NPC for Parsing

Z

Zengo

Dalayan Adventurer
Hi,
Is there a NPC/mob in the game that can be used to get consistent results for parsing weapons? Maybe a mob that has a few million hitpoints that is a consistent level 55 and doesn't fight back to get accurate results.
I guess I'm also asking what other folks do to get a accurate result on what set of gear to use on a regular basis to get the best results from my DPS.
If there isn't such a NPC, may I suggest one be put up somewhere. I was thinking the Arena would be a great place for this. No one seems to go there and it makes sense from a Lore point of view to use the Arena to maximize ones fighting skills.
Either way, I'm curious of what you folks think.
 
There have been a lot of requests for this over the years but we've never gotten an official thing added. There have also been a few mobs that people have found that make good parsing targets but they get changed/removed once they become public knowledge.

I agree that this server could really benefit from a few target dummies in towns or Arena or something. Just off the top of my head I can think of quite a few mechanics or items that are not very well understood by the playerbase and trying to get useful numbers from raids or groups is not very efficient because of how many variables exist in those situations.
 
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Dinadass said:
There have been a lot of requests for this over the years but we've never gotten an official thing added. There have also been a few mobs that people have found that make good parsing targets but they get changed/removed once they become public knowledge.

I agree that this server could really benefit from a few target dummies in towns or Arena or something. Just off the top of my head I can think of quite a few mechanics or items that are not very well understood by the playerbase and trying to get useful numbers from raids or groups is not very efficient because of how many variables exist in those situations.
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More than figuring out what gear you should use, this would help crowd source DPS numbers during item/weapon/functionality/etc. changes.
 
I could see the existence of a parse mob increasing rather than decreasing misconceptions. A lot of variables go into melee combat, and fighting a punching bag with a static level and static stats is unlikely to shed much light onto many of those. Results are not likely to be applicable to much.

As for apples-to-apples comparisons of different weapons and such, even that is not very simple. Between randomized damage rolls, randomized mitigation, and randomized avoidance and accuracy, it's very hard to find "fair" averages in any reasonable amount of time. There was a period early on when I became a dev when I tried to parse a very small number of things, running 3 identical test chars against 3 identical targets for around an hour at a time -- and getting final results that were off by 10% or more (I don't have any records anymore, but that sounds about right). You'd need to put in a huge amount of parsing time to produce a body of data that might start to look reliable for one combination of weapons/gear, just to get some info that doesn't really translate into the game as it actually plays out. And I don't think anyone can seriously claim that very many players are gonna put that much care into it all; most will go for 10 minutes, see a low parse, and scream about secret stealth halfling nerfs (without realizing that they are wearing a gate neck, and that they lost R:Focus while they weren't looking).

I, and I think at least one other dev, had thought about making some kind of semi-automated parse punching bags before, maybe with some options to alter their stats, but the thought always kind of fizzles out. Most stat values for important things like AC and resists are hidden from players, so it'd be unlikely that anyone would be able to calibrate it to be just like their mob of choice. And even if they could, with how all over the place damage goes (as noted above), any minor variation in DPS due to changed stats is going to be basically impossible to suss out without literal days if not weeks of parsing -- and people are far more likely to declare the parse mob or the mechanic to be broken when the difference does not reveal itself immediately.

Should the parse mob just have no AC, resists, or avoidance, and guarantee 100% accuracy on top, to minimize randomness as much as possible to give the best possible apples-to-apples comparison with DPS numbers that you'll never see in the actual game? Or should it be true to the average undebuffed exp trash mob, giving values that aren't widely applicable (especially when it counts) and don't really elucidate any of the little details? Should it aux tank you if you attack from the front? Should it give casters infinite mana? Should it have a tank mitigation parsing mode where it attacks you but can't kill you?

It may just be more headache than convenience. I'm not against it in principle though, I am totally for more accurate information about game mechanics and stuff! I'm not the one to decide though.
 
Your post makes a good argument for having several different parse mobs, or one with stats determined by the player via dialogue options or something, not that we shouldn't have any parse mobs at all. There are some people that like to know how large of an impact certain buffs/focii/items/tomes/etc actually have, or how various weapon setups compare to each other, and right now they generally use parses from groups and raids which is not very helpful due to the many more uncontrollable variables in those situations. Parses from groups and raids are definitely useful when it comes to seeing how certain classes might stack up against one another in real fights, but are much more limited when it comes to personal DPS.

Mob AC is the only stat that I believe is entirely hidden from the players. Bard JI gives resists and bodytype and level, and other things like whether you're fighting it from the front or back are obvious. And even if you don't know the precise stats of a target, the simple fact that you are testing against the same target still tells you generally how two weapons would compare in real fights.

I have never had a 10% difference in DPS while running 10 minute parses of the same setup, let alone an hour. The last round of substantial parses I did was comparing the bugged Gatherbot arm to high tier onehanders, and with several parses of each it was very very clear how they stacked up. Just for one example, I did four parses with Horok in my mainhand and GB1 arm in offhand with identical buffs/gear/combo usage/etc. and the DPS numbers for all four were within 5% using just 10 minute parses. All of my other setups had even smaller differences. A ten minute parse for me results in >2000 weapon hits and misses, and almost 150 kicks. Strings of procs and crits can definitely throw the final number off in that situation but having an overall DPS difference of more than 10% is extremely unlikely. In a parse of 30 or 60 minutes the odds of such a large different in DPS is practically zero. Additionally, parsing programs like gamparse show you your average hits, crit rates, etc. so if you do come across a discrepancy of more than a few percent, it's generally easy to understand why.

Every other MMO I've played in the past 10 years has had some sort of controlled environment for players to test their DPS or healing output or other things. They almost all have plenty of RNG involved, just like SoD, but they were still extremely useful and popular among min/max players who actually like knowing the ins and outs of their character. I could see not having them if there was some technical limitation or something but that doesn't really seem to be an issue based on what you've said and what I know of the mechanics of this game, and "some people might conduct flawed parses and complain" is not a good enough reason in my opinion.
 
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Zaela, you've been around long enough to know most of the people on this server have crippling autism. I mean, there are people that trade-skill (and enjoy it)... The playerbase would have no problem running multi-hour parses, and rotating buff bots to keep everything fresh.

Dev's DEMAND parses from us, and then use our "10 minute parses" to balance content currently... so whats the harm in giving the gen pop a proper tool to provide data for our nerfing overlords?
 
Dinadass said:
Your post makes a good argument for having several different parse mobs, or one with stats determined by the player via dialogue options or something, not that we shouldn't have any parse mobs at all.
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I agree with player determined stats mob. Maybe add the mob to the house zone to further promote the use of houses.

Hail mob.
Hello Daffie! How would you like me to look? Please use this format:
Reply with format.
Please confirm that you would like me to look like this until you zone:
Reply with Yes/No

Quick example of some of the variables: Race/form, AC = low/med/hi/XL, resists = low/med/hi/XL, etc.
 
Cyzaine used to host an event called "hater's gonna hate" in the arena which was useful for testing total aggro generation and could also parse dps within a minute frame if you wanted. was a fun thing to do imo (i miss you cyzaine!) perhaps something similar could be brought back?
 
Daffie said:
I agree with player determined stats mob. Maybe add the mob to the house zone to further promote the use of houses.

Hail mob.
Hello Daffie! How would you like me to look? Please use this format:
Reply with format.
Please confirm that you would like me to look like this until you zone:
Reply with Yes/No

Quick example of some of the variables: Race/form, AC = low/med/hi/XL, resists = low/med/hi/XL, etc.
Click to expand...

I love this idea.
I think everyone is bringing up some good points.

But, my idea on it is pretty simple. A mob with a ton of hitpoints that's the same level everytime. I've been playing a beastlord and they use a ton of different weapons. I hear sometimes Hand to Hand is better. Sometimes 2 handers are better. Either way I'd like to test this myself with some long parses. If everything else remains the same, than I'll add say any extra 5% dps for attacking from behind.
It would be nice to input the stats and variables for the NPC as you would like, but I don't think this is necessary. Just a general DPS report from a mob that won't fight me back.
 
I think some parse mobs would be awesome. Maybe one for typical exp type mob maybe lvl 55-60 range. And one boss type mob lvl 68.
 
How about put 1 ncp in the house zone that has 1 million hps and respawn of 5 mins. Make it a dwarf that taunts you when you dps like " cant you hit harder than that ? HA " give it 1 to all resists and not massive amounths of ac.
 
IMO if the playerbase wants actual applicable parses they need to set up as controlled an environment as they can in-game themselves to parse. Want trash parses, take a buddy or two and go parse the same mob over and over to compare gear-sets. The raw truth of it is that from mob to mob knowing what's most effective changes. Fighting something with damage reduction for instance? Put on weapons with high damage to reduce the number of hits mitigated to 0. Elemental weaknesses/strengths, bane damage, weapon ratio, proc types and rates...it's a daunting list of things to consider.

Just because Yiv-slayer parses higher against a 0 AC mob with no resists doesn't mean it will outparse Caretaker's Will on a different mob, etc etc etc.

tl;dr: Just play the game, sheesh
 
Dimmi said:
IMO if the playerbase wants actual applicable parses they need to set up as controlled an environment as they can in-game themselves to parse. Want trash parses, take a buddy or two and go parse the same mob over and over to compare gear-sets. The raw truth of it is that from mob to mob knowing what's most effective changes. Fighting something with damage reduction for instance? Put on weapons with high damage to reduce the number of hits mitigated to 0. Elemental weaknesses/strengths, bane damage, weapon ratio, proc types and rates...it's a daunting list of things to consider.

Just because Yiv-slayer parses higher against a 0 AC mob with no resists doesn't mean it will outparse Caretaker's Will on a different mob, etc etc etc.

tl;dr: Just play the game, sheesh
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This is why I use a level 65 mob with average resists to parse against; obviously things like blazewind gloves or other weapons that rely heavily on elemental damage will perform a bit differently on targets with very high or very low resists, but it lets you get a general sense of how things stack up.

Zaela made it sound like it wouldn't be that hard for the devs to add a parse NPC that actually lets the player choose what its resists/ac/level/etc are so I really see no reason not to have it.
 
I understand why this might be an issue, but I am mostly looking just to optimize my own character and compare various weapons to each other. (this would be a great thing to put in donator housing I am just saying.)
 
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