'd wager, but rather because of the previous ft on them, I personally selected advanced effects, hp, and really anything else I could get instead of a few points of damage, and with good reasons for doing so), and unused for previous tiered items. Balancing gear is not an easy job by any means, it's enough of a massive pain in the balls just to judge between characters with the gear. I don't particularly envy your job.
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robopirateninja
Staff Emeritus
I like the idea of elemental damage too, and I said as much. Personally I think removing the 2/4/6 focuses and itemizing +elemental damage over the tiers is an awesome idea, but you already said in this thread that you wouldn't be touching old items with this change where possible. Having two kinds of elemental focuses doesn't make much sense and it seems like the spellpower ones would be a lot easier to scale up than have an arbitrary 7% (or 2%) increase at some tiers.
Putting a shitload of elemental damage on a robe or 2h staff is a fine idea, but for a 1% increase would it be worth it? Probably not, especially if the items were lacking in other areas. All I've said in this thread the whole time is that it's an interesting idea but I'm concerned about how well it will work out. My thinking is that if its too small a bonus to worry about, why bother, and if it's supposed to be a significant bonus it sounds like it could be irritating for players to juggle around additional effects.
I post my thoughts because I want to both understand the changes better as well as point out problems or flaws where I think I see them. I'm not attacking you personally, and your attitude of "someone made a mean post I'm cancelling Ikisith" seems pretty immature. I understand that Devs donate their time to the server, but I'm not really getting anything out of thinking about these changes other than the satisfaction that I tried to make a game I enjoy playing better either.
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vistachiri
Dalayan Master
Okay that makes things alot clearer. Yeah I figured things were still rolling around a bit. On a sidenote, I was thinking about making a bit of a brainstorming thread over in s&r regarding foci, new things, possible combinations for classes that have a hell of a time already (like say companion health for pet classes being a combined effect with healing increment, removing the put it on when you zone problem, which I've always seen as on the verge of exploitation, as well as a large pain in the ass). If there's enough interest in one I'd be glad to start the ball rolling.
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