Necro/Mage rebalancing going in the next patch (hopefully 11/6)

So I haven't played a mage in... a few years, but as a pet class I'm gonna chime in here.

You don't like the way monster summons were reworked due to 1 mechanic (rampage) cramping your style to mass pull bone dragons in DN while boxing a T13 tank. That is, like JAFF said, an insanely niche complaint. Swarm pets AFAIK or can see, were never meant to be aux tanking any mechanics which is why their HP is such garbage in first place, but simply meant as a quick dps boost temporarily on a single target with "a mages flair" for thematic reasons.

I would argue 1) against farming DN dragons if you're boxing Moraelin anyways because that is a massive waste of that toon's duo capability, and 2) realize that your pet could be eating that rampage mechanic (you did get boosts to your healing capabilities pretty significantly from what I've heard). I don't want to come across as crass here (new leaf and all), but I think you might be having some "cognitive tunneling" with respect to your current playstyle vs how the rework improves the class dramatically. I do mean to come across as crass though when I say you need to take Moraelin somewhere tougher than DN dragons.
 
So I haven't played a mage in... a few years, but as a pet class I'm gonna chime in here.

You don't like the way monster summons were reworked due to 1 mechanic (rampage) cramping your style to mass pull bone dragons in DN while boxing a T13 tank. That is, like JAFF said, an insanely niche complaint. Swarm pets AFAIK or can see, were never meant to be aux tanking any mechanics which is why their HP is such garbage in first place, but simply meant as a quick dps boost temporarily on a single target with "a mages flair" for thematic reasons.

I would argue 1) against farming DN dragons if you're boxing Moraelin anyways because that is a massive waste of that toon's duo capability, and 2) realize that your pet could be eating that rampage mechanic (you did get boosts to your healing capabilities pretty significantly from what I've heard). I don't want to come across as crass here (new leaf and all), but I think you might be having some "cognitive tunneling" with respect to your current playstyle vs how the rework improves the class dramatically. I do mean to come across as crass though when I say you need to take Moraelin somewhere tougher than DN dragons.
You make a lot of assumptions, he actually uses Moraelin more often in OG for opus drops.
 
I usually am boxing a super sk. It basically hurts the exping aspect of mage. Monster Summon is super useful for eating rampage on certain mobs, it becomes more helpful when I'm doing bounties.

I use to solo a lot in DN. And, if you had multiple bone dragons, it would be MS IV on the first one, MS III on the second, and so forth, and if you ran out of those, host of elementals.

He clearly stated multiple bone dragons, and their mechanic, and "boxing a super SK" whatever that is. The only assumption I made was to the original intent of the use of swarm pets which admittedly I cannot prove as I was not talking with the person who created that line of spells when they created it, nor can I ask them today. Everything else is me trying as politely as possible to tell him he should try to learn how to maximize the new improvements to enhance his playstyle. The crass way of saying that would be "lol u suck, get gud" which is not my intent. However, I believe (not an assumption, been playing this game for so many years I'd love to see anyone argue this) that most people who play a particular class do not know how to actually play said class effectively. This rework is a good opportunity for mages to maybe dig into their creative think caps and rework their toolset to more effectively use the character. Jeanval and other mages have been given a pretty solid boost by all accounts to the class. This should be a fun time to test the waters and see what new strategies can be worked. Once the full capabilites have been tested and talked through could maybe more mage changes come around.

That's effectively how BST changes came about. Tons of bsts at all levels, tons of mobs, various scenarios, dev-made parsers, name it. We threw a bunch of stuff into the mix, applied some changes, then tried to see what exploits popped up from those changes. During the class rework, many things that were originally in got nixxed. But I doubt any class changes that affect them throughout the entire game are going to be influenced at all by 1 players preference for engaging 1 type of mob in 1 zone by bulk pulling them.

Also, thank you for clarifying that Moraelin is used more in OG for opus drops than DN dragons. Really emphasized your contribution.
 
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I usually am boxing a super sk. It basically hurts the exping aspect of mage. Monster Summon is super useful for eating rampage on certain mobs, it becomes more helpful when I'm doing bounties.

I use to solo a lot in DN. And, if you had multiple bone dragons, it would be MS IV on the first one, MS III on the second, and so forth, and if you ran out of those, host of elementals.

He clearly stated multiple bone dragons, and their mechanic, and "boxing a super SK" whatever that is. The only assumption I made was to the original intent of the use of swarm pets which admittedly I cannot prove as I was not talking with the person who created that line of spells when they created it, nor can I ask them today. Everything else is me trying as politely as possible to tell him he should try to learn how to maximize the new improvements to enhance his playstyle. The crass way of saying that would be "lol u suck, get gud" which is not my intent. However, I believe (not an assumption, been playing this game for so many years I'd love to see anyone argue this) that most people who play a particular class do not know how to actually play said class effectively. This rework is a good opportunity for mages to maybe dig into their creative think caps and rework their toolset to more effectively use the character. Jeanval and other mages have been given a pretty solid boost by all accounts to the class. This should be a fun time to test the waters and see what new strategies can be worked.

Also, thank you for clarifying that Moraelin is used more in OG for opus drops than DN dragons. Really emphasized your contribution.
You mean you didn't notice he was expressing two different aspects/scenario's of how it affected him and mages? Your initial response makes sense then.
 
Monster Summon (MS) = good for eating rampage. DN = Dragon Necropolis. This zone has 'actors' that "game developers" have labeled as "bone dragons". You can identify them throughout the zone looking like a 4-legged dragon without skin, muscle, or organs; presumably held together with necromancy. However this is an assumption and you may apply your own reasoning for why these 'actors' discarded their meaty belongings.

In this zone (DN), it was stated that if multiples of these 'actors' were 'had', which i am going to apply an assumption means "pulled" or "engaged with intention to kill by 1 or more player-driven avatars within the same zone as said 'actors'", that one would MS them. Again, I will apply an assumption that MS in this case is referencing the "Monster Summon" spell line from a previous post. I believe, again an assumption, that a spell line is a series of lines of code that when executed within the game world will cause certain actions to be carried out, as is the point of code (probably also an assumption). Now, prior to the mage changes, which I will assume meant that the "game developers" altered lines of code, one could MS different ones all at once by throwing roman numerals at them. I have not spoken with the game developer in question however; it does remain a distinct possibility that in order to change the mages he threw tonkotsu ramen on their heads to make them smell delicious. I have no idea how this would affect their playstyle, other that increasing their aggro range, as the smell of ramen could potentially cause other 'actors' to feel hungry. Assuming that one can program hunger into a non-sentient, non-vessel creature.

Did I make too many assumptions or am I on point? I really dug my heels in deep to tighten that rope drawing the parallels between using MS to eat rampage on certain mobs, and using MS in DN when pulling multiple bone dragons. Hopefully I explained my methodology well enough. I am not a huge fan of elementary algebra, know nothing of machine learning, and am a terrible coder, so cannot break down the assumptions, and parallels I drew any simpler. For I am just a dumb man looking to encourage our young mages to try new things out and see what new feats they can accomplish with what Rymy had done. But for you Gargate, who needed the help, I too am here to make sure we're all on the same page. I'm here for you buddy.

(Sorry Rymy, I do not mean to de-rail this convo. From what I've seen and from mages I've talked to, the changes seem like a very good step in the right direction. I'm sure after getting all the feedback and waiting a bit for things to flesh themselves out, you will have enough data to make a determination if additional changes in the future are warranted or if the currently implemented ones met your intent. I personally as a pet class am happy to see the mage heal spells get a much needed boost. When I had a mage, that was my biggest gripe. Probably the most painful, seeing your pet dying and knowing you could do nothing about it).
 
Monster Summon (MS) = good for eating rampage. DN = Dragon Necropolis. This zone has 'actors' that "game developers" have labeled as "bone dragons". You can identify them throughout the zone looking like a 4-legged dragon without skin, muscle, or organs; presumably held together with necromancy. However this is an assumption and you may apply your own reasoning for why these 'actors' discarded their meaty belongings.

In this zone (DN), it was stated that if multiples of these 'actors' were 'had', which i am going to apply an assumption means "pulled" or "engaged with intention to kill by 1 or more player-driven avatars within the same zone as said 'actors'", that one would MS them. Again, I will apply an assumption that MS in this case is referencing the "Monster Summon" spell line from a previous post. I believe, again an assumption, that a spell line is a series of lines of code that when executed within the game world will cause certain actions to be carried out, as is the point of code (probably also an assumption). Now, prior to the mage changes, which I will assume meant that the "game developers" altered lines of code, one could MS different ones all at once by throwing roman numerals at them. I have not spoken with the game developer in question however; it does remain a distinct possibility that in order to change the mages he threw tonkotsu ramen on their heads to make them smell delicious. I have no idea how this would affect their playstyle, other that increasing their aggro range, as the smell of ramen could potentially cause other 'actors' to feel hungry. Assuming that one can program hunger into a non-sentient, non-vessel creature.

Did I make too many assumptions or am I on point? I really dug my heels in deep to tighten that rope drawing the parallels between using MS to eat rampage on certain mobs, and using MS in DN when pulling multiple bone dragons. Hopefully I explained my methodology well enough. I am not a huge fan of elementary algebra, know nothing of machine learning, and am a terrible coder, so cannot break down the assumptions, and parallels I drew any simpler. For I am just a dumb man looking to encourage our young mages to try new things out and see what new feats they can accomplish with what Rymy had done. But for you Gargate, who needed the help, I too am here to make sure we're all on the same page. I'm here for you buddy.

(Sorry Rymy, I do not mean to de-rail this convo. From what I've seen and from mages I've talked to, the changes seem like a very good step in the right direction. I'm sure after getting all the feedback and waiting a bit for things to flesh themselves out, you will have enough data to make a determination if additional changes in the future are warranted or if the currently implemented ones met your intent. I personally as a pet class am happy to see the mage heal spells get a much needed boost. When I had a mage, that was my biggest gripe. Probably the most painful, seeing your pet dying and knowing you could do nothing about it).
LOL I guess JV could have been more clear and it could be that I'm guilded with JV and had a little insight into what he meant but it read pretty clearly to me.

It's just that the entire second half of your first post was pointless due to a misunderstanding and instead of just going "oh, my bad" your acting like this. You also make the assumption he hasn't tried out new things which is false and nothing he said could indicated that he hasn't, that was just speculation on your part and drawing a false conclusion.
 
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So very few mobs use the rampage mechanic that it almost seems like a moot point to use that argument. If you're doing DN dragons, you can pull 100% of them solo and it is actually very difficult to accidentally pull more than one unless you do it on purpose.

If you're using a mage to solo bounties I have bad news for you.

Edit: I'm not against lowering cool downs or removing a shared cool down, I'm just saying it's not the best of arguments.
 
Ok, haven't check this in a while. So, you misread or I mistyped some things.

The key phrase here is "I use to solo a lot in DN" So, that means I'm solo'ing in DN with a mage, I use to a lot. So, I don't think it's my typo. I got like 1/3 of a supreme there.

This change doesn't really effect me, because I box a t13 sk. I'm always in OG, and I always offer leech. This is explained when I say, "It will hurt up and coming mages more than me. I usually am boxing a super sk." Once again, I don't think it's my typing, it's a lack of reading comprehension. I mean, you even went out of your way to quote the second line, sentence to assume I'm using Moraelin in DN. And using your misquote as straw man to critique. Which, honestly is so badly done, it must be to troll.

So, you know, reading comprehension is fundamental.

But yeah, you may not like my argument or the reasoning. But, it's not really necessary to make awful straw men arguments.

My argument basically has some questions and some not answers.

1) Was the monster summoning necessary?
a) I'm not sure, because the reasoning is to reduce variably of dps on raid targets. (Please note, the changes were in regard to raid content, and my critique was the unintended consequence to the other half of the content. This is a very key reading comprehension detail to have, this will prevent from making awful straw man responses further)
i) If you're doing a single target, you shouldn't be using r1, because he may randomly toss out a rain. I don't know why he does, from my understanding the mob should be tossing ice comets if he knows there's one mob, and rains if he knows there's more than one mob. But on a single sage, I've seen him many time toss a rain. So, single target where you cannot rain, risky to r1. You could toss a MSIV, but no r1.
ii) One of the things specifically mentioned was the stacking of pets on long fights. I assume they mean mobs like Taesh, becuase he has no AOEs or armor, and even the little rat from what I'm told does significant dps. On Geomancer in BS, I get 2 casts. Zegdyn, he poofs so not really, pet doesn't last long. Armorer, pet may rain, so it depends if you hate the person being charmed or not. Each mob is different. But, most fights are <10 minutes.

2) This hurts up and coming mages, i.e., not me.
a) I use to be a low level mage. I spent a lot of time solo'ing in DN. I probably farmed 1/3rd of my supreme in that zone. Some of the mobs have a rampage, and the pet was good as a damage sink when you're rocking a level 63 pet. (Once again, not a problem for me, because Javert is r2, now. And, when I usually box Moraelin when I'm farming opus. I just think it's a dick move, to take out a pretty important functionality from lowbies. But, I already have mine.)

And, if you check back I even gave some ideas to solve this problem.

3) Solutions:
a) Keep pet poofing, but remove the shared cool down.
i) Pro: pets still poof so you cannot stack over time on Raid mobs, thus normalizing expected mage dps.
ii) Pro: The utility for new mages is kept, because non raid content fights that a mage would be soloing should be <2 minutes anways
iii) Inconsequential: Mages are not the best class for Taesh, by default now? I've never done that fight, so I don't know if I care.

b) Undo the changes to monster summoning
i) Con: the mage summon pets will be doing variable dps depending on the mob, a goal that the dev said they wanted to fix.
ii) Pro: The utility for mages maintained

c) Make the cool down to when the mage poofs (This is independent of whether cool down is shared or not)
i) Pro: You can have a constant summoned pet with the offset of a constant mana cost
2) Pro: still does normalized damage, because the pet is poofing
3) Pro/con: some utility remains, because it's a 2 min cool down (if cool down is shared) to have another rampage off tank. That's not too bad, you could med in between. It would be similar to waiting for a stance to come back up before pulling a hard mob
4) Pro: Normalizes dps (a gold stated by Dev), without stacking, provided the mage still has mana to cast it.




Also, minor thing. @Duke What change to rains?
 
one of the biggest problem with necros and mages both is still long cast times and relatively high ramp up time.

also, while just chatting w/ juff the other night i basically came to the conclusion that mage rains hitting 2 targets is more often a downside than it is a positive thing. I think this is something that warrants looking at encounter design or the way rains function in raid content. Perhaps a stance that lets rains do a bit more single target damage, but only hit one target, and another stance that allows rains to function as they do now.
 
one of the biggest problem with necros and mages both is still long cast times and relatively high ramp up time.

also, while just chatting w/ juff the other night i basically came to the conclusion that mage rains hitting 2 targets is more often a downside than it is a positive thing. I think this is something that warrants looking at encounter design or the way rains function in raid content. Perhaps a stance that lets rains do a bit more single target damage, but only hit one target, and another stance that allows rains to function as they do now.

Rain cast times are similar to wizard archaic. Mage ramp up time is already relatively low (~12 seconds or so). Really the solution to the problem is just buffing elemental barrage/bladewind more because even after the buffs non rain dps is still too low.
 
Rain cast times are similar to wizard archaic. Mage ramp up time is already relatively low (~12 seconds or so). Really the solution to the problem is just buffing elemental barrage/bladewind more because even after the buffs non rain dps is still too low.
Yes but you don't have a strong alternative to rains for when you need a faster casting spell, meaning you're punished by movement etc even harder. Also, 12 second ramp up time is pretty massive given the lifespan for a lot of mobs/adds that need to die quickly, considering the fact that most classes in SoD have basically 0 ramp up time. Spending 12 seconds to ramp up to a point where you're just on par or worse than other classes who have been doing their full damage the whole time is just insane.

Look at birds on tarhyl. Theres 30 seconds between each bird. Even ignoring travel time, you're spending 40% of the birds lifespan ramping up to full damage. The stars die very quickly as well, and a lot of them aren't able to be rained. Theres a bunch more examples of this type of mechanic.

The strengths of necros and mages still aren't that noticeable compared to a lot of other classes, but their downsides are still quite apparent. Currently neither class really has anything that makes you go "I really wish we had a mage/necro right now" in a raid setting, and I think thats a problem.
 
Yes but you don't have a strong alternative to rains for when you need a faster casting spell, meaning you're punished by movement etc even harder. Also, 12 second ramp up time is pretty massive given the lifespan for a lot of mobs/adds that need to die quickly, considering the fact that most classes in SoD have basically 0 ramp up time. Spending 12 seconds to ramp up to a point where you're just on par or worse than other classes who have been doing their full damage the whole time is just insane.

Look at birds on tarhyl. Theres 30 seconds between each bird. Even ignoring travel time, you're spending 40% of the birds lifespan ramping up to full damage. The stars die very quickly as well, and a lot of them aren't able to be rained. Theres a bunch more examples of this type of mechanic.

The strengths of necros and mages still aren't that noticeable compared to a lot of other classes, but their downsides are still quite apparent. Currently neither class really has anything that makes you go "I really wish we had a mage/necro right now" in a raid setting, and I think thats a problem.

New elemental barrage is close to where it needs to be actually. Assuming a reasonable goal is non rain dps is 90% of rain dps (including pets etc). Non rain spell has to be ~86-87%% of normal rain dps, and its currently ~81%. thats a buff of like 25 base points per barrage give or take.

Half the dps classes have some amount of ramp up time (enchanter/bard/bst/necromancer/magician) only 4 classes don't (rangers/monks/rogues/wizards)

Birds aren't really a great example tbh, you'd probably just cast two rains, then 1-2 barrages and it wouldn't be particularly noticeable. you'd get your full "ramp" of dps and do similar dps to everyone else over the mobs life. Its not like putting a different class in that spot is going to make the mobs die any faster than the 20-25 seconds they live anyway.

I agree mages and necromancers don't make me go "I wish I had a necro/mage right now" of but I don't think most dps classes do. It's not exactly like people are clamoring for more rogues/rangers/monks in raids. The only classes I ever find myself saying "wow I wish we had this class" are enchanters/wizards/beastlords and occasionally a second bard.
 
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