Purpose of the 2/3rds Rule

[Melestav]

I'm curious as to other folk's opinions on the requirement that a PuG raid force has at least 2/3rds members flagged for gated/keyed raid content.

As an example, for the recent Sanctum pug proper flagging would mean having killed, in order:
GoTSS (get vaporous key), Lil'Taesh, MoTG (and the key guys to access him), Manis, Mirror Golems, Taeshlin, at least 1 IP dragon (all 5 may not actually be required, confirm/deny?) and Nexus of the Ward. Also, depending how firm an adherent you wanted to be to the rule, Druzkor the Chained to access the projection in Everchill.

During the raid Tao requested a confirmation that at least 12/18 had been present for a Nexus of the Ward kill, which, after some toon shuffling, was attested to.

Killing Nexus does not require anything beyond the ritual spell mini-game obtained from IP trash drops/one dragon kill for 6 people. It would be relatively easy to flag 10+ people for Sanctum that had never killed anything in EC/OP/IP.

Basically, without getting too far into this example, I'm wondering a few things:

1. What is the purpose of the 2/3rds PuG rule?

2. Who is harmed when this policy is violated?

3. How does this policy reward honest players more than dishonest ones?

4. Why does this policy look for individual character flags rather than by actual player?

Personally, I only rarely run PuG's, and 99% of the time they're for non-gated content, so I'm not looking out for personal benefit here, but rather inspecting what seems to be, at times, a very arbitrary series of requirements. The idea of a Yclist pug makes me cringe.

 

[oozu1234]

you know i always felt that this policy only hindered lower level toons getting into high tier pugs or say when i was running TNC, obviously at tier 5 i wasnt getting upgrades and it was hard for me to make tier 9-10 pugs to get ME and a FEW others real loot because there's just not enough "flagged" toons online.

my other concern was when this was put in. ton the rare occasion i do a Farhag pug or UT or Clockwork, is finding 12 people legitimatley flagged. to get into UT all u have to do is click the raid in, same with clockwork. Oozu: ok everyone who's flagged? raid: i am x16. Oozu: GREAT WE HAVE 16 FLAGGED. but in reality 6 of those those toons lied, i clicked up and we dropped the mobs. a GM checks, finds only 10 flagged revoked all their loot jails/bans me. kinda unfair to those that didnt lie and myself even since i followed proper "protocol".

i personally feel that this rule should just be revoked untill there is a way found to prevent lying. i've been told well why hasnt it been done yet? and i say idk. im no dev but from an outsiders perspective if i had the knowledge and skill i'd try to make a system like a combination of the ToT elemental flag check (the one that acctually puts you in the wing, not the first and second that must be ring clicked), Balagan from PoEntropy where if u pass him he DoT's u to death unless u have the skin (flag). and the Nadox flags for bosses.

so say the second locked gate in OP (the one after u kill MoTG). instead of keeping that gate locked, put an NPC their (Flag checker of death). if u pass this said NPC without the flag boom your ass has been Death touched. how do u get the flag? well you go and kill MoTG and you hail the "MoTG flag" mob.

These said mobs wouldnt clear whole "raid" it would be simply you port up with 18 people. and people with flags make it through and people without them dont. if fella's try to Rez past them well thats content skipping on a whole different level.

idk once again i have no idea what im talking about, if its even possible, OR worth doing. but it makes sense in my uneducated brain.

P.s. sorry for any misspelled words, puncuation etc i just woke up

 

[Nwaij]

One thing this policy tries to do is making people experience contend in the way it is meant - ON TIER. It's bad enough that people can jump tiers by jumping guilds, and the idea of people going into raid zones where they have no business whatsoever in a PuG makes this even worse.

Be glad that it isn't up to me to alter this rule, cause my version would be: "You can not PuG any area or zone that requires any form of keying at all."

 

[Rorne]

As an example, for the recent Sanctum pug proper flagging would mean having killed, in order:
GoTSS (get vaporous key), Lil'Taesh, MoTG (and the key guys to access him), Manis, Mirror Golems, Taeshlin, at least 1 IP dragon (all 5 may not actually be required, confirm/deny?) and Nexus of the Ward. Also, depending how firm an adherent you wanted to be to the rule, Druzkor the Chained to access the projection in Everchill.

You're kind of confusing how it works here. It's probably more accurate to say you just need to be flagged for whatever immediately precedes the content you want to do. I'm sure even with that explanation people will be able to say BUT WHAT ABOUT THIS OBSCURE SCENARIO but the spirit of the rule is what matters not the rule lawyering.

1. What is the purpose of the 2/3rds PuG rule?

I can't say for certain but it's probably in place to stave off inflation. Having 6 well geared characters essentially doing an encounter for 12 others who it would otherwise be below the means of is not a great thing. If you just gave free reign you'd hypothetically be letting 17 out of 18 players cash in on the time and effort someone else has spent doing something like flagging for Eternal Well allowing them direct access to content they have no rightful business doing AND possibly taking that content away from actual guilds working their way up the tiers.

2. Who is harmed when this policy is violated?

Via inflation basically everyone at the later tiers. I don't know how congested they are right now but historically tier 7-9 or so can get crazy and this is without fast-tracking a billion characters outside of guilds.

3. How does this policy reward honest players more than dishonest ones?

You're making the assumption people don't get caught. If a GM doesn't catch you in the act right off the bat there is always the competition looking for any opportunity to rat out their rivals if they are perceived to be breaking the rules.

 

[iRtehTisukii]

One thing this policy tries to do is making people experience contend in the way it is meant - ON TIER. It's bad enough that people can jump tiers by jumping guilds, and the idea of people going into raid zones where they have no business whatsoever in a PuG makes this even worse.

Be glad that it isn't up to me to alter this rule, cause my version would be: "You can not PuG any area or zone that requires any form of keying at all."

This.

 

[Gawain]

It enforces the earning of gear, not the freebie giveaway of having a core of experienced players essentially give loot to people that don't belong there. 2/3rds is already generous to allow for filling out a raid if there aren't enough online.

But per your example, if there aren't more than 12 people online keyed for Sanctum: Your raid doesn't belong in Sanctum because the players haven't earned their entry. People lying about being keyed for easily accessible encounters does not negate this.

 

[Mythryn]

Someone please be kind enough to explain why "tier jumping" and why "Having 6 well geared characters essentially doing an encounter for 12 others" are bad things? If that's how those 6 people want to spend their time, why do you all honestly care? Do you really enjoy telling people how to play a game that much? Let alone enforcing it? Seems like a waste of time and effort!

 

[Salarus]

Be glad that it isn't up to me to alter this rule, cause my version would be: "You can not PuG any area or zone that requires any form of keying at all."

Really wish this was the case.

 

[Tarutao]

"You can not PuG any area or zone that requires any form of keying at all."

The 2/3 rule is a concession for PuG raids in order that this quoted statement would not be policy.

If you can come up with a better one, I'm listening.

If you suggest that raid content should have no prerequisites (read: no keys to doors, no keys to zones, no quest-opened raid content, no required quest flags, or any combination of the previous and/or related prerequisites that I may have failed to mention), then don't bother speaking up.

Clearly, though, Nwaij is right. That's where the rule needs to get set since confirming 2/3 is difficult at best, and now people are complaining about it.

 

[Rorne]

Someone please be kind enough to explain why "tier jumping" and why "Having 6 well geared characters essentially doing an encounter for 12 others" are bad things? If that's how those 6 people want to spend their time, why do you all honestly care? Do you really enjoy telling people how to play a game that much? Let alone enforcing it? Seems like a waste of time and effort!

You can have 6 well geared players carrying the other 12, just not in keyed progression zones. In those you can have 12 well geared players carrying 6 others. That's hardly some police state stuff. Also why should people (guilds) who put the time and effort to get keyed have to actively compete for mobs with 17 random unkeyed dudes and Ringo.

 

[Mythryn]

Also why should people (guilds) who put the time and effort to get keyed have to actively compete for mobs with 17 random unkeyed dudes and Ringo.

Because even a guild only needs one key to do most content, and if a group of 18 rag tag people can beat up some bad guy in some bad guy zone, they deserve the loot just as much as anyone else. But hey rules are rules, I get that, I was just seeing if someone could actually come up with a valid reason why these things are so "bad" that rules need to be made for them.

 

[Marza]

Someone please be kind enough to explain why "tier jumping" and why "Having 6 well geared characters essentially doing an encounter for 12 others" are bad things? If that's how those 6 people want to spend their time, why do you all honestly care? Do you really enjoy telling people how to play a game that much? Let alone enforcing it? Seems like a waste of time and effort!

I have never personally cared if someone wanted to do the above, the rules were made in another time and that's just the way things have been. For better or worse.

 

[phroggonalog]

and if a group of 18 rag tag people can beat up some bad guy in some bad guy zone, they deserve the loot just as much as anyone else.

Except that you are straw manning the point that gerick made which is that it's 17 rag tag people (not 18) and a tank that trivializes the content; or perhaps 16 and 2 ringers, or 15 and 3 ringers. How could you possibly think it's okay for one or two people to carry a raid with ringer(s), let random people who don't even know what zone they are in reap the rewards for being online for all of one hour, and thus deny guilds who try really really really hard to get 12-18 people online at the same time their targets? Read zaela's comment about shitting all over a dev's content for another good point

 

[Rorne]

Free Market Raiding is a flawed system. Vote No.

 

[huey]

But in a way it does restrict it. As much as I love to get in on stuff and grab an occasional upgrade on an alt, once one of our raid nights come around and we have the same 2 or 3 target options we do almost every raid up because the one or two things that didn't get snagged by a rival guild got pugged by draeos or someone, well that kinda just sucks. Tier 9 and I assume up are congested enough imo not to have to lose your targets to a few ringers and a bunch of alts or people that haven't even seen the 6 tier below it.

I'm not really against pugs at all. I think not having them would seriously hurt the server, but taking out anything meant to slow them down would be as bad or imo much worse. I won't really argue against the pugs that snag our good targets if they're legit, bummer though they may be, but to remove restrictions and basically make the raid guild graveyard (tier 9) where you either have to be able to raid on demand (which unfortunately we cannot) or you have to be totally lucky and have stuff pop like right before raid time and hope nobody's waiting for it or you can beat them to it when it just so happens to be there as you're forming up is gonna kill some of us.

Sorry I guess I'm just frustrated at being stuck, but it also has driven me crazy lately how some of us went through most, if not all of the content up to where we are over the course of years, while some hop right up to where we are in a matter of a couple months, and even that I could deal with if people are cool about it, but it's just crazy how it has become almost expected.

Good luck reading my run-ons, heh. Flame away...

 

[Mythryn]

Free Market Raiding is a flawed system.

If you say so boss!

Except that you are straw manning the point that gerick made which is that it's 17 rag tag people (not 18) and a tank that trivializes the content; or perhaps 16 and 2 ringers, or 15 and 3 ringers. How could you possibly think it's okay for one or two people to carry a raid with ringer(s), let random people who don't even know what zone they are in reap the rewards for being online for all of one hour, and thus deny guilds who try really really really hard to get 12-18 people online at the same time their targets? Read zaela's comment about shitting all over a dev's content for another good point

Because they play the game too, and the "rag tag + ringer" group would have to beat the "tries realllllly hard so thats obviously better and they deserve it more" group to the mob in the first place.

Also, how on earth is it "shitting all over a dev's content" for people to actually use it? If it's a PUGable raid, it's been beaten in and out so many times that it shouldn't be an issue. Are our devs so thin-skinned that they take people experiencing the content they designed personally? I'd like to think not, as people's ability to PUG or use ringers on a fight shouldn't be an insult, and isn't testament of a dev's abilities.

 

[kallemur4]

Just my 2cp.
If you want all the phats right away without doing any real work to get there, download the software to set up your own EqEMU, give yourself all the gear you want (probably more work than getting T9 loot with 3 ringers (tank cleric wiz or something like that).

I want to beat the game (even if I atm is more or less on a raid break) not stand like a fool and get rewarded for doing nothing.

 

[Salarus]

How many times per week does your guild raid? 3? 4? Should every mob on your tier just be left up for when it is convenient for you?

Why is there a line drawn for who can not experience the content? If your dude can survive it, you should be allowed to be with to kill it.

1-key/flag, all key/flag imo.

Using this line of logic, lets take out any keys entirely. Lets let Sanctuary, CW, Exo, and whoever else just prance right into spires.

The line is drawn by beating certain, what seems to be more challenging encounters in order to be allowed to continue on to try other content with generally more lucrative rewards.

Also really, stop straw manning. This isn't LP.

 

[Salarus]

Also, how on earth is it "shitting all over a dev's content" for people to actually use it? If it's a PUGable raid, it's been beaten in and out so many times that it shouldn't be an issue. Are our devs so thin-skinned that they take people experiencing the content they designed personally? I'd like to think not, as people's ability to PUG or use ringers on a fight shouldn't be an insult, and isn't testament of a dev's abilities.

What I think is meant by "shitting all over a dev's content" is that tiers of content could be trivialized were this rule retracted. If there was no reason to have to clear through OP other than for the sake of wanting complete natural progression, who would do it? There are so many ringers just floating around that just jumping into IP with a couple t9 chars is more than possible.

I still don't see what would be hurt by either only allowing pugs into areas where no keying is required, or saying that 100% of your raid has to be flagged for every encounter up to it. There is a plethora of content available that doesn't require a key in any form.

EDIT: Just to clarify, the only 18 man raid zones that i'm aware of that you actually NEED to be keyed are ToT past lobby, Upper Thaz, CoD, Valor B, Prison, Yclist, Spires, Tu'ruj, Parts of CoM, Undercity??? (i'm probably forgetting one or two.) The vast majority of content is still open to prance around in without having to touch content zones.

 

[cian2]

Using this line of logic, lets take out any keys entirely. Lets let Sanctuary, CW, Exo, and whoever else just prance right into spires.

Is this a problem?

The raid scene in this game is hurting badly, and further silly restrictions are probably not helping. Zorlon pretty much said what I wanted to say in this thread, but the massive overlying point is that if people want to play this game and attempt to kill enemies, I say let them!