Paladin BP - Vengeance proc

[stope21]

I don't think that the procs need to be quite so... "paladin" in nature. It seems that the design was to give paladins a bit more dps and that doesnt need to be altered just the way it is achieved does. For example perhaps the bracer could proc a debuff on the mob that increases the dmg it takes for a few ticks, thereby increasing dps a little but not screwing up mezed adds. The bp could do something along a similar line, not saying anything huge but small little perks that are actualy going to increase the pally's dps.

Could possibly make the bp proc lower the ac on the mob for a short period of time to accomplish this.

Could also make the bp a flat out dd on the mob (I like this best, and think it would be very fair). This is exactly what the warrior bp is.

Both are +dps and not detrimental.

personally id love to see an ae agro proc on bp and a self-heal on the bracer

just my 2 cps

This is exactly what the sk bp is... which is INSANELY awesome for an sk who struggles with AE agro. To make a comparable bp proc for a pally, it would have to be a proc that makes the pally tank better (inverting the roles of sk-better tank/pally-ae agro through their procs).

I would love to see the pally thaz bp help the pally in the same way it helps the sk (giving them a taste of the ability of the other knight).

Basically, if sks get ae agro, I want to be a better tank, unresistable agro, or the ability to fd.

 

[Vartenaal]

but the whole idea behind upgraded thaz armor is that it be class-specific in nature. therefore giving paladins a debuff/curse-like effect on the bracer would be:

1) RP incompatible
2) might bring up more SK vs Pally diversity questions

right, just remembered, bracers proc on offensive spells, would be kinda weird having a heal proc on a blind or nuke. i guess a ST agro would be the most logical for the bracer, but then again it wouldnt be that useful, because divine stun and blindling light more than allow u to keep agro unless the mob is highly MR. really at a loss what would be the best logical thing for the bracer.

another idea for the bp proc is perhaps a slightly better than the 64 grp HoT?

keep da ideas flowing and well arrive at an uberly awesome paladin in no time

 

[stope21]

but the whole idea behind upgraded thaz armor is that it be class-specific in nature. therefore giving paladins a debuff/curse-like effect on the bracer would be:

1) RP incompatible
2) might bring up more SK vs Pally diversity questions

SK's getting AE agro is not class-specific in nature. That shit is win, and i want win too.

If they are getting one of my key roles, Is it not fair that we get one of their key roles?

Recount list of sk key roles and how it could translate;
+tanking
fd clicky each time it procs
unresistable agro

 

[Vartenaal]

haha

 

[stope21]

haha

Dono whats so funny. Equality in procs?

I'm not going to sugar coat it: +tanking, fd clicky, or unresistable agro would be win for a pally. Just the way ae agro is win for an sk.

 

[Vartenaal]

what exactly do you mean by +tanking? like an ac buff or smthng or what?

wait a second, totally dont get what u maen by a FD clicky? "fd clicky each time it procs" - how does LOSING agro due to an FD proc help?

a relatively small, yet unresistable agro spell would be awesome though. even with 300 charisma stuff gets resisted pretty often.

 

[stope21]

what exactly do you mean by +tanking? like an ac buff or smthng or what?

A buff that lands on the mob that reduces its atk, strength, acts as a slow. Pick your poison. That's some sk shit right there.

wait a second, totally dont get what u maen by a FD clicky? "fd clicky each time it procs" - how does LOSING agro due to an FD proc help?

That shit just appears in my bag. Just like the clicky you can purchase from fame points, but just 1 charge each. Then I can split like Jose after I accumulate enough.


The whole point was more to say, "It would be cool if we got something good. Both the sk and warrior bps are very nice and the pally one isn't." I dont actually believe the devs would give pallies a nice tanking debuff and it wouldn't be fair for pallies to be able to accumulate fd clickes even if they were no rent.

a relatively small, yet unresistable agro spell would be awesome though. even with 300 charisma stuff gets resisted pretty often.

This is probably going to be the thing to lobby for.

I wouldnt say "small," either. I would say it would need to be somewhere in the neighborhood of 300-500 hate to make it comparably good. 300 being disappointing, 500 being awesome, 400 being acceptable.

If the dev's absolutely want to stick to the dps role, best thing I can come up with for now is a dd proc.

 

[Vartenaal]

how much hate does divine stun, blinding light and wave of light generate do u know?

 

[stope21]

how much hate does divine stun, blinding light and wave of light generate do u know?

I am no too sure how much hate they generate, I can however offer you the following.

If you are trying to assess ammount of hate that would be reasonable; I would recommend basing this off the ammount of hate generated by the sk bp proc.

It generates 110 hate/target.
3 targets = 330 hate
4 targets = 440 hate
5 targets = 550 hate

SK spells:
Terror of Kaezul (lvl 63) - 675 hate
Terror of Marlow (lvl 59) - 510 hate
Terror of Death (lvl 53) - 450 hate
Even their lvl 44 terror is 400 hate.

So getting a proc of 400 unresistable hate on your bp would be equivelent of a lvl 44 sk spell.

 

[Vartenaal]

ya then id say 450 agro is fair for this, maybe even a little too low. will check this out with some1 who has a good spell base/parser.

iono what your playing style is but when i tank stuff i constantly spam DS, and blinds. gonna have to see how much agro they generate though

 

[Mythryn]

The entire Paladin set is focused on increasing a paladins DPS while still keeping them at #3 in the tank order, which they do. I'm all for changing the proc on the BP, since it can be rendered useless with server ticks, but keep in mind that it accomplishes what it was designed to do.

Stope's hate theorycrafting numbers are way off, by the way.

 

[stope21]

Stope's hate theorycrafting numbers are way off, by the way.

How are my numbers off?

The entire Paladin set is focused on increasing a paladins DPS while still keeping them at #3 in the tank order, which they do. I'm all for changing the proc on the BP, since it can be rendered useless with server ticks, but keep in mind that it accomplishes what it was designed to do.

The sk set is focused on what, then? Their items range from having a number of effects. Then bam, sk bp gets a pally type effect? The sets arn't congruent.


I just thought of another way to increase pally dps through the bp: Make it a clicky effect.

Then, if you have the buff slot, you can use it. This could be similar to the bard bp, but instead give you a +atk buff.

 

[Miffy]

How about the pally bp proc instantly summons a sk pet, that would be a tiny bit more dps and not eat a buff slot But seriously maybe it could be like that little cleric hammer pet that lasts one fight, prolly not gonna do much but it would add some dps and not be detrimental at least.

 

[Mythryn]

Warriors get an AE agro and a defensive proc on their BP, why aren't you crying about that? Or the agro they get on their boots? I agree that the sets are a little odd, but all of them are, it's not just Paladin vs. Shadowknight. Would I rather the Crit% or Ferocity on the SK set be turned into AC or HP? I'm all for it. Do I think that's balanced? No. Do I think Paladins would cry more if it happened? Sure do.

Let me stress again that the Thaz class items are not meant to be compared piece by piece, but as a whole set. That doesn't mean I don't think some pieces are a litle off, because I do.

And the clicky vengeance idea was shot down by Xeldan awhile ago, but maybe a new dev might take a different look at it. I personally thing making it a 12 second 200 ATK clicky would be a great idea.

 

[stope21]

Warriors get an AE agro and a defensive proc on their BP, why aren't you crying about that? Or the agro they get on their boots? I agree that the sets are a little odd, but all of them are, it's not just Paladin vs. Shadowknight. Would I rather the Crit% or Ferocity on the SK set be turned into AC or HP? I'm all for it. Do I think that's balanced? No. Do I think Paladins would cry more if it happened? Sure do.

Let me stress again that the Thaz class items are not meant to be compared piece by piece, but as a whole set. That doesn't mean I don't think some pieces are a litle off, because I do.

And the clicky vengeance idea was shot down by Xeldan awhile ago, but maybe a new dev might take a different look at it. I personally thing making it a 12 second 200 ATK clicky would be a great idea.

1) Who is crying? You're posting in a thread that doesn't effect you one way or another saying people are crying, that's classy.

2) Last time I checked, the warrior bp was single target. Be a good boy and provide some details with your statement. If you need some examples of details, you can see the post I made earlier where I went so far as to list exactly how much hate your bp proc generates. I even listed some other spell names and hate ammounts when I was further analyzing my suggestion.

3) All the 3 plate tanks have procs on bp, only the warrior has the proc on their boots. Furthermore, they dont have some detrimental aspect on them. Even if they had detrimental proc, its optional to kick, unlike bp procs which proc on their own.

4) You can stress all you want to that the sets arn't always equal. I was receptive of this point the first time it was said. The original issue here is that the proc is in some cases detrimental. There is no reason for such an extremely high teir bp to have something that can hurt the wearer. This is the issue. I have analyzed and suggested 3 different ways the proc could be changed.

I will list my suggestions for you again:
a) Unresistable agro (comparing it to sk proc)
b) DD proc (compared to warrior proc)
c) Clicky atk buff (a non detrimental version of what is on it now)

Wow, there is 3 seemingly fair changes that could be made to the pally bp proc to make it not suck. Sounds like crying to me.

 

[Miffy]

d) little cleric hammer pet, come on how cool would that be!?

And ya no one is crying, it just seems wrong for such a high-end item (or two) to have an effect that wearers would rather have flat out removed if they are not going to be replaced. At this point I would say that the procs on these two pieces are more than just "a little off" whether we are looking at the set as a whole or not, or comparing to other sets is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

Regardless of what other classes have the bottom line is:
1) BP proc is useless at best and takes a buff slot you might be trying to use (ie runes) at worst
2) Bracer proc is a minor bit useful at best and wipes raids at worst

I understand that yes we can swap these pieces out when it is needed but the point is should such high end, difficult to obtain and class specific armor have procs that are negative for their wearers?

 

[stope21]

d) little cleric hammer pet, come on how cool would that be!?

Would certainly be cool. But they already have this on an item. Fomelo my belt. Summons a "scrawny ittle feller."

2) Bracer proc is a minor bit useful at best and wipes raids at worst

To be completely fair; it could only proc when using damaging type spells. So at this point, are we assuming it goes off on all detrimentals and not just our dd's?

For example, on Tuor (sanctum bracer), does the dd component go off when casting detrimentals or just damaging spells? Some confirmation on this would probably be ideal before we get too far ahead of ourselves. I havn't had the time to test my bracer enough (for all i know it doesn't proc at all).

If it does just go off damaging detrimental, this brings up the question: How frequently are pallies casting these types of spells?

 

[Kelval]

[...]
To be completely fair; it could only proc when using damaging type spells. So at this point, are we assuming it goes off on all detrimentals and not just our dd's?
[...]

I knowfor a fact that bracer procs on any kind of detrimental. I used to wake up alot of mezzed mobs while trying to slow/debuff them while using the malign bracelet of venom (that quest where you need to find spider poison sacks).

It means it would most likely go off while you blind or stun. Not sure if it does matter or not, but it can wake up a mezzed mob way too early.

 

[Dzillon]

I like the swarmpet idea, as a clicky thoughand not a proc - currently the belt you're linking (Unsheath) is a clicky - plus the talk isn't about itemization out there but of a single class piece of gear.

(edited typo)

 

[Mythryn]

Bracer procs depend on the type of spell the proc is. If the proc is a beneficial, it's only going to go off on beneficial spells, detrimental on detrimental spells. I used a DD proc bracer from Emberflow for months and maybe work up 1 mezzed mob, but thats because Terrors are such low mana cost (chance to proc factors in mana cost of the spell you're casting, higher the mana, higher the chance to proc)