Necro spells have unusually high casting costs, because they are balanced to work with the necros ability to regen mana at an increased rate using lich. Lich is balanced to work with the meditate skill. With the changes to med, theres no point in using it most of the time. Why? look at arch lich 65hp for 35 mana a tick. In combat your gaining 35 mana yes, which would seem like ALOT to other classes, but your also losing 65 hp per tick. it's not that great when your going to have to tap it back (inefficent, and justed used all the mana you gained), or take a heavy HP loss to cast 1 more spell (considering at this point most dots are 500+ mana, its gonna take alot of hp). you might as well just throw your dots on a mob and sit there, when wizards mages etc can now just burn stuff down both solo and group and med up faster than any lich line spells has ever been able to (casting the same dot 2-3 times in a row like a nuke isnt gonna help any thats for sure). if the med changes are to stay I hope that necros are somehow rebalanced, it not only puts us behind other casters but screws with the class balance itself
Necros and the med changes
- Thread starter thizz
- Start date
thizz said:
I seem to recall necros having nukes too, yeah lifetap is a nuke too.........so hey you can burn too omg! And guess what, with lich you can med it back even fast than said wizards and mages omg! Your dd dmg might not be as good as a mages but with your dots stacked on who knows!
P.S. GL to a mage doing a pure burn in group situations since you know they dont have agro reduction spell, hey for that matter wizards have to stop nuking every couple nukes and cast concusion.....wait then wizards are doing the same thing they did before the change.....
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Why is this worthy of rolleyes? As near as I can see, necros got a smaller percentage of their mana from meditate than other classes, therefore it's reasonable to believe that necros would be troubled a boost to meditate.
If lich isn't cheap / fast cast, making it cheap and fast cast could help--either way, dont be afraid to switch in and out of lich. And for what it's worth, I haven't heard the necros I know complain.
If lich isn't cheap / fast cast, making it cheap and fast cast could help--either way, dont be afraid to switch in and out of lich. And for what it's worth, I haven't heard the necros I know complain.
Thinkmeats said:
Relic: Master of Death...Mana Cost: 1...Cast speed: 2 seconds...No recast timer
Arch Lich...Mana Cost: 1...Cast speed:2 seconds...No recast timer
Lich...Mana cost:5...Cast speed: 3 seconds...Recast: 6 seconds
it is cheap and fast and its worthy of rolleyes because the argument given is not valid.
Zhak Morris
Dalayan Beginner
Xandion pretty much owned your entire face Thinkmeats, and it wasn't pretty.
And just to throw in my 2 copper, this thread does deserve a :roll:
And just to throw in my 2 copper, this thread does deserve a :roll:
tekaskeeperoftheages
Dalayan Adventurer
necro haters 
The only thing i feel the changes made it harder for necros would be in the same area that it made it harder for druids, soloing using DoTs, like fear kiting with DoTs, or the druid root rot with DoTs, those techiniques are pretty much a waste now, and on the occasion that im able to get a group, i don't even use the DoTs because the mobs die too fast for the DoT to be effective enough vs the mana cost.
Thinkmeats
War Is Good For Business
Zhak Morris said:
Thinkmeats said:
?
Assuming that the rate of out-of-combat mana regen is high enough that buffs you have out of combat are relatively irrelivent...
The value of mana regen is:
Ticks of time between "med to full" breaks * mana regen
in mana pool.
In an XP group, before these changes, that might have been 30 minutes.
Now, it might be 2 to 5 minutes.
The removal of meditate in combat removes the 20-odd mana/tick that meditate generated, which also impacts the marginal value of mana regen.
So, before:
30 mana/tick in buffs/gear.
20 mana/tick in-combat med regen.
3000 mana pool
30 minutes between AFK bathroom breaks.
-----
18,000 mana to spend.
Every +10 mana/tick boosts your mana in that 30 minutes by 3000, or +17% more mana to spend.
After:
30 mana/tick in buffs/gear
0 mana/tick in-combat med regen.
3000 mana pool.
3 minutes between "turbo-med-to-full" sessions.
----
3900 mana to spend
Every +10 mana/tick boosts your mana in that 3 minutes by 300, or 7.7% more mana to spend. Just under 1/2 the marginal advantage it was before the change.
The marginal value of +mana regen abilities varies with the length of time between "med to full" used at each end. The choice of assumptions made above was relatively arbitrary, and I'm certain better numbers could be picked.
However, using the assumptions above, the relative mana-regen advantage of a necro in an XP group would have to double to maintain the same relative XP group mana use advantage they had before the change.
On the other hand, the marginal value of +mana regen is higher on long boss fights than it was before, because the length of a boss fight is determined by the encounter and the DPS of the players, not by the choice of the players involved.
The marginal value of +mana pool has much higher in XP groups and somewhat higher in fixed-length raid encounters because of this change.
The value of mana regen is:
Ticks of time between "med to full" breaks * mana regen
in mana pool.
In an XP group, before these changes, that might have been 30 minutes.
Now, it might be 2 to 5 minutes.
The removal of meditate in combat removes the 20-odd mana/tick that meditate generated, which also impacts the marginal value of mana regen.
So, before:
30 mana/tick in buffs/gear.
20 mana/tick in-combat med regen.
3000 mana pool
30 minutes between AFK bathroom breaks.
-----
18,000 mana to spend.
Every +10 mana/tick boosts your mana in that 30 minutes by 3000, or +17% more mana to spend.
After:
30 mana/tick in buffs/gear
0 mana/tick in-combat med regen.
3000 mana pool.
3 minutes between "turbo-med-to-full" sessions.
----
3900 mana to spend
Every +10 mana/tick boosts your mana in that 3 minutes by 300, or 7.7% more mana to spend. Just under 1/2 the marginal advantage it was before the change.
The marginal value of +mana regen abilities varies with the length of time between "med to full" used at each end. The choice of assumptions made above was relatively arbitrary, and I'm certain better numbers could be picked.
However, using the assumptions above, the relative mana-regen advantage of a necro in an XP group would have to double to maintain the same relative XP group mana use advantage they had before the change.
On the other hand, the marginal value of +mana regen is higher on long boss fights than it was before, because the length of a boss fight is determined by the encounter and the DPS of the players, not by the choice of the players involved.
The marginal value of +mana pool has much higher in XP groups and somewhat higher in fixed-length raid encounters because of this change.
Here's what I think...
Why are people arguing against a change to necros? How does it cause you a disadvantage? It's not like we're telling you to remove the med changes... We're trying to get our class rebalanced since the change does screw us over. Do you not want the game to be balanced?
Oh yeah just to say in the live test thread 2 I only posted possible changes to show Duma what responses we get when we offer changes to classes.... Turns out it worked pretty well
Why are people arguing against a change to necros? How does it cause you a disadvantage? It's not like we're telling you to remove the med changes... We're trying to get our class rebalanced since the change does screw us over. Do you not want the game to be balanced?
Oh yeah just to say in the live test thread 2 I only posted possible changes to show Duma what responses we get when we offer changes to classes.... Turns out it worked pretty well
I could be wrong, but I think a lot of the reason that Necros are angry about this is that their main source of damage (DoTs) takes a long time to reach full effectiveness. Meaning, you cast the spell once, and then a minute later the spell has finally reached its full potential. The question now for a necromancer is "what should I do in between the time when I have cast all my DoTs and the time when they fade?" Not being able to meditate while existing DoTs are going severely limits a necro's total potential damage, because necromancer's simply don't have many worthwile spells to cast while waiting for their DoTs to run out. Time that was previously well-spent meditating is now just spent staring at the mob, waiting to be able to recast your spells.
These changes, on the other hand, seem perfectly suited for wizards, who never really had time to meditate during solo fights anyway because nukes require constantly standing up. As a result, even though necros still get help from lich, the fact that the solo game has now changed to "do as much damage as fast as you can and then med to full" (rather than one of efficiency) puts them at a distinct disadvantage.
These changes, on the other hand, seem perfectly suited for wizards, who never really had time to meditate during solo fights anyway because nukes require constantly standing up. As a result, even though necros still get help from lich, the fact that the solo game has now changed to "do as much damage as fast as you can and then med to full" (rather than one of efficiency) puts them at a distinct disadvantage.
Manluas
Dalayan Elder
Ok, for all that don't know: Incombat Meditate works again. If you haven't read what Wiz announced it is your fault but you should stop complaining until you checked the boards properly anyways.
Cast a spell, wait 30 seconds and "Hey, I'm medding."
All working fine, inculding Grouping, thanks a lot Wiz
Cast a spell, wait 30 seconds and "Hey, I'm medding."
All working fine, inculding Grouping, thanks a lot Wiz
Even with incombat meditate existing, the ability to cheaply med-to-full outside of combat makes mana pool more valueable and mana regen less valueable.
I also I forgot about the difference between "stand and nuke repeatedly" vs "DoT and let the DoT do it's work".
Before, a necro could cast a few DoTs, then go off and meditate.
In effect, the cost of a spell, in mana lost because you cast it, was roughly:
spell_cost + (casting time)*(meditate per second)
and now it is just spell_cost (because the odds are you aren't giving up meditate to cast a spell).
Spell casting strategies that require lots of casting (like chain-casting nukes) have gotten relatively cheaper compared to spell casting strategies that require very little casting (like casting a few dots, then sitting back and letting the creature cook).
Interesting.
I also I forgot about the difference between "stand and nuke repeatedly" vs "DoT and let the DoT do it's work".
Before, a necro could cast a few DoTs, then go off and meditate.
In effect, the cost of a spell, in mana lost because you cast it, was roughly:
spell_cost + (casting time)*(meditate per second)
and now it is just spell_cost (because the odds are you aren't giving up meditate to cast a spell).
Spell casting strategies that require lots of casting (like chain-casting nukes) have gotten relatively cheaper compared to spell casting strategies that require very little casting (like casting a few dots, then sitting back and letting the creature cook).
Interesting.
Yakk said:
Ya, that is why i said that druids also take a hard hit from that. The Druid DoT lines were made pretty useless now, except for maybe on a Raid against targets with so much HP it takes awhile to kill.
Group wise, the only efficent thing to do now are use the semi nukes they have, which don't compare to the nukes of other caster classes, then again alot of the time Druids are healers in their groups.
With soloing, most the druids i knew used the strategy "Root Rot" in order to have multiple mobs rooted and slowly dying to the DoTs while they were sitting and medding. This of course is a complete waste of time now.
Overall i feel the changes were good, improved the game in many ways, just feel it kinda made druid and necro DoTs pointless