Ornate Giant armor in comparison to Deepmetal/Shadowsilk

Temellin

Temellin

*Gnomalicious*
I think that currently Ornate Giant armor is a bit under powered in comparison to some of the trade skill items, with the way the system currently works the only real reason to get the ornate is so that you can upgrade it to combine. With the trade skill items having 2 aug slots and better stats in most cases could something be done to bring the quest armor up to par with it?
Currently the Deepmetal Platemail Breastplate is better than the Ornate Stormforged Breastplate because of its stats (And you can still get the benefit of the clickie from the Ornate BP)
The Deepmetal:
Code: 
Deepmetal Platemail Breastplate
[MAGIC ITEM]
Slot: CHEST
AC: 38
STR: +7 STA: +7 AGI: +7 DEX: +7 CHA: +7 HP: +85 MANA: +85
MR: +10
Weight: 25.0 Size: Large
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: All
Slot 1 Type 2
Slot 2 Type 2

Compared to Ornate Stormforged Breastplate

Code: 
[MAGIC ITEM] [NO DROP]
Slot: CHEST
AC: 41
Effect: Blessing of the Giant (Must wear, Clicky, 15.0)
STR: +7 STA: +7 WIS: +9 INT: +9 HP: +60 MANA: +40
MR: +10 FR: +3 CR: +3 DR: +3 PR: +3
Weight: 25.0 Size: Large
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: All
Slot 1 Type 2

From a tank point of view:
The Ornate has 41 AC (46 AC with good aug), 10 MR and +3 to the rest, 60 Raw HP and 7 STA.
The Deepmetal has 38 AC (48 With 2 good augs) 10MR also, 85 Raw HP and 7 STA

Now the logical choice for most guilds looking to gear a MT would be to go with the Deepmetal, much less work is needed in getting it (Just find a smith who can make it and earn some coin to buy it with) in comparison to the hours of faction work needed to even get to the point where you can get an ornate BP, getting the first BP to drop, and then getting the gems from NDHK. Ornate wasn't needed for combine it wouldn't even be worth it save for the nice HP clicky on it, even then you don't have to keep it on to reap the benefits of it.

So how could Ornate be brought up to the same level as Deepmetal? If it has an added aug slot, maybe some boosted HP then it would be worth getting as soon as possible, instead of just when ever so you can have the HP clicky and turn it into combine later. Not really sure on this one, feed back would be appreciated.

Now onto the Ornate Stormwoven Silk in comparison to Shadow Silk
The Shadow Silk Shirt
Code: 
Shadow Silk Shirt
[MAGIC ITEM]
Slot: CHEST
AC: 20
STA: +1 STR: +1 DEX: +1 AGI: +1 CHA: +12 WIS: +12 INT: +12 HP: +60 MANA: +100
SVMAGIC: +5 SVFIRE: +5 SVCOLD: +5 SVDISEASE: +5 SVPOISON: +5
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.6 Class: ALL
Race: ALL

In comparison to the Ornate Robe

Code: 
Ornate Stormwoven Silk Robe
[MAGIC ITEM] [NO DROP]
Slot: CHEST
AC: 20
Effect: Blessing of the Giant (Must wear, Clicky, 15.0)
STR: +2 STA: +8 DEX: +5 AGI: +5 WIS: +5 CHA: +13 INT: +18 HP: +20 MANA: +95
SVMAGIC: +12
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.6 Class: ALL
Race: ALL

So Ornate is giving: 12 SVMagic, 13 CHA, 18 INT and 95 Mana (Basically if your int is above 200 its 203 mana) and 20 HP
Shadow silk is giving: 5 SV all, 12 CHA, 12 INT, 100 Mana (If int is above 200 itrs about 172 mana) and 60 HP
At a base level Ornate is better, but when you add in two augment slots you are looking at (Assuming they put in 30 mana augs or large int augs) 233 mana on ornate vs 232 on Shadow Silk, one point of mana is lost.. more HP is gained on Shadowsilk... Maybe add a second augment slot to make this hard piece of work to get better than shadow silk?
 
As much as I totally agree with the fact that Ornate armor is exceedingly underpowered (i.e. I've seen a piece actually lose all CHA from the basic version; almost all the pieces have generally laughable stats except for resists), I think you are actually citing two of the best pieces of Ornate armor available.

The two items you mention are close to tradeskilled or other items gotten at a similar tier. However, almost all of the other items are obsolete given the fact that most people attain shadowsilk, imphide, or other good gear before they ever hit the entry-raid scene. This doesn't necessarily mean that these items are overpowered, but it does reflect upon the fact that Ornate armor is outdated and "mudflation" has rendered the set near useless.
 
I think that just because one peice improved does not mean another should. It is just not a sound argument.

TS items should be desired and so should quested one. I think the peices are pretty well balanced. It isnt like there is a huge amount of Deepmetal out there. It is hard to get and expensive. Fairly equal on work to attain and fairly equal on stats.

Just my opinion.
 
I would like to see ornate gear upgraded. I have more than a few pieces of ornate banked because several non-raid & tmap armor I wear betters the ornate.
 
Danku said:
I think that just because one peice improved does not mean another should.   It is just not a sound argument.

TS items should be desired and so should quested one.  I think the peices are pretty well balanced.  It isnt like there is a huge amount of Deepmetal out there.  It is hard to get and expensive.  Fairly equal on work to attain and fairly equal on stats.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

hard to get? No, not really. You pretty much just need to buy it. Which takes several hours of farming. As opposed to say more like 100 hours of farming for the ornate. There's not a huge amount out there. Yet. However before where only 1 person on the server could make it. Now there are 2. In the next couple of months. I would expect at least 2 more people to join those ranks, considering theres at least 4 people I know of working up their smithing that aren't what I'd consider very far away.
 
Danku said:
I think that just because one peice improved does not mean another should.   It is just not a sound argument.

TS items should be desired and so should quested one.  I think the peices are pretty well balanced.  It isnt like there is a huge amount of Deepmetal out there.  It is hard to get and expensive.  Fairly equal on work to attain and fairly equal on stats.

Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

TS items alone do not make Ornate undesirable. There is plenty of armor out there that you can get without highend raiding that is superior to Ornate, saves the resists (in general since this is the seemingly only strongpoint in Ornate).
 
SoDPlayer said:
I would like to see ornate gear upgraded.  I have more than a few pieces of ornate banked because several non-raid & tmap armor I wear betters the ornate.
Click to expand...

alot of quest armor pieces are crap (Bracers, Hats, boots) even as Combine. I wear alot of non quest armor pieces because of that (even before IP loot). Stuff from FR, HHK blows alot of the combine armor away.

The clicky on the chest pieces make them better than deepmetal and silk TR stuff
 
Just a few more comparisons....
Cloth Side of things
Here is a sum up of what is below, for those who just want the quick and dirty, for those who don't keep scrolling!
Wrist Bands: Raw Mana (factoring in INT assuming it is above 200) Ornate: 86 vs Shadow Silk: 96, CHA = 6 on both
Gloves: Raw Mana (W/ INT) Ornate: 25 vs Shadow Silk: 93, +10 CHA on both
Masks: Raw Mana (W/ INT) Ornate: 55 Vs Shadow Silk: 109 +10 CHA on Ornate, +9 on Shadow Silk. and I also compared it to Combine Silk
Combine: 123 Vs Shadow Silk: 109 lets say they both get fully augged with +30 mana augs, we are looking at Combine: 153 VS 169, with combine having 1 more point of CHA, 40 more HP, 2 points more of MR and 10 of other reisists, thats just not right.

Wrist Bands...
Code: 
Shadow Silk Wristband
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: WRIST
AC: 7
STA: +5 STR: +5 CHA: +6 WIS: +6 INT: +6 HP: +30 MANA: +60
SVMAGIC: +8
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 5
Slot 2, Type 5
Vs
Code: 
Ornate Stormwoven Silk Wristband
MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: WRIST
AC: 7
STA: +5 CHA: +6 INT: +6 HP: +15 MANA: +50
SVMAGIC/DISEASE/POISON: +10
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 5
Same INT/CHA Ornate is a bit better off on saves, but Shadow Silk has 10 more mana, 15 more HP and TWO aug slots making it the better choice hands down unless you need resists (And I think most int casters would trade 2 MR and 10 DR/PR for an extra aug slot and 10 more base mana)

Gloves...
Code: 
Shadow Silk Gloves
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: HANDS
AC: 9
DEX: +7 CHA +10 WIS: +8 INT: +8 AGI: +7 HP: +30 MANA: +45
SV All +4
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 5
Slot 2, Type 5
Vs
Code: 
Ornate Stormwoven Silk Gloves
MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: HANDS
AC: 9
STA: +5 STR: +5 DEX: +5 CHA: +10 HP: +10 MANA: +25
SVCOLD/FIRE: +10
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 5
This one is an obvious choice 10 CHA on each, but only 25 raw mana on Ornate, where as Shadow Silk has 45 AND 8 Int so a total of 93 Mana and +4 SV all, and more HP. The difference in the gloves is especially bad.

Face items...
Code: 
Shadow Silk Viel
MAGIC ITEM
Slot: FACE
AC: 7
STA: +15 CHA: +9 WIS: +9 INT: +9 HP: +35 MANA: +55
SVMAGIC: +8
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 5
Slot 2, Type 5
vs
Code: 
Ornate Stormwoven Silk Viel
MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: FACE
AC: 7
STA: +7 STR: +7 INT: +5 CHA: +9 HP: +15 MANA: +25
SVDISEASE/POISON: +8
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 5
Shadow Silk has more Raw HP/Mana/INT and 1 less point of CHA on this one. The mana totals are Ornate: 55 Vs Shadow Silk: 109. Like usual resists differ, but none the less 50+ more mana and another aug slot makes this piece hardly worth getting... In fact Combine Silk even comes close to it...
Code: 
Combine Silk Viel
MAGIC ITEM NO DROP
Slot: FACE
AC: 9
STA: +8 STR: +8 AGI: +4 DEX: +4 INT: +8 CHA: +10 HP: +75 MANA: +75
SVDISEASE/POISON/MAGIC: +10
Required Level of 45.
WT: 0.1 Size: SMALL
Class: ALL
Race: ALL
Slot 1, Type 5
Hmmm 123 Mana in total, 1 more point of CHA, 40 more HP 20 more raw mana. So it would be Combine: 123 Vs Shadow Silk: 109 lets say they both get fully augged with +30 mana augs, we are looking at Combine: 153 VS 169

I really don't think that this is very fair at all, the faction armors take months to get the faction for, and then to get the gems for, where as you can farm for a week and get a piece of shadow silk that if fully augged is comprable to Combine gear. the quested armors really need some looking into, If I have time later I will post some more Deepmetal Vs Ornate Plate.
 
Lets look at some more Plate stuff...
Summary:
Bracers:
Tank Point of View: Deepmetal: 3 more HP, 45 more HP, and 1 more MR point than ornate, ornate has +4 SV ALL, which is nice, but is it worth the 3 AC and 45 HP?
Cleric Point of View: Deepmetal is giving 84 mana (Factoring in wis, assuming its above 200) Ornate just giving the raw 45 (Not to mention Shadow silk would just blow this mana out of the water)

Cloaks:
Tank PoV: Ornate 1 AC, 15 MR. 20 less HP, 4 more STA. Looks better than Deepmetal tbh
Cleric PoV: Ornate: 20 MR, No Mana, no Wis, nothing. Deepmetal: 55 Mana and 5 MR, (Also it is worth mentioning that for a cleric Shadow Silk would stomp either of these mana wise.)

Real quick blurb here, is it just me or does it look like ornate plate has no love for clerics at all? I see like 4 pieces with + WIS on it and the highest amount of raw mana on any piece is 50 (The Leggings) The other 6 pices that have mana on them all have mana that is in the 25-45 range not to mention the 4 pieces that dont even have WIS/Mana on them! Maybe the mana and/or Wis on ornate could get bumped up a little to show some clerics love?
Or maybe the items themselves should't be changed but the difficulty needed to get them should be looked at. By the time most guilds do NDHK sucessfully the ornate is not an upgrade, if the trash mobs where toned down a little then guilds who would still get upgrades from ornate could do it and get it easier than they could currently, but I don't know.

Detailed Analysis:
Bracers:
Deepmetal:
Code: 
Deepmetal Platemail Bracer
[MAGIC ITEM]
Slot: WRIST
AC: 18
STR: +2 STA: +2 AGI: +5 DEX: +5 WIS: +4 INT: +4 CHA: +2 HP: +60 MANA: +60
MR: +5
Weight: 6.0 Size: Large
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: All
Slot 1 Type 2
Slot 2 Type 2

Ornate:
Code: 
Ornate Stormforged Platemail Bracer
[MAGIC ITEM] [NO DROP]
Slot: WRIST
AC: 15
STR: +3 AGI: +5 DEX: +5 INT: +5 HP: +15 MANA: +45
SVALL: +4
Weight: ?.0 Size: Large
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: All
Slot 1 Type 2
for tanks: Deepmetal has 3 more AC, 45 more HP, and +5 SVmagic, where as all ornate has going for it is the diverse resists
For Clerics: Factoring in wis, you are looking at deepmetal giving 84 mana and ornate giving 45 (Not to mention that shadow silk would just blow all ornate plate out of the water by mana alone)
Cloaks:
Deepmetal:
Code: 
Deepmetal Platemail Cloak
[MAGIC ITEM]
Slot: BACK
AC: 20
STR: +8 AGI: +2 DEX: +9 HP: +70 MANA: +55
MR: +5
Weight: 12.0 Size: Large
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: All
Slot 1 Type 2
Slot 2 Type 2

Ornate:
Code: 
Ornate Stormforged Platemail Cloak
[MAGIC ITEM] [NO DROP]
Slot: BACK
AC: 21
STR: +4 STA: +4 INT: +7 CHA: +7 HP: +50
SVMAGIC: +20
Weight: ?.0 Size: Large
Class: WAR CLR PAL SHD BRD
Race: All
Slot 1 Type 2
Tank PoV: Ornate 1 AC on Deepmetal and 15 more MR. 20 less HP but 4 more STA So maybe it evens out into Ornates favor on this one
Cleric PoV: All ornate has going for it is the 20 MR, No Mana, no Wis, nothing, Deepmetal on the other hand has 55 Mana on it and 5 MR, Also it is worth mentioning that for a cleric Shadow Silk would stomp either of these mana wise.
 
Temellin said:
Real quick blurb here, is it just me or does it look like ornate plate has no love for clerics at all?
Click to expand...

If I recall correctly, the dragon faction armor is better for casters, while the giant faction armor has better stats for melee. Both balanced against each other though.

One thing that occured to me today, is that this situation heavily undermines the whole "pick a faction" argument, since the quest armors were one of the major reasons to pick one faction over another.
 
This is still a problem, people are still doing months of work and having their ornate Giant or Dragon quest armor trivialized by tradeskill armor :( here are a few very specific suggestions to make ornate a bit better

In general add an extra aug slot, this would at least give it a shot at being on the same level as the Tradeskilled items. Maybe a few general stat uppages? more int/mana for the silk, more AC,HP, or Resists and Mana/Int/Wis for the plate? Leather I haven't looked at too much, but I assume that it could use some more AC/Agi/Monkly and Besatlordish Stats and maybe some Mana/Wis for the druids, and Chain could probably use some Mana for the shamans, and AC/HP/Something to make it more appealing than deepmetal

If I had the stats on Chain/Leather armor I would make comparisons but I do not, so I will just generalize this.
I don't want to see all the time and effort into something like this go to waste, sure someone has to get the tradeskill up high, but after that one person does its just a matter of farming enough money and paying them to make the item for you; that doesn't take nearly as long as it takes to get the torn enchanted pieces, get faction to make them into normal Storm/Draconic armor, get ally with the side you are on, and get the ornate gems to turn in. Not to mention if you are able to do zones like NDHK then you can probably do First Ruins stuff to get crazy good upgrades to ornate for not that much time/effort.

In closing, this armor is currently just something needed to get to combine gear and thats about it, the clickies are nice sure, but the stats are not nearly as good as the tradeskilled items, and if given the choice between a full set of ornate and a full set of Deepmetal/Shadow Silk/Imp Hide, I am sure many would take that over the ornate just for the stats and 2 aug slots alone.
 
Another option would be to make nDHK mobs a little bit easier. Anything in that arena would make the armor a little bit easier to get, putting the armor more in line with the difficulty to obtain.
 
Allielyn said:
Another option would be to make nDHK mobs a little bit easier.  Anything in that arena would make the armor a little bit easier to get, putting the armor more in line with the difficulty to obtain.
Click to expand...

I think this makes the most sense (well reference the DHK elites post for more specifics), mostly because nerfing tradeskilled items or upgrading ornate just doesn't sit right with me.
 
Allielyn said:
Another option would be to make nDHK mobs a little bit easier.  Anything in that arena would make the armor a little bit easier to get, putting the armor more in line with the difficulty to obtain.
Click to expand...

Isn't the DHK mobs being a bit tougher that way due to 80-90% of the 60+ are aligned Giant? Could be wrong of course.
 
The recent revamp to both dragons and giants (just after the 2.0 change) was supposed to put them more in line with each other. Not only in terms of difficulty, but items as well. My original thought, addressed in another thread, was that perhaps some of the dragons were juiced up a lil bit too much, ultimately, as Temellin pointed out, making Ornate seem less valuable in comparison to tailored items.
 
If tradeskilled armor can have 2 aug slots, is it too much to ask that ornate and onward quest armor gets 2 aug slots? seriously, I think that would make ornate a bit more valuable and less trivialized, but then again it might boil down to the DHK elites being too hard (I dont know how hard StormsEye mobs are, but I do know that the ornate armors have the same stats, just different clickies.) This needs to be looked at :( I dont want to see tailored/smithed items nerfed, but I would love to see the quest armor get an upgrade some how, be it more stats, two aug slots, mobs that drop the gems are easier to kill, I dont know. All I do know is that right now its pretty unbalanced. I say it is unbalanced because all it takes is 1 person to get the tradeskill high enough then is just a matter of farming the cash to buy the items from them, where as with the quest armor you have to get ally with a faction (Takes for freaking ever trust me on this one!) then get the armor pieces (This doesnt take as long as faction, but it still takes a while) and then after all of that if you want to get the ornate version you need to get a raid forced geared up and able to take NDHK or Storms Eye, when you could have just farmed some cash, decked a tank in deepmetal and gotten upgrades from other raid zones. As I have stated before basically all ornate is used for right now is the clickies and just something you have to farm to get combine.
 
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