Paladin HoT agro - alternate aggro suggestions
- Thread starter Vartenaal
- Start date
IMO targeted AOEs are not the way to go. It would restrict it to 3 targets and when you are blind you cannot really be of much assitance to your group. As far as I can see a single new PBAOE at 34 when SKs get there 1st terror and changing the now useless Flame Of Light spell to a PBAOE aggro spell would solve the paladin aoe aggro problem. Taking away the single target aggro blinds would weaken our group and raid capability as we would not be able to lock down aggro on a single target if that is what was needed. We still need to work hard to lock down a single target as it is, those changes imo would make it nearly impossible.
Tempus said:
pb aoe blind is THE 1 paladin spell for getting ae agro, sure it does have a long recast, but its the best one we have for gathering up mobs from party members when you get rushed by a swarm. and paladins were not meant to be nuke machines even to undead, so adding ae dmg spells is pretty useless, cause it doesnt really do any dmg (250 dmg to a mob that has 30+k hp even for simplest xp grps), but what it does do is screw around with mez and in certain raid encounters that is vewy vewy bad. sure for grps you could argue that if were arguing about keeping paladins as AE tanks, then shut up and tank the train - and thats perfectly reasonable. but for raid fights there are some things which simply cannot be tanked all at once no matter how uber a paladin you are, and you have to mez em and keep em mezzed. only way to make sure chanter doesnt die here is by spam agroing the mobs, and since HoT agro was taken out, the ae blind is right on the brink of failing there. so imo another pb aoe blind chain which stacks, even if it would have a smaller agro modifier than wave of light, would be a good way to balance things out.
Manluas
Dalayan Elder
Limiting the single tanking ability of paladins due to making all their aggro spells AE and mana-hefty is perfectly fine with me as said before.
Giving us one or two targetted AE blinds that generate more aggro and last 1-2 ticks shouldn't be that much of a problem. I can assure you that tanking while blind is not that much of a problem - I have done it before, you just have to pay way more attention and should know where you mem'd your spells/what hotkeys are where. Sure adds an interesting aspect to it.
Giving us one or two targetted AE blinds that generate more aggro and last 1-2 ticks shouldn't be that much of a problem. I can assure you that tanking while blind is not that much of a problem - I have done it before, you just have to pay way more attention and should know where you mem'd your spells/what hotkeys are where. Sure adds an interesting aspect to it.
Tempus
Staff Emeritus
Vartenaal said:
Did you even read my suggestions? I proposed one that is a PB AoE Stun with +hate that has no DD that would be prime for CC situations. You want to be able to keep aggro on 3+ mobs forever that are also mezzed, and you don't think that is a bit excessive? I mean come on now. Lets be realistic about what you want the paladin's role to be.
Manluas
Dalayan Elder
I somehow missed that last page of posts so I'll drop a few more words I guess:
First off, I agree with Balthors suggestion about changing flame of light to some sort of AE, along the lines with Tempus' ideas. This includes Blinding Light we get at level 55. In the original brainstorming Tempus and I kinda agreed that giving pallies a single target blind with a short recast and beefy manacost at 65 shouldn't be overpowering. It'd enable us to maintain aggro when shit goes downhill but it'd be hella inefficient for groups.
Second thing: Jose somewhere suggested a PB AoE stun with no dmg and 0.0s stunduration and a longish recast (45s+or so). I'd like to see something like that, not so much as another aggro tool but more along the lines of utility (There are quite some situations where I'd kill for something like that to interrupt casters).
About AoE spells - is it possible to make them hit more then three targets or not at all?
Final note: Vart you're a good paladin and a nice guy but some of the suggestions you have thought off are plain sick. I for myself think that the things Tempus suggested (maybe with some minor tweaks) are quite the way to go rather then just slap more AE's onto the class w/o any withdrawal.
First off, I agree with Balthors suggestion about changing flame of light to some sort of AE, along the lines with Tempus' ideas. This includes Blinding Light we get at level 55. In the original brainstorming Tempus and I kinda agreed that giving pallies a single target blind with a short recast and beefy manacost at 65 shouldn't be overpowering. It'd enable us to maintain aggro when shit goes downhill but it'd be hella inefficient for groups.
Second thing: Jose somewhere suggested a PB AoE stun with no dmg and 0.0s stunduration and a longish recast (45s+or so). I'd like to see something like that, not so much as another aggro tool but more along the lines of utility (There are quite some situations where I'd kill for something like that to interrupt casters).
About AoE spells - is it possible to make them hit more then three targets or not at all?
Final note: Vart you're a good paladin and a nice guy but some of the suggestions you have thought off are plain sick. I for myself think that the things Tempus suggested (maybe with some minor tweaks) are quite the way to go rather then just slap more AE's onto the class w/o any withdrawal.
Manluas said:
haha i like being sick
i guess im still getting over the shock of losing so much agro i really like the "PB AoE stun with no dmg and 0.0s stunduration and a longish recast (45s+or so)" thing though, sounds awesome. most of the stuff i posted is prolly outta the reality ball park but the reason i started this thread was i wanted to see how other pallys are coping with the changes. realistically speaking i think we just need a small agro boost via new blind/stun or w/e, because it IS still possible to keep agro on mobs MOST of the time when grping, but its waaay more mana heavy than before and a lil hard to do when u have only like 2 ae spells to work with. like i said, im still recovering from shock, would appreciate you throwing more food for thought here =)
Manluas
Dalayan Elder
Vartenaal said:
I have to admit that I can work around the changes and it isn't that much of a problem at all - just more mana intensive. This change didn't really nerf pallies, it just forced us to use other tools to get aggro. Is it as easy and the same as it has been? Sure isn't. Is it impossible no? Sure isn't. Are changes in order? Sure are but not to give us more aggro, rather to balance paladins vs. the rest.
I like the way this thread is finally going because it actually goes away from the "OMG I HAVE BEN NERFED!!111!" to some serious suggestions how to make paladins and SK's not sort of copycats of each other. What I'd like to see is some sort of AE utility that is not flat aggro but I'm not sure if that's possible w/o a serious rebalance - just tossing the general idea out there. Can't even come up with an idea.
Salarus
Dalayan Master
I agree, this didnt' nerf pallies at all. Infact, for raids its nice to have a plally spamming group HoT and not pulling aggro with it. However, the sugested changes brought up for lower level spells I believe are a must now that there is not way to get AoE aggro before 60's. I belive the change of our PBaoe light spell may be a bit excessive though. Why don't we just add in a 30's AoE spell that has a small DD and a 50's AoE spell that doesn't.
Daelius
Dalayan Adventurer
Its just me, but as i think about this more, i think it further separates sk's and pallies, in terms of power. I just don't feel that these changes truly balance things out. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for giving pallies more aoe aggro, but even with the slightly less power of single target aggro, i still believe sk's get the short end of the stick. If pallies are going to be given more aoe aggro, then sk's need to be balanced better for single target aggro. Just trying to figure out how to do it without making it trivial for sk's to hold aggro.
Tempus
Staff Emeritus
Daelius said:
This is a discussion I am a big fan of. I started discussing the balance between the 3 tanks in the Balancing Discussion Tweak thread which is a better place IMO since we are moving the conversation beyond Paladin aggro spells and into the realm of Tank Class balance and diversity.
Kirin Folken
Dalayan Elder
I would rather see this msyelf.
CurrentNew
Flash of Light<br>BST(9) PAL(9) SHM(1) CLR(1) <br>Mana 12<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Flash of Light<br>BST(9) PAL(9) SHM(1) CLR(1)<br>Mana 12<br>Single Target| MR 0 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5
Desist<br>PAL(15)<br>Mana 25 | 10.00sec recast<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>Stun (2.50 Seconds)Desist<br>PAL(15)<br>Mana 37 | 10.00sec recast<br>PBAoE | MR 0 Adjust<br>Stun (2.50 Seconds)
Blinding Light<br>PAL(55)<br>Mana 80<br>Single Target | MR -200 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Blinding Light<br>PAL(39)<br>Mana 120<br>PBAoE | MR -50 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-10
Flame of Light<br>PAL(50)<br>Mana 85 | 18.00sec recast<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>125 Direct DamageFlame of Light<br>PAL(50)<br>Mana 120 | 36.00sec recast<br>PBAoE | FR -50 Adjust<br>225 Direct Damage +150 Hate
Wave of Light<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 145<br>PB AoE | MR -75 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Wave of Light<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 145<br>Targeted AoE | MR -150 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-15
Words of Thunder<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 150 | 48.00sec recast<br>PB AoE | MR -35 Adjust<br>Stun (8.00 Sec) | 201 DDWords of Thunder<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 150 | 48.00sec recast<br>PB AoE | MR -100 Adjust<br>Stun (3.00 Sec) | +250 Hate
I can see some use for Targeted AoE blinds... but seriously blinding yourself is not ok. Forceing Paladins to memorize thier hotkeys is not the way to balance Sk vs Pal Aggro.
CurrentNew
Flash of Light<br>BST(9) PAL(9) SHM(1) CLR(1) <br>Mana 12<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Flash of Light<br>BST(9) PAL(9) SHM(1) CLR(1)<br>Mana 12<br>Single Target| MR 0 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5
Desist<br>PAL(15)<br>Mana 25 | 10.00sec recast<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>Stun (2.50 Seconds)Desist<br>PAL(15)<br>Mana 37 | 10.00sec recast<br>PBAoE | MR 0 Adjust<br>Stun (2.50 Seconds)
Blinding Light<br>PAL(55)<br>Mana 80<br>Single Target | MR -200 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Blinding Light<br>PAL(39)<br>Mana 120<br>PBAoE | MR -50 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-10
Flame of Light<br>PAL(50)<br>Mana 85 | 18.00sec recast<br>Single Target | MR 0 Adjust<br>125 Direct DamageFlame of Light<br>PAL(50)<br>Mana 120 | 36.00sec recast<br>PBAoE | FR -50 Adjust<br>225 Direct Damage +150 Hate
Wave of Light<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 145<br>PB AoE | MR -75 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-5Wave of Light<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 145<br>Targeted AoE | MR -150 Adjust<br>Blind & Atk-15
Words of Thunder<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 150 | 48.00sec recast<br>PB AoE | MR -35 Adjust<br>Stun (8.00 Sec) | 201 DDWords of Thunder<br>PAL(62)<br>Mana 150 | 48.00sec recast<br>PB AoE | MR -100 Adjust<br>Stun (3.00 Sec) | +250 Hate
I can see some use for Targeted AoE blinds... but seriously blinding yourself is not ok. Forceing Paladins to memorize thier hotkeys is not the way to balance Sk vs Pal Aggro.
err why is this Words of Thunder doing here and being turned into a pbaoe? Word of the Crusader does that...
PS: any chance on getting the knockback effect removed from this? as it leads to mobs being forced through/stuck in walls which turns into agroing new rooms and/or falling through the world ie First Ruins
PS: any chance on getting the knockback effect removed from this? as it leads to mobs being forced through/stuck in walls which turns into agroing new rooms and/or falling through the world ie First Ruins
Tempus
Staff Emeritus
My thought was a high level, low resist, NON-DAMAGE, +hate, PB AoE Stun for pallies to use in CC situations. There are only so many Pally only spells that were viable candidates for conversion IMO, and if you guys want to be the aoe aggro masters then I am not sure why you are super concerned about losing some of your single target spells.
I would gladly lose Flame of Light as it is and Words of Thunder. However keeping our current single target aggro spells would be important to 1 of our main functions which is tanking in xp groups/ off tanking single raid targets. The mana cost of these single target spells should be increased while the AOE aggro spells should be rather mana efficient. This would make us better at AoE aggro while allowing us the ability to tank a single mob but much less effectively than a warrior or SK.