Paladin: Better than Live?

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Wesell

Dalayan Elder
Pick up raids for VD maps don't happen that often and preference is given to tanks with better than DM gear and Main Tank has to be well geared way above DM to survive.

Lots of people have done VD maps and other stuff without being over-geared, it's certainly possible. Doing VD maps for the first time will be hard for a paladin or any other character and you'll probably fail some. The entire game is designed to be challenging for every class.

I don't know if I would say the game is designed for raiders. If you ignore a portion of the game's content (grouping, raiding, or questing) you will run out of things to do sooner.
 

Goldfolk

Dalayan Elder
I would love to see a VD map tanked by 3 pallys in DM. It may very well be possible but a bad spawn would require very very good healing indeed.

I remember 1 VD chest spawn of 4 imps with 3 of us at DM plus and we were eaten alive.

Conversely I did solo tank several waves at 1600 AC with uber healing and pathetic CC.

Now at 1870 AC and 9k it's not a great problem even without CC

Point I was trying to make is, not what is possible or not but what actually happens in game.

VD pickups want solid tanks and prefer a maintank with chunky AC and hitpoints, they tend to be more tolerant of DPS because they want a max of 3 tanks but want 9-12 DPS

Sorry I meant that game design means you have to raid at a high level to enjoy all the content. No amount of XP grinding will help a Paladin get to higher level dungeons without raid gear. As such progression is designed aorund raiding.
 

Wesell

Dalayan Elder
Point I was trying to make is, not what is possible or not but what actually happens in game.
I'm telling you, it does happen in game. When a guild is progressing on tier 3 stuff they will do tons of VD maps. It takes a whole raid and sometimes a bad pop will result in a wipe.

I would love to see a VD map tanked by 3 pallys in DM. It may very well be possible but a bad spawn would require very very good healing indeed.
When you and your friends are trying to beat something for the first few times - yes everybody has to play "good". I don't see how this is some kind of problem.

VD pickups want solid tanks and prefer a maintank with chunky AC and hitpoints, they tend to be more tolerant of DPS because they want a max of 3 tanks but want 9-12 DPS
What happens in pickup groups doesn't even enter into the equation. The game is designed to be a challenge. A group of random people who have never worked together before will probably have a tough time without help from some kind of ringer.

I agree that you need a guild if you want to play a large portion of this game. This is not a flaw in the Paladin class. The game is designed to be decently challenging when played by a team of 18 friends.

Maybe an analogy will help clarify my point. It's as if you are claiming that being a softball pitcher is a bad positions to play because, if you don't want to join a softball team and instead want to hang around the park trying to pitch in pickup games it'll be hard to get in one. You could play outfield and you would probably find it easier to get into some pickup games. This might be true, but it's not really very relevant advice. If you just want to play catch, fine don't join a team, but if you want to play some games, you need to join a team because softball is a team sport.
 

Notpit

Dalayan Beginner
If you think the recent change to knights have made this question hard to answer then you still haven't played a shadowknight, at least extensively.


Paladin is still one of the best classes in game.

I disagree.

No, I do not play sk extensively. My alt sk is only level 57. But the original question has nothing to do with shadow knights. On Live there were some real issues with Paladins. Recently, Paladins have been the subject to several nerfs. As such I don't think anyone knows where they will end up. Based on these two experiences, one can rationally be concerned and be unable to determine if Paladin will be a good class to choose. And the equipment requirements for any tank are pretty huge for a first toon.
 

Otcho

Dalayan Pious Diety
I disagree.

No, I do not play sk extensively. My alt sk is only level 57. But the original question has nothing to do with shadow knights. On Live there were some real issues with Paladins. Recently, Paladins have been the subject to several nerfs. As such I don't think anyone knows where they will end up. Based on these two experiences, one can rationally be concerned and be unable to determine if Paladin will be a good class to choose. And the equipment requirements for any tank are pretty huge for a first toon.


Or you could read the reasons behind the nerfs are realize that paladins were up there in ridiculous shit that was not intended, for example them out mitigating all of the tanks with their stance or how blind aggro was notworking as intended and giving them not only amazing tanking abilities (with original /s 4) and ridiculous aggro on raid mobs.

The weapon nerf has changed absolutely nothing for knights in the raid game unless your way to fucking serious about min/maxing. Or maybe trying to tank a mob who silences.

Paladins on a whole are the biggest fucking cry babies about fixes to their class that I have ever seen and I was here when endless quiver got changed. It just astounds me at how they are the only class who will make themselves out as this horrible useless abomination of clerics and warriors and forbidden sex but then you get to the people who don't play a paladin and its completely the opposite perception.

Paladin is an amazing class at the moment and is still up there for over powered #1 group tank, you have serious benefits to raids whether the above people think you do or not. You will be no more crippled doing anything then anyone else because you have bad gear. You will eventually find a high end guild to take you if your toon is adequate and you're not entirely brain dead.


Enjoy paladin, its pretty fun.
 
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Notpit

Dalayan Beginner
Angry words

I recommend some therapy. You seem to have some lingering issues regarding Paladins in the past.

And yes, of course removing 25% of a tank's melee aggro affects the end game. Surely you realize what a silly thing to say that remark is.

But again, twice I have expressed my opinion. I understand that you disagree. Thank you for expressing your disagreement.
 

Braveguard

Dalayan Beginner
Or you could read the reasons behind the nerfs are realize that paladins were up there in ridiculous shit that was not intended, for example them out mitigating all of the tanks with their stance or how blind aggro was notworking as intended and giving them not only amazing tanking abilities (with original /s 4) and ridiculous aggro on raid mobs.

The weapon nerf has changed absolutely nothing for knights in the raid game unless your way to fucking serious about min/maxing. Or maybe trying to tank a mob who silences.

Paladins on a whole are the biggest fucking cry babies about fixes to their class that I have ever seen and I was here when endless quiver got changed. It just astounds me at how they are the only class who will make themselves out as this horrible useless abomination of clerics and warriors and forbidden sex but then you get to the people who don't play a paladin and its completely the opposite perception.

Paladin is an amazing class at the moment and is still up there for over powered #1 group tank, you have serious benefits to raids whether the above people think you do or not. You will be no more crippled doing anything then anyone else because you have bad gear. You will eventually find a high end guild to take you if your toon is adequate and you're not entirely brain dead.


Enjoy paladin, its pretty fun.

I will enjoy it. If I don't, I'll switch. If the class busts up enjoyment for enough people to switch, they'll realize they've screwed it up. Those of you who have a paladin that thinks that it is busted should take note of this. A low population of paladins will speak way louder than all the complaints you can post.

On the other hand, maybe people complain a lot because there is something to complain about. It's been my experience that you only hear complaints often when there are real concerns.
 

Cyzaine

Staff Emeritus
It's been my experience that people only speak up when they want to complain, and stay quiet if they don't care either way.
 

calaran

Dalayan Beginner
People often complain very loudly when things change, no matter what the change is. People don't like change at all. I'm not saying this change has made the class better, but if that argument were to be made, it would have to be noted that it's better but you have to do and think of things completely different. One of the hardest things as a game designer/developer is to emotionally distance yourself from the first responses, filter out the few useful suggestions and valid complaints and not get too hurt by the fury.

Oftentimes when things die down, sometimes months later, the players finally see and understand what the developer was going for.

Oh and also sometimes months later it's realized that the change was terrible and it's rolled back, just to be fair.

I am hoping and expecting the former, given enough time for the staff to utilize the itemization flexibility they now have.
 

Dinadass

Dalayan Pious Diety
Or you could read the reasons behind the nerfs are realize that paladins were up there in ridiculous shit that was not intended, for example them out mitigating all of the tanks with their stance or how blind aggro was notworking as intended and giving them not only amazing tanking abilities (with original /s 4) and ridiculous aggro on raid mobs.

The weapon nerf has changed absolutely nothing for knights in the raid game unless your way to fucking serious about min/maxing. Or maybe trying to tank a mob who silences.

Paladins on a whole are the biggest fucking cry babies about fixes to their class that I have ever seen and I was here when endless quiver got changed. It just astounds me at how they are the only class who will make themselves out as this horrible useless abomination of clerics and warriors and forbidden sex but then you get to the people who don't play a paladin and its completely the opposite perception.

Paladin is an amazing class at the moment and is still up there for over powered #1 group tank, you have serious benefits to raids whether the above people think you do or not. You will be no more crippled doing anything then anyone else because you have bad gear. You will eventually find a high end guild to take you if your toon is adequate and you're not entirely brain dead.


Enjoy paladin, its pretty fun.

Honestly, even with the bash aggro update that went in recently, in any non-undead zone I'd rather have a SK or warrior tanking in my group now, unless it's someone boxing ringo/gono or something. Paladin single target aggro in group situations is BAD atm, and it's very obvious to anyone who groups with them. Having to chain feign death and eat assistance penalties while doing ~250 DPS with a pally tank who outgears me is not the way it should work. Bards, rangers, and monks can probably hold single target aggro more reliably than pallies atm.

Shadowknights can toss a single aggro spell on each mob in a pull and then go back to the original one, and unless your group is doing heavy AE damage, that's all that is needed. Grinding in deep FR, Everchill, Hmal, etc has been easier with a SK tank than with a paladin tank since the aggro nerf. Trying to effectively control SK and Paladin dps/aggro with blanket changes to both classes and knight equipment doesn't take into consideration the fact that pally single target aggro was a lot more reliant on melee damage than SK aggro was.

Once there is a change to make 2hand tanking a better option for pallies maybe this will change, but as it stands now the only times I'd request a pally for a grind group would be in HHK or Cata. Even then I'd only do that if it was a heavy melee group.
 

metvayne1

Dalayan Beginner
Bards, rangers, and monks can probably hold single target aggro more reliably than pallies atm.

Please, tell me your joking. Also, any dps class can hold aggro reliably if they try, this is why they have jolts and tanks do not.

If I wanted to maximize exp for any exp group I would do outside of like emberflow, I would most likely bot a paladin friend's toon.

Paladins. Stop. Whining.
 

Dinadass

Dalayan Pious Diety
Please, tell me your joking. Also, any dps class can hold aggro reliably if they try, this is why they have jolts and tanks do not.

If I wanted to maximize exp for any exp group I would do outside of like emberflow, I would most likely bot a paladin friend's toon.

Paladins. Stop. Whining.

hi I'm a monk, I don't even have a paladin alt/twink or anything. I'm simply relying on my experience boxing different tanks, and grouping with different ones.

As it stands, my monk does roughly 3-4 times more melee DPS than a similarly geared paladin using a onehander and shield. To make up for the aggro difference, paladins have several stuns (which generate much less aggro than they do on live) 2 different blinds which don't generate additional aggro until the effect from the previous application expires, and the bash bonus aggro. Last night the SK in my group tried out bash aggro, and with 4 tomes, better haste, and a shield with (I believe) almost 90 ac, could not hold aggro off a boxxed ranger with 0% haste items, under 100 AA, and t6 onehanders. Of course using bash alone shouldn't generate heaps of aggro since knights should still have to cast, but the SK and myself both came to the conclusion that for him, there was no noticeable aggro improvement over meleeing alone. He switched back to a twohander.

My point is this- With the way that blind works (not generating additional aggro until the effect wears off) paladins are hard-capped at a certain single target aggro generation. When they could actually deal meaningful melee DPS, this aggro amount was generally sufficient to maintain aggro. DPS classes still had to control aggro via feign/evade/jolt/concuss/etc, which is how it should be. Right now, the single target aggro generation of paladins is lower than previous, and in my opinion it is too low.

There are a few different ways to fix this. Allowing paladins to mitigate enough damage with a twohander to make tanking without a shield viable would bump their melee DPS up enough to generate sufficient single target aggro. Changing Flame of Light to do more damage, possibly with a debuff or something on it, would also help. Paladins are still (as far as I'm aware) supposed to be the highest DPS tank of the 3 tank classes, and right now they are the lowest. Either of these changes would help address this.

And as to my statement regarding other DPS classes being able to generate better single target aggro than paladins atm: My monk easily out-aggros any similarly geared/AAed paladin if I don't feign, so monks can definitely generate more single target aggro. Rangers and bards using things like atk debuffs, snares, slows, etc in addition to melee DPS that far exceeds paladin DPS, can likewise generate more single target aggro.
 
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