Powerleveling

[zodium]

Players going against the expressed, as opposed to the enforced, wishes of the staff is inevitable. I'm not sure why Wiz made this thread since I haven't spoken to him for a few days, but experience tells me to take it as a warning of things to come.

 

[vistachiri]

Heh actually was grouping my 25 shammy w/my sk yesterday, though not for levels. See when I started here I started w/the shammy, but wanted to try more melee, so I picked an sk. Leveled him up like mad then decided to try and 2box once or twice. Didn't like it much but had no experience w/eq playnice and I figure well how much memory could it possibly take? I've got enough, built the box myself. Things got more difficult as I increased level and found myself soloing a bit. So I decided to try them together again w/playnice. Things worked great, unfortunately the sk is 40ish now lol. But still helped w/heals quite enough.. technically I would say they were babysitting each other lol.

 

[Babs]

I can't get eqplaynice to work. Keeps telling me I've got a version mismatch.

 

[Wiz]

Players going against the expressed, as opposed to the enforced, wishes of the staff is inevitable. I'm not sure why Wiz made this thread since I haven't spoken to him for a few days, but experience tells me to take it as a warning of things to come.

Yeah, pretty much. I don't expect people to stop this because I ask them to, so what it amounts to is a warning that there are going to be some severe revamps to the anti-PL code in the near future.

 

[nihilist326]

i am a student at the great university of rhode island ( :roll: ), so i dont have too much time to get on and get a good group. when i do get a group, i rarely have more than a few hours, so leveling is slow. that being said, i've never even considered asking an upper level to power level me or wanted a babysitter in my groups. i roll my eyes every time i see a level 12 ooc'ing to pay for a few hours of powerleveling. if you dont feel like actually playing the game, then dont play. i'm sick of seeing high levels that dont know what the hell they're doing because they zipped through the levels without actually learning anything. thats just my 2 cents. wiz, kick some PL'ing arse

 

[rab]

The only thing I hate about the PL code is that I can't do drive-by buffings, because it hits them with an exp penalty. I have to wait around for them to stop pulling. Similarly, I can't even toss a heal on someone who might be dying (or might not) because it would shit on his exp even if he does win. It's just annoying. The harsher the PL code, the more I can't even do what I do now.

 

[Wiz]

The only thing I hate about the PL code is that I can't do drive-by buffings, because it hits them with an exp penalty. I have to wait around for them to stop pulling. Similarly, I can't even toss a heal on someone who might be dying (or might not) because it would shit on his exp even if he does win. It's just annoying. The harsher the PL code, the more I can't even do what I do now.

Yeah, this is what sucks, it's just really really hard to tell the two apart in the code in a not horribly inefficent manner.

 

[phlit]

The only thing I hate about the PL code is that I can't do drive-by buffings, because it hits them with an exp penalty. I have to wait around for them to stop pulling. Similarly, I can't even toss a heal on someone who might be dying (or might not) because it would shit on his exp even if he does win. It's just annoying. The harsher the PL code, the more I can't even do what I do now.

Yeah, this is what sucks, it's just really really hard to tell the two apart in the code in a not horribly inefficent manner.

How about some system like 'heat' works for rogues...

 

[Manluas]

The only thing I hate about the PL code is that I can't do drive-by buffings, because it hits them with an exp penalty. I have to wait around for them to stop pulling. Similarly, I can't even toss a heal on someone who might be dying (or might not) because it would shit on his exp even if he does win. It's just annoying. The harsher the PL code, the more I can't even do what I do now.

Yeah, this is what sucks, it's just really really hard to tell the two apart in the code in a not horribly inefficent manner.

How about some system like 'heat' works for rogues...

Can you explain that to me?
In fact I don't know if you can even code something that will differ between passing by and buffing or helping elseways while passing and powerleveling.
It would in fact made me sad if Anit-PL code needs to be revamped, this will eventually enable me or anyone else to help anyone you see right now with tossing heals or something else.
It makes me sad that some people can't stand to level there toons up.

 

[phlit]

The only thing I hate about the PL code is that I can't do drive-by buffings, because it hits them with an exp penalty. I have to wait around for them to stop pulling. Similarly, I can't even toss a heal on someone who might be dying (or might not) because it would shit on his exp even if he does win. It's just annoying. The harsher the PL code, the more I can't even do what I do now.

Yeah, this is what sucks, it's just really really hard to tell the two apart in the code in a not horribly inefficent manner.

How about some system like 'heat' works for rogues...

Can you explain that to me?
In fact I don't know if you can even code something that will differ between passing by and buffing or helping elseways while passing and powerleveling.
It would in fact made me sad if Anit-PL code needs to be revamped, this will eventually enable me or anyone else to help anyone you see right now with tossing heals or something else.
It makes me sad that some people can't stand to level there toons up.

All I was suggesting is that a heal or buff creates 'PL-heat' (when out of group), and after X amount of heals/buffs by X person on X person, PL-heat is generated to the level that causes exp penalty. This would allow for 'fly-by' healing/buffing, but avoid/discourage 'babysitting'.

 

[calaran]

The only thing I hate about the PL code is that I can't do drive-by buffings, because it hits them with an exp penalty. I have to wait around for them to stop pulling. Similarly, I can't even toss a heal on someone who might be dying (or might not) because it would shit on his exp even if he does win. It's just annoying. The harsher the PL code, the more I can't even do what I do now.

Yeah, this is what sucks, it's just really really hard to tell the two apart in the code in a not horribly inefficent manner.

How about some system like 'heat' works for rogues...

Can you explain that to me?
In fact I don't know if you can even code something that will differ between passing by and buffing or helping elseways while passing and powerleveling.
It would in fact made me sad if Anit-PL code needs to be revamped, this will eventually enable me or anyone else to help anyone you see right now with tossing heals or something else.
It makes me sad that some people can't stand to level there toons up.

I THINK the idea that phlit (I think it was him, hard to tell looking at the quote tree above) was meaning was maybe something like this:

A low level player receives a buff or heal from a much higher level player, and therefore they get some "heat" (in reference to the rogue system). That first buff/heal may not cause much of a problem for them, but subsequent interactions with the high level player, before the timer expires may. Now, this could be done one of two ways...

1.> A beneficial spell causes a certain amount of heat, and after you reach a certain level of heat, you start getting significantly less exp per kill (sorta lends itself to using long-term buffs and would still allow some ways to cheat the system, and would also hamper a group of higher levels sitting in NP handing out mindcandy and hp/ac buffs... let's say someone dropped a clarity on you and another dropped a aego or whatever would stick on you... suddenly for the next hour your exp rate sucks... not cool).

2.> Make the heat sensitive to which players are interacting (not sure if this is possible). In this case, my hypothetical lvl 65 cleric (let's call him Tim) drops a huge hp/ac buff on my newb toon (we'll call her Sue). No biggie, Sue goes out and starts killing things, no big deal. George (lvl 65 chanter) runs by and drops a clarity on Sue... again, no big deal... it's the only interaction the two of them have had, so it's obviously not PL'ing... Now, Tim decides to follow Sue around to keep her alive. She finishes a battle at 20% health, so he drops a big heal on her... now they've interacted twice, and the interactions probably have varying weights... a heal prolly nto as big a deal as a huge buff... but after 2-3 fights maybe, the code senses there is a STRONG amount of 'heat' between Sue and SOMEONE.. doesn't matter who... happens to be Tim in this case though.... She starts getting severely crippled exp until the heat wears down which could take however long.

I like the second method better because it allows the fun/community aspect of being in a central area (like NP) and getting buffs from 5 different people, and then going out and using your uber-n00b to kill stuff, while disallowing the single high level player following a character around and giving him tons of benefits. Sure, you could argue that a group of 10-15 people could follow around one toon and switch off doing stuff... but I highly doubt anyone has THAT many friends.

Just some thoughts.[/list]

 

[moghedancarns]

Current heat for rogues is that you steal in front of the guards and move toward kos will ALL guards... a single value.

Your suggestion would involve a database of every character on the server and a seperate heat value for each one.

 

[calaran]

Current heat for rogues is that you steal in front of the guards and move toward kos will ALL guards... a single value.

Your suggestion would involve a database of every character on the server and a seperate heat value for each one.

Well, not to get technical (okay, yeah, to get technical) it would not require an entirely new database. It would require one of two things:

1.> A linking table that linked two characters and provided a value... not that hard to imagine.
or
2.> Assuming an OO way of handling everything, though I'm not sure that's how the server is written, the character class could have a property added that would be a 2-dimensional array, cross referencing ids of other characters and the values they've accumulated.

I don't know the code of the server incredibly well, but compared to some of the other changes (2 completely unique vendor systems just since I started playing, the heat system, postmasters, specializations, etc) that Wiz has made, I hardly think these are out of his range of abilities.

It may not be what he WANTS... but it certainly doesn't require the creation of an entirely new database.

Also, the one you address was just my second suggestion... my first suggestion would be very much like rogue heat and require just the same amount of work (perhaps less?) as that.

Anyway, was just some thoughts.

 

[phlit]

I would see it as calaran notes in his 2nd account of the situation/solution.

Wiz seems to want to stop 'babysitting' - continual buffing &/or healing. Talking about 'getting buffs in nnp' seems a little silly - this system can avoid getting any penalty for that, or not, as Wiz likes. The question is, I guess, is the system implementable? Or the simplest/best solution...

 

[Sanyia]

I assume that giving sow or strenghten to your lowbie character would be ok, since it is a low level buff?

 

[Binge]

I have been refraining from posting about this, but what the hell. I guess I don't see this as an issue.

I think the current anti-PL code is fine. We can't drop big DS's on our alts, we can't sit there and chain heal, or finish a mob off after 50%, and the buffs are only +/- 20 levels for the most part. Now I fullt admit when I started my Ranger, my main goal was get level 65 ASAP. I've already leveled a character, I am a competent player and I honestly did not want to go through the entire grind again. So I would go attack red /con mobs, and use HoT spells to tank them until they're dead, and get huge chunks of experience.

This only works in the lower levels. After say level 30+, its just not feasible. Mobs start hitting too hard to keep up with the damage. So what I did was start a group, and just have my 65 sitting on the sidelines "Babysitting" i guess. I would buff the people in the group, and rez. Then its business as usual. Normal grouping, normal pulling, normal healing, normal DPS. The 65 cleric sitting next to us is an insurance policy. I'm sorry, but I am not going to eat a sub 96% rez, when I have the ability to do it myself and for everyone in my groups, since this is 99% of my clerics role currently.

Having him there makes the group so much more succesfull. We're not doing things we shouldn't be, we're just doing things alot better and more efficiently. How many times have you had a wipe, and people go "ohh uhh, my cat just died I gotta go now" or whatever excuse. Dieing literally sucks the life out of people. They just say screw it and log. If your group wipes, at any time, theres like a 75% chance its going to break up as a result. With my cleric sitting there, dieing is just a hassle waiting for fatigue to wear off. Thats it. No more lame excuses, no more lost motivation to keep leveling.

I absolutely believe that this helps in every single way possible. Just last night before we received the little emote about babysitting, our group was amazing. What would of happened without my cleric sitting there? We never would of tried a second time to break the Warlord room, and we definately wouldn't of kept xping. So, all 6 of us would of resumed /ooc for a group thats never gonna call. Or we just log and repeat the next day.

Now if I was using my cleric to pull (which i admit i did at the lower levels once, and I'd never do that again), or heal during fights, or kill of mobs for the group I could see the issue. But these things are not happening. I love this server more than anything. Everything about it is amazing, and is everything I wish regular EQ was or could of been. Except this one little thing.

I don't know what to do honestly. I am not going to stop bringing my cleric places. I will continue to do what i've been doing, although I'm extremely close to not having to worry about it ever again, since I can start grouping with my cleric in a couple levels, and be done with it.

What I'm saying is I absolutely see where your coming from. I know you dont want people to be level 65 in 2 weeks. Which is fine. Doing away with people PLing their alts is going to be hard, because really who wants to do the grind again? I just think theres grey area, which is where i'm sitting and I honestly don't feel I'm doing anything wrong.

 

[calaran]

Bunch of stuff... basically doesn't want to have to deal with <96% rez ever

Personally I see nothing wrong with babysitting as you refer to, because my personal feeling is that you've spent the time leveling your Cleric up, you should be able to benefit from what he can do... I guess in that way, I'm not really against PL'ing at all... HOWEVER...

I don't think you really fall in a grey area here...

This is a pre emptive warning issued to all the people that just will not give up babysitting their characters with level 65s: I'm really goddamn tired of you, and I will be putting in some extremely draconic measures soon unless you chill with trying to circumventing the system in an organized manner.

He pretty much says that trying to circumvent the system (i.e. avoiding having to work off 96% of the debt you SHOULD have to work off if you die) is against what he's referring to. He doesn't just say you shouldn't HoT/Buff your chars constantly... So, I think you're pretty clearly violating what he's asking.

This may be one of the first instances I've sorta disagreed with Wiz... Allowing DC'ing but not allowing pl'ing seems weird to me. I know Wiz is trying to encourage people to group together more frequently which pl'ing discourages... but I don't know that disallowing pl'ing all together will really help. That said, it is Wiz's (and his staff's) server... if he tells me that Halfling Druids are illegal from now on, then I will delete or at least not play my Druid anymore... At some point, if the rules get to be too much for me to enjoy myself, I'll find another server (PLEASE don't read that as a threat to leave, I'm personally not disgruntled at all here, since my highest lvl is a lvl 9... not much risk of pl'ing there).

Basically we are playing a game free of charge that some people are putting amazing amounts of time into, and if Wiz does not like the color green, then he is free to ban it from the server...

I wish people partied more on the server, but with an environment where you're allowed to DC (not sure if I like that or not... I sorta do in some ways, don't in other) won't lend itself to a partying environment. If you allow DC'ing I really don't think disallowing pl'ing is going to help much... honestly, if I had a 65 druid, I would be much more likely when leveling up an alt to grab a group full of people and really help everyone out... if I have to start my alt and play it without the benefit of my Druid that I leveled up legitimately, I'm probably going to end up DC'ing the new alt with a complimentary class because as it stands right now, groups are nigh-impossible in all but the most over-crowded zones.

Anyway... in essence, if Wiz says it's so, it's so. I know if I instantly level my Druid up to 65, I won't be using him to help my other toons other than helping with gear/spells, since that is obviously something Wiz doesn't want.

 

[aarielly]

The PL heat idea could actually be done a bit simpler than some are making it out to be.

How about this approach (numbers made up to illustrate the point)...

1. Every time someone outside your group casts on you during a fight you generate 50 PL heat.
2. Every tick the group loses 1 heat, so you would negate the effects of one heal in 5 minutes time.
3. If your heat goes above 200, your group loses xp at a rate of 1 percent xp for every 10 heat points.
4. The heat applies to the individual members of the group, and sticks with them even if they join another group.

So, if someone outside the group casts a heal every minute for 12 minutes, the group would acquire 600 heat points. During those 12 minutes the group would have lost 120 heat points, leaving them with 480 heat points.

With 280 heat above the "allowed limit" of 200, the group would have an xp penalty of 28 percent.

If it continued that way for another 12 minutes, the xp penalty would be 76 percent.

1 heal per minute for 30 minutes would leave the group with 1200 heat points, or 100 percent xp penalty, which would go down to zero in 100 minutes time.

This would allow the occasion heal or buff without a penalty, but leave harsh penalties for those who abuse it.

Granted, I picked my numbers at random, but the point is that is does not have to be that complicated to make it work just like rogue heat does now.

Whether this would be efficent or not is another story entirely.

 

[Wiz]

I'm not really going to comment on the suggested measures as most of them are kind of missing the point, but I am going to say this:

The real problem with powerlevelling is that it is slowly but surely replacing normal levelling entirely by creating these giant nanny groups. Someone always knows someone who has some level 65 shaman and man is mielechb easy with that shaman to heal between fights look at exp let's invite some more people who whoa this exp is something I want more of, hey doesn't your friend have a 65 ench that we can invite along so...

It's permanency 2.0, and this time I'm stopping it before it takes over completely.

 

[Slippers1]

Just make it so that getting healed by someone 10-15 levels higher than you results in an exp debt of 1%?