Paladin agro just sucks beyond Tier 8. DPS classes get upgrades so their DPS increases in kind; meanwhile, Paladin agro has plateaued. It's sad that Rangers hold better agro. Any thoughts for bringing Paladin agro more in line with at least warriors? Maybe revert stun agro back to what it used to be and to a lesser degree the good knight 1-hander ratios?
Paladin agro (yes everyone knows it's horrible)
- Thread starter Atada
- Start date
I don't think it is true that rangers, rogues, or wizards hold aggro better than paladins. They generate more aggro. They have means to rid themselves of that aggro. They just have to cast more spells and click more buttons to help a paladin hold aggro. They don't like to do this. They deal more damage and click less buttons by not doing this. I don't think any class, in order to play their role well, has to cast more spells and click more buttons than a paladin does while tanking a mob.
I think maybe blinds should work similarly to veils. While a monster is blinded by a paladin, a percentage of the damage dealt to that mob is credited to the paladin's aggro. It kind of makes sense to me, in that, for example: a brownie who is actively attacking a paladin is blinded by a sudden light, then a wizard nukes for 12 million damage, the brownie runs over to the wizard and the wizard asks how he got aggro. How could that brownie have possibly known that it was the hulking wizard who nuked him and not the frail paladin he is attacking? Also, sorry to shadow knights who feel their awesome aggro ability is being poached by jealous paladin threads. Maybe SKs deserve group hots too.
I think maybe blinds should work similarly to veils. While a monster is blinded by a paladin, a percentage of the damage dealt to that mob is credited to the paladin's aggro. It kind of makes sense to me, in that, for example: a brownie who is actively attacking a paladin is blinded by a sudden light, then a wizard nukes for 12 million damage, the brownie runs over to the wizard and the wizard asks how he got aggro. How could that brownie have possibly known that it was the hulking wizard who nuked him and not the frail paladin he is attacking? Also, sorry to shadow knights who feel their awesome aggro ability is being poached by jealous paladin threads. Maybe SKs deserve group hots too.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
I haven't grouped with a high tier pally lately, but for the weeks/months I did after the monk combo system was implemented, I basically could not group with pallies without either causing assist penalties from having to FD so often or just tanking mobs myself from 50-0%. It was a problem with warriors and SKs too but was noticeably worse with pallies, even Bango. High tier pallies have to basically spam their runic 2 and end up running out of mana before long, while still generating bad aggro compared to the other tanks.
Tevinter
Dalayan Pious Diety
Pretty much this. My tier 8ish scumbag poverty monk alt cant even group with lower tier tanks without having to feign every combo, or just tank the mobs instead but if i wanted to tank things i would just box a tank instead or go duo.
Lind, I'm not asking for SK agro since that is their pride and joy which is why they are used to tank endgame, not wars and certainty not pals. What I was talking about was being on par with war so that we can live up to the name "tank class" since one of the most important things about being a tank is holding agro. Rangers can generate agro and hold it, a paladin should be able to do the same at this level. I'm not asking for anything new here, just to reinstate what once was.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
Paladin aggro has been brought up numerous times before, end result is have dps not be bad and play like a paladin is tanking.
cian2
Dalayan Master
blind-ae blind-blind in rapid succession, then stun, blind again when it wears off. repeat triple combo. bash the whole time.
it sucks that you have to cast so much that you cant stop to heal, but it's not too hard to tank as a paladin. once you get runic2 it becomes pretty easy.
it sucks that you have to cast so much that you cant stop to heal, but it's not too hard to tank as a paladin. once you get runic2 it becomes pretty easy.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
If anything needs to be done add small aggro for ghots and self heals. Maybe the same numbers as blind or ae blind respectively. I wouldn't mind a bard song buff that gives a 5% or so veil type ability on blinds. I don't think the ae aggro needs adjusted any or much at all they are still the best there.
Nwaij
Dalayan Pious Diety
Could even add that 5% veil thing into their ghots *shrug*
This may sound like an extreme idea, but I would rather lose all tanking ability (single target aggro and mitigation) in favor of becoming a pure utility class. Its already been established that paladins have the worst mitigation of the tank classes, laughable aggro generation, and the Hand_of_Jyre himself has been called ineffective at holding aggro off a monk near his tier. It would be a radical change but having our good group hots and AoE aggro ability, along with improved 2 hand slashing or something like that, could make it fun to play. Zealous Might could flip into a beefed up Conduit of Althuna, which I think is an awesome ( though underutilized) spell and a cool idea for a 'new' direction of the paladin niche.
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
My pally was having major agro issues prior to getting an Ansagg and having heal agro minorly upped. I'm currently sitting at tier 6ish with an overtier bad ass 2 hand weapon. I don't have runic 2, nor do I have my refuge spell.
- I'm not too bad at keeping agro when grouped with tier 7ish and lower (as long as group members know a pally is tanking and I use my Ansagg.)
- Anyone, higher tiered and I'm fucked come 30%ish into the fight.
- On tier AE groups make it hard for me to keep agro through the fight due to the cool down times on my AE spells.
- I have a VERY hard time holding agro with my on tier 1 hander and shield. Really, it is a crap shoot.
Again, I don't have my refuge spell, but I clearly feel like agro needs to scale better up until the runic 2. I can't speak for at that point or later.
I have a few ideas that could help:
1. I really feel that both DD heals and group HoT agro should be much higher. This way using heals while tanking, as seems to be intended, is actually possible. Why would someone who is tanking and healing not piss the mob off?
2. I feel like the heal should generate agro no matter the heal amount (is this already the case, because it doesn't seem like it.) When Blessing of Malath is down, Touch of vitality is the heal to use but is a 4 second cast time... That is forever when tanking stuff that actually smacks you down. Even with the long cast time, I find it better to use than Remedy. The problem is, if I'm casting it and someone heals me to full before it lands, I lose agro generation for the cast time + cool down + next spell cast time (outside of bash/melee). This is really bad!
3. I feel like the style Lady's Strike (/s 7) is total crap. Other paladin please correct me if I am wrong! This is compounded that we spend 90% of the time casting instead of meleeing (as I guess this procs off melee?) Not to mention, a good portion of the time when we are AE agroing, we want to be in the style Guarding Blade (/s 4). I have no ideas on how to make this better, but I feel like this could be turned into some form of AE agro that is actually useful. IMO Whirlwind would even be better!
4. Part of our agro problem is that our DPS it total shit on anything not undead (which is less mobs with the recent bane changes.) If our DPS was increased, we would hold agro better. Maybe it isn't an option, but I can dream.
5. If a mob is MR immune/super resistant, we basically can't keep agro because all we have is bash/melee and Divine Stun. Do the other tanks have this problem? Make Words of Thunder, Word of the Crusader, Wave of Light, and Blinding Light unresistable. This will up the agro in general because of the increased agro of unresistable spells, and it will make it possible to keep agro on mobs that have super high MR.
6. Up the agro significantly on Divine Stun.
7. Make an AE divine stun AA that is on the same timer as divine stun. This will help AAed tanks keep agro in AE situations, where paladin are clearly suppose to shine.
8. Agro with, at least any of my, on tier 1 handers is SOO bad. I've gone through a bunch while leveling/gearing, and it has always been the same. I don't really have any ideas on this one that would scale well. Maybe some sort of pally class agro bonus based on mob DPS when the pally is using a shield.
Many of these ideas will effect all levels of paladin having agro issues. Maybe more than one is needed to correct the issue... I'm just throwing out suggestions...
- I'm not too bad at keeping agro when grouped with tier 7ish and lower (as long as group members know a pally is tanking and I use my Ansagg.)
- Anyone, higher tiered and I'm fucked come 30%ish into the fight.
- On tier AE groups make it hard for me to keep agro through the fight due to the cool down times on my AE spells.
- I have a VERY hard time holding agro with my on tier 1 hander and shield. Really, it is a crap shoot.
Again, I don't have my refuge spell, but I clearly feel like agro needs to scale better up until the runic 2. I can't speak for at that point or later.
I have a few ideas that could help:
1. I really feel that both DD heals and group HoT agro should be much higher. This way using heals while tanking, as seems to be intended, is actually possible. Why would someone who is tanking and healing not piss the mob off?
2. I feel like the heal should generate agro no matter the heal amount (is this already the case, because it doesn't seem like it.) When Blessing of Malath is down, Touch of vitality is the heal to use but is a 4 second cast time... That is forever when tanking stuff that actually smacks you down. Even with the long cast time, I find it better to use than Remedy. The problem is, if I'm casting it and someone heals me to full before it lands, I lose agro generation for the cast time + cool down + next spell cast time (outside of bash/melee). This is really bad!
3. I feel like the style Lady's Strike (/s 7) is total crap. Other paladin please correct me if I am wrong! This is compounded that we spend 90% of the time casting instead of meleeing (as I guess this procs off melee?) Not to mention, a good portion of the time when we are AE agroing, we want to be in the style Guarding Blade (/s 4). I have no ideas on how to make this better, but I feel like this could be turned into some form of AE agro that is actually useful. IMO Whirlwind would even be better!
4. Part of our agro problem is that our DPS it total shit on anything not undead (which is less mobs with the recent bane changes.) If our DPS was increased, we would hold agro better. Maybe it isn't an option, but I can dream.
5. If a mob is MR immune/super resistant, we basically can't keep agro because all we have is bash/melee and Divine Stun. Do the other tanks have this problem? Make Words of Thunder, Word of the Crusader, Wave of Light, and Blinding Light unresistable. This will up the agro in general because of the increased agro of unresistable spells, and it will make it possible to keep agro on mobs that have super high MR.
6. Up the agro significantly on Divine Stun.
7. Make an AE divine stun AA that is on the same timer as divine stun. This will help AAed tanks keep agro in AE situations, where paladin are clearly suppose to shine.
8. Agro with, at least any of my, on tier 1 handers is SOO bad. I've gone through a bunch while leveling/gearing, and it has always been the same. I don't really have any ideas on this one that would scale well. Maybe some sort of pally class agro bonus based on mob DPS when the pally is using a shield.
Many of these ideas will effect all levels of paladin having agro issues. Maybe more than one is needed to correct the issue... I'm just throwing out suggestions...
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SKs have zero AOE aggro, something that cannot be underfrickenstated.
I'll take the word of you t8+ people that your aggro is not the same as an SK, but 99% of the game paladins are an easier class to play than SKs with a ton'oh'shit buttons to mash.
A non-asleep paladin can save the group how often with LoH? A paladin can grab aggro how easily on a pack of mobs that is nearly all the grinding aspect of getting to that loftly t10.
I'm not opposed to beefing paladin aggro, but SKs should get an AOE to compensate.
Balance is an incredibly difficult matter, but consider AOE aggro a factor that is useful for 99% of all pulls and fights and the fact that SKs dont have any.
I'll take the word of you t8+ people that your aggro is not the same as an SK, but 99% of the game paladins are an easier class to play than SKs with a ton'oh'shit buttons to mash.
A non-asleep paladin can save the group how often with LoH? A paladin can grab aggro how easily on a pack of mobs that is nearly all the grinding aspect of getting to that loftly t10.
I'm not opposed to beefing paladin aggro, but SKs should get an AOE to compensate.
Balance is an incredibly difficult matter, but consider AOE aggro a factor that is useful for 99% of all pulls and fights and the fact that SKs dont have any.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
What is your 1h and what shield do you use?
The anger proc from valor a shield is pretty solid.
Hysteria from cmal is pretty solid aggro generation.
The anger proc from valor a shield is pretty solid.
Hysteria from cmal is pretty solid aggro generation.
Moraelintz
Dalayan Elder
Also do you have yoru vah knight sword?
Daffie
Dalayan Pious Diety
I currently use a Hammer of Warding and I literally just switched from Reverent Aegis to a Phase Ward (yay stun resist and more hp!)
Edit - Nope on vah sword. I'm on Oracle Eyes still, and I would be missing quite a few Peerless Midnight Pearls (though I'm trying to get them!)
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actually shadowknights do have a 100 damage or so pbaoe that works pretty well for xp zones. it at least gets the mobs on you allowing you when you first pull and allows you to get some terrors on them. for duoing its amazing since you wont get aggro on your healer unless you suck.
also i always thought paladins need slightly more aggro. i like the idea of having paladins get heal aggro. also maybe a fire based blind that is identical to their other good single target blind, like some sort of holy fire type thing. a fire based spell (or really non magic but fire seemed like it fits thematically with paladins) would give them another aggro option for mobs that are magic immune.
also the cooldown on paladin spells in general sucks. their spells take forever to refresh.
My thoughts being a pretty high teir paladin... again... Because as stated this has been brought up a number of times to no avail.
Options as I see it:
1. Add aggro to ghots / heals. Why it was taken away in the first place has always been a mystery to me.
2. Divine stun is already unresistable, so add a better aggro component that would allow better use of heals, instead of having to cast blind / ae blind / blind / flame of light constantly.
3. DPS is aggro, and paladins are by far the lowest tank DPS, and its not just by a little bit. I average approx 200~Dps (with 46% haste) and a 4.3 sword. Any equivalent SK is around 500, and warriors anywhere from 600-900dps depending the fight. That is a HUGE gap.
Options as I see it:
1. Add aggro to ghots / heals. Why it was taken away in the first place has always been a mystery to me.
2. Divine stun is already unresistable, so add a better aggro component that would allow better use of heals, instead of having to cast blind / ae blind / blind / flame of light constantly.
3. DPS is aggro, and paladins are by far the lowest tank DPS, and its not just by a little bit. I average approx 200~Dps (with 46% haste) and a 4.3 sword. Any equivalent SK is around 500, and warriors anywhere from 600-900dps depending the fight. That is a HUGE gap.
Dinadass
Dalayan Pious Diety
SK runic 2 is amazing AOE aggro. But even before that, SKs can hold aggro on multiple targets easily as long as you're good at swapping between them. 8 targets or something is a different story, but 3-4 mobs is no problem.
Also, pallies used to be able to generate AOE aggro through heals, and then heals had their aggro all but eliminated.