Please Adjust Something About the Endgame

Skos, good post. I just wanted to say something about this part-
So again, I would say there are OTHER area's that should be addressed before saying change progression to make it easier. Why not focus on the area's that need to see improvements. I see little tidbits here and there all over the forums but nobody makes posts. Recently a monk post on fists. But no rogues post about improvements to class or Beasts.
I see plenty of class balance/scaling threads here. But there isn't a single thread on the front page of this subforum that deals with class balance that has gotten a post from a staff member, except for Nwaij posting a few times from a player perspective. All the discussion that takes place is between the same handful of players. I don't think a thorough, well thought-out beastlord thread would accomplish anything (and there have been numerous H2H threads which directly impact beastlords and their total lack of melee dps scaling that have also never amounted to anything).

My beastlord does 250 auto attack DPS with a 63pp charm and BOE gloves. Kjiel does 300 auto attack DPS with nearly full best-in-slot gear. It's been this way for well over a year. What more needs to be said?
 
Last edited:
Forever and ancient days ago. I remember there being a list of where classes DPS were suppose to fall and how they should rank on the charts. All i can really say on that is some classes need some serious help. I think its from lack of understanding of the class itself maybe. I mean how many of us play a class from level 1 naked after nerfs and see how it changes the overall enjoyment and usefulness at lower levels. Or essentially the core of the character. (not how it performs under optimal circumstances). Just day to day go out kill shit get money dollars and yellow text. To be honest I like beasts in my group out of the simple fact they raise my DPS. Other than that. I'll take anything else. A Bard. Another ranger. Wizard. Even a rogue with zero utility and burn DPS. Simply because that boost in my DPS offsets how terrible they are. I mean ,really, when my grouped Bst says cunning is what im here for I get a little sad. I don't think an argument can be made that Beasts are fine because of the utility they provide because they don't provide enough DPS to other classes to offset how much they lose just by getting another class with better dps.....any class. And you can't apply the DPS you provide other classes to how much you yourself are doing. So what I would do, Susvain, is parse in gear bare hands. No skill mod. Then full skill mod. Then Gloves with whatever +magic dmg or Disease poison. Don't use dmg Spells and obviously use your pet cause you will always use that no matter what. Then do it again with spells. But without DI and Affliction enchance because math dictates I can make DPS numbers for the missing Focus because i know what % they add. This will show what a BASE Beast is doing for DPS. It will also break down just how much each "utility" that a beast has adds to its DPS. If all the numbers are relatively the same then you can argue that they peak and never get better. Or Don't scale evenly. Or are flat from the start. And i still don't understand why they don't get a relic pet....They are a pet class. Hybrid. But a pet class. I don't see them much different from mages. Give them some commands that use STA that lets pets do special attacks to up DPS for pets. But also give them a group spells that increases pet Spell and Melee mitigation. (another thing that has come up in various topics.) Over all DPS boost if pets live. But Don't ignore the Bst's base DPS if it is bad. (No Double Attack IIRC) Maybe a tome for this? (12,24,36,48) adjust on how terrible the DPS is.

Bare hands no skill- no spells
Bare hands skill mods - no spells
Bare hands Skill mods with good gloves. - no spells

Bare Hands no skill +spells
Bare hands Skill mods + spells
Bare Hands Skill mods with good gloves + spells.


Tangent- (I would like to see rogues on a stamina based DPS system that they can do DPS based on stamina availability. Mod DPS (groups) med drain. Megaman big dick DPS (Burn hard good dps) holy shit my sta is gone but i still can recover some at a slower non crippling dps rate. Low DPS high proc rate (taking Dmg) Procs innate negative aggression when top of hate list. I would like to see some sort of poisons. Slows. Cripples. Group heal poisons. If rangers can carry 10 fucking quivers for arrows then rogues can carry a lot of poisons and have some cool group utility. If a poison can make a target "Bleed revitalizing life" onto its foes' with a lowish proc rate. Then that would take care of some of the "Lost group heals" And maybe increase rogues slightly up the line. I just dont have enough experience with rogues on SoD to know where they stand and how they level.



Also a personal note. I don't usually respond to posts simply because they always turn into a giant shit-show by the 4th post and it then becomes a monitoring who is gonna turn it into a flame and troll. It usually ends off topic and some rant of (insert one/all/creative derailing) Gm corruption , dev corruption, how woldoff and the dev team want the server, how the dev team is driving people away, nerfing driving people away, CW , FWF, How one person is more right/wrong than another, childish bickering that slowly chokes and life out of the post whatsoever.

I don't know how many times I have seen people come and post about wanting to make the server better and more enjoyable and then the same people attack each other 4 posts into a topic. I mean really. Some decency and tolerance and acceptance of others goes a long ways. Most just want to attack each other every post someone makes and be all "hahaha ima troll dis newbdouche and flex my epeen till his soul bursts and showers me in kitten tears". If people were really serious about getting things fixed they would leave that kinda crap on the sidelines and ignore it and work together on a solution. But honestly I skim posts anymore because its the same thing every post. We all play here. We all try to log in and have fun with cool dudes. But so are others.
 
I've been spending some time parsing both of my characters since I've been back. I started to do precisely what you mention earlier tonight, and I will continue with a variety of setups to try and get a broad picture with specifics, but since specifics can vary widely on a fight by fight basis (See: Mages on Taeshlin, or Bards on Custo, or monks/BSTs with Staff of Shifting Shadows on Rujik) numbers gleaned from one scenario can never tell the full story. You don't really need specific numbers from every step between tier 0 and 13 in order to see the issue though.

Beastlords (and monks) who use overcap H2H to have 18/18 fists at 65 have a dps curve that is unlike any other class. Their low-tier starting point is a couple hundred dps higher than other classes and stays fairly flat most of the way to t13. They have a variety of different damage sources and types, but they all increase at a substantially slower rate than other classes, especially at the higher tiers. The best proccing boots in the game are like a 20 dps improvement over tier 7 boots, and since they use a 0 adjust fire nuke, they're actually lower dps quite often. The runic 2 pet barely out damages the 63 pet. Almost every onehanded monk/beast weapon from tier 6 and up have ratios that increase similarly to other class weapons but without the same overall dps increase that other classes get since nothing else we do actually scales based on our weapons.

Since you specifically mention beastlords, there are basically three avenues of adjusting their dps that I can see- Pet, melee, spells. I don't know if making them even more dependent on their pet in order to do better-than-SK dps would be welcome but if other more experienced beastlords want to weigh in that would be cool. The runic 2 should be a pretty noticeable gain over the 63 pet regardless though and right now it isn't afaik. Bst spells (dots) are pretty awful dps even with good focus effects and proper use of the cold nukes with +DotDamage recourses because of how low the base damage of the spells are. So maybe something could be looked at there (Rage of the Wild is terrible and not worth casting in my experience, Plague is slightly better, Venom otW is decent). And then the most out of whack part is melee dps.

Like I said, my beastlord with 3% codex bonus, no offensive tomes, BOE gloves, 63pp charm, typical buffs = 250 auto attack dps. With other low tier or BOE gloves with worse procs, it's 200-240. With a valorb 2hander instead, I do like 120 dps. If I had mid tier 1hb/h2h weapons I'd parse those but they're somewhere in that area too. Basically every 1hb/h2h weapon in the game other than Horok doesn't have a reason to exist aside for having HP and resists. BOE gloves -> Silence/UC Gloves/Blazewind Gloves -> Horok/Entropy's Spine. That's basically the entirety of monk and beastlord weapon progression now, and the last ones are really not even necessary except for super high tier stuff where the 400hp and resists might matter. There have been a bunch of ideas posted by many different people about monk and beastlord melee dps so I'm not going to rehash them all here.
 
Last edited:
Also Skos the DPS ranking thread is here but I'm not sure how useful it is. It was mainly caster v physical and melee v ranged arguments from what I recall.

Edit- After reading through it again it just makes me sad that it's 2 years old and shit hasn't changed except for various item nerfs and the like. And we still don't have actual target dummies with raid boss stats to parse on like every. single. other. mmo. ever.
 
Last edited:
I don't think we can ever know for sure, we can only speculate. The pool is forever tainted, there will never be a guild with no ringers, no strats, etc progress ever again.
 
this entire scenario we are referring to was progressed to and through by a (in its creation) maybe 1/3 sanctum geared guild and 2/3 old thaz/tot geared guild. There were no ringers and no strats known. You know this since you were in it for a little while.

Your analogy, while often accurate, is irrelevant to this discussion's core point about a new guild's ability to progress through the highest tiers.

It seems more relevant to progression than a few specific loots from highest tier 6 man fights. I doubt any new guild coming through the ranks would have the developer in vent for progression fights like Animation, Custodian, NZ, et al... not that he straight up released strats for fwf but it was definitely a help. Pretty sure there was at least some adjustment going on. I think this tired everything-fun-was-nerfed argument is a poor excuse, misleading thread title and all. Is it about getting all your old dps numbers back? or about making the endgame accessible to another guild that hasn't had one member already there? They don't seem very related to me.
 
It seems more relevant to progression than a few specific loots from highest tier 6 man fights. I doubt any new guild coming through the ranks would have the developer in vent for progression fights like Animation, Custodian, NZ, et al... not that he straight up released strats for fwf but it was definitely a help. Pretty sure there was at least some adjustment going on. I think this tired everything-fun-was-nerfed argument is a poor excuse, misleading thread title and all. Is it about getting all your old dps numbers back? or about making the endgame accessible to another guild that hasn't had one member already there? They don't seem very related to me.

Do you even know what its like to have a developer in chat with you? Marza straight up told us to get good / be better during taeshlin at one point and then the next day said oh oops there was actually bug with the meteor damage my bad. If a new guild thinks something is wrong all they have to do is get on irc and ask for a developer to help. Being the content test bitch is basically the role of best guild and having some dev follow you around and watch you do the fights/make adjustments goes hand in hand with it. There were definitely circumstances where the fight got harder from being observed.

I don't really know what your comment is trying to imply here. Eitherway progression through raid scene is always going to suck without a healthy population.
 
It seems more relevant to progression than a few specific loots from highest tier 6 man fights. I doubt any new guild coming through the ranks would have the developer in vent for progression fights like Animation, Custodian, NZ, et al... not that he straight up released strats for fwf but it was definitely a help. Pretty sure there was at least some adjustment going on. I think this tired everything-fun-was-nerfed argument is a poor excuse, misleading thread title and all. Is it about getting all your old dps numbers back? or about making the endgame accessible to another guild that hasn't had one member already there? They don't seem very related to me.

If you look at what he is asking for it isnt for old dps numbers back. It is to adjust the fights in terms of hps and Dmg to reflect the adjustments.

If you look at it, mainly looking at a few monsters that either do not die or very rarely die to help with guild progression and being able to kill them again.

These monsters include but not limited to:
Blazewind
Taeshlin
Rujik
Maybe ree?
Monstrocity

There are now 3 guilds in Turruj or at least killing some tribes in Turruj. I guess time will tell on when they get to the point to try the next level mobs. Most likely they will follow the wc route and try and farm it for a year plus before even thinking of the next step.
 
Solo was trying to use the reduction in dps numbers and waking to help justify the health reduction/Incining Dmg requirements. With overall dps down and healing smaller the fights are going longer this making it harder for healing classes to keep up after they had been reduced in efficiency . He isn't asking for major tweaks I think just more minor adjustments to rebalance fights accordingly.
 
TheSkos: I just want to say I really like the part of your post regarding Rogues. I've always had a fascination with Thieves (D&D Pen and Paper, and the MMORPG). EQ did a decent rollout of the 'Rogue' class, but there is something lacking in SoD with Rogues....and I believe it is DPS. Following D&D, rogues are BY FAR the best DPS class next to wizards, ONLY when they are behind the NPC (non corporeal or special god type classes).

I strongly feel like rogues should get 'Backstab' type ability with ranged weapons as an extra attack other than just shooting an arrow or throwing a knife auto attack. There are so many things this game can adjust to better suit the class. Also, traps....rogues need an innate ability to avoid/dodge traps they get near and trip. D&D, 9 times out of 10 the traps are reflex attacks. Rogues are known for their Agility and Dexterity....maybe something can be done with that as well.

I apologize and don't mean to go off-topic too much.
 
TheSkos: I just want to say I really like the part of your post regarding Rogues. I've always had a fascination with Thieves (D&D Pen and Paper, and the MMORPG). EQ did a decent rollout of the 'Rogue' class, but there is something lacking in SoD with Rogues....and I believe it is DPS. Following D&D, rogues are BY FAR the best DPS class next to wizards, ONLY when they are behind the NPC (non corporeal or special god type classes).

I strongly feel like rogues should get 'Backstab' type ability with ranged weapons as an extra attack other than just shooting an arrow or throwing a knife auto attack. There are so many things this game can adjust to better suit the class. Also, traps....rogues need an innate ability to avoid/dodge traps they get near and trip. D&D, 9 times out of 10 the traps are reflex attacks. Rogues are known for their Agility and Dexterity....maybe something can be done with that as well.

I apologize and don't mean to go off-topic too much.
Fyi and more off topic but traps are a thing and everyone hates them lol
 
I don't know anything about progressing into tier 13 on tier or how attempting the fights used to be. So I can't contribute to that part of the discussion.

What I do see is that the guild that currently kills tier 13 monsters, and has a lot of items from those monsters, currently has great difficulty killing some of those monsters and hesitates to attempt others unless an optimal group of people log in. Even when people push their buttons really well, it seems like the random number generator can still decide to stomp on our hopes, dreams, and button pushing abilities. That can be very disheartening.

Maybe we're just bad. There are certainly times that people make mistakes, myself absolutely included. But maybe with how finely tuned these fights were at the time, with how many changes have happened since then, they should be looked at.

If a fight was balanced at a point where classes were different (broken or otherwise), it just makes sense that changing the classes makes the fight less balanced. Whether it's out of balance enough for a fix is obviously up to the devs.
 
I honestly think that the people who are complaining about this currently are just people who want to do the fight more regularly and easily. I also think that the orignal post although it might not seem selfish actually is. HBM did in fact kill all of the fights the previous un-nerfed people did. granted people already had gear from t13 fights but the fights themselves currently can be done by the only guild who is willing to attempt then.

Personally I do not feel that this is an issue until ANOTHER guild tries to step their game up and attempts the mobs. Only then should the fights be adjusted to actually really benefit someone else.

I know i said the fights are broken but all you're going to do to yourself is make yourself quit faster. A couple of months down the line are going to be interesting. Everyone is going to be doing Turruj and the roadblock is going to be the top tier with not too many dev's doing work.
 
I honestly think that the people who are complaining about this currently are just people who want to do the fight more regularly and easily. I also think that the orignal post although it might not seem selfish actually is. HBM did in fact kill all of the fights the previous un-nerfed people did. granted people already had gear from t13 fights but the fights themselves currently can be done by the only guild who is willing to attempt then.
Bolded the relevant bit there.

And I think that the guild where nearly everyone has a supreme, the raid averages probably 70 completed tomes per character, and most of the mains are nearly fully best-in-slot gear with people that have been doing t13 for 3 years now, probably should have an easier time with t13 content than currently. The fact that SF only even attempts some t13 mobs with an absolutely ideal raid force is a pretty strong indicator that the mobs are not balanced very well. If a guild can't have 13-15 fully geared characters with a few tier 11 carries, I don't know how a guild full of tier 11-12 people would ever stand a chance.
 
And I think that the guild where nearly everyone has a supreme, the raid averages probably 70 completed tomes per character, and most of the mains are nearly fully best-in-slot gear with people that have been doing t13 for 3 years now, probably should have an easier time with t13 content than currently. The fact that SF only even attempts some t13 mobs with an absolutely ideal raid force is a pretty strong indicator that the mobs are not balanced very well. If a guild can't have 13-15 fully geared characters with a few tier 11 carries, I don't know how a guild full of tier 11-12 people would ever stand a chance.

I've done cutting edge content a few times on shards of dalaya and there was a general consensus among all the players ( The want and desire to kill / slay dragons ). This server is at a point where lobbying for an easier route is the norm and actually working to progress is a distant memory. The guild itself hasn't been able to do Taesh / Blazewind because people arent showing up to raids not because their gear is terrible. So when I say that the OP is being selfish is because it seem that they want to lower the content right now for themselves rather then to service the community.
 
The original poster may be deein but I don't think everyone is. I am not going to try an speak for people or put words in people's mouths. Again I would like to see another guild try and of these mobs. He'll I would really like to see a rolled back version of the old fwf crew to current state with 50ish tomes and see what we could do and how the fights would go.

I think a big part of the reason we have been so successful is we have some of the best healers and tanks available. Eisley sniggeren Daishan flotte antinnia asura Triopas bango jr Moraelin apros anti(for a while) crynel having these people allow the fights to run longer and absorb more damage and the tanks tank significantly less damage and have more hps to take higher spiked rounds.

Combine that with the power creep of our best dps having all or almost all of the relevant tomes makes a huge difference from a guild breaking in to us and when these original mobs were baselined and balanced.

I would consider this similar to a project that has a schedule baselined at the beginnings of the project and then redefined as project changes have been made and altered it one way or the other.
 
The original poster may be deein but I don't think everyone is. I am not going to try an speak for people or put words in people's mouths. Again I would like to see another guild try and of these mobs. He'll I would really like to see a rolled back version of the old fwf crew to current state with 50ish tomes and see what we could do and how the fights would go.

I think a big part of the reason we have been so successful is we have some of the best healers and tanks available. Eisley sniggeren Daishan flotte antinnia asura Triopas bango jr Moraelin apros anti(for a while) crynel having these people allow the fights to run longer and absorb more damage and the tanks tank significantly less damage and have more hps to take higher spiked rounds.

Combine that with the power creep of our best dps having all or almost all of the relevant tomes makes a huge difference from a guild breaking in to us and when these original mobs were baselined and balanced.

I would consider this similar to a project that has a schedule baselined at the beginnings of the project and then redefined as project changes have been made and altered it one way or the other.

oh i agree entirely 100%. For a new guild its going to suck and that's why i previously stated this

Personally I do not feel that this is an issue until ANOTHER guild tries to step their game up and attempts the mobs. Only then should the fights be adjusted to actually really benefit someone else.

the only thing holding back SF currently is people not showing up.
 
FWF only did well because you all had GMs in your pocket and super hacks that were undetectable by the FBI. I'm on to you only money will silence me.
 
As usual we are in agreement. I don't think the mobs need tweaked for us to kill them it's for everyone else coming through that may/may not need it.
 
Back
Top Bottom