Mining Thoughts

[lynnettell]

So having massive amounts of time that you can spend semi-afk clicking a button over and over is a pre-requisite to being a successful smith / miner and you don't see a problem with that?

No, it would be good to make mining into something more interesting, but exploding AE's, etc., do not seem like a very good idea.

The sheer fact that you had to MAKE NOT ONE BUT TWO ALTS to do your mining for you is proof in of itself that mining is a bit wonky. It should be viable for miners to mine many types of ore, not just make a few alts and swear them to the right diety so that after they sneak hide down into the midddle of FR they can extract ore AT ZERO RISK.

I never said I made two alts. I said I *have* two alts, one was given to me with an already 250 mining skill. I said when I started smithing, I mined everything on Kero.... I made ONE alt when I realized I could not mine DM at all. I wish there was a different place to mine DM. When I was working on mithril/dalium, I exp'd in Heartland Caves WHILE MINING! I got exp AND ore. If anything is broken about mining, it's the places where ore veins are. There are plenty of zones that ore veins could be added where you have to worry about aggro like I did in Heartland during mithril/dalium days.

This is just a wild assumption on your part that people will flock to be miners, most people on the server don't give two shits about doing a tradeskill themselves. Hence. the reason you can make a profit smithing. They won't suddenly just get all giddy and change the entire way they play because mining got made less of a timesink. If you are implying that prices on Deepmetal armor would fall to 1k then you are just being silly.

There are already people mining just to mine & sell ore. They won't give two shits about being a smith, but make it into a bigger money maker, and there will be more.

You can make lots of money smithing and buying your ore. I know, I have done it, but I also have 2-250 skill miners as well. Mining is not part of blacksmithing. It was implemented as an independent skill that should be useful to people who don't even smith for the selling of ore.

With the exception of deepmetal, it IS useful to people who don't smith to sell ore.

What I would propose is adding in Gas Pockets that will explode for AoE dmg and disturbed earth elementals both that are level appropraite for the zone and the ore that it contains.

Okay... first, make deepmetal minable somewhere that you CAN solo at 60-65, and don't need to sneak/hide/pledge to get it. I'll get to that in a second.

Second... how do you propose you decide what is "level appropriate" for ore? I can mine anything on a 65 druid. But I maxxed mining ON MY DRUID by level 45 or so. Where can you mine warpmetal? Sundered mountains... which is a level 20ish zone. So, do you decide that you need to be level 50 to mine warpmetal, and have level 50ish AE's/elementals? Or do you figure heck, should be able to do that at level 40, or split the difference between the ore & the zone level, and make it level 35... Or let's talk iron ore. Going to put a level 15 AE on it, or none, since you can mine it in cities (Surefall, Halas, Sadri, etc.. ).

Want to make mining less of an AFK thing, something that I would actually do ON MY OWN CHARACTER again? Fix the ore veins. Make it so you can actually kill stuff that will give exp while mining (ala Heartlands & mithril/dalium). There is mithri/dalium in Fae Woods, prospector's satchel says extremely rich.. but the only spot I found was in geonid caves. And it isn't "rich" there. Make it actually "rich", move ghost or warpmetal there, it's a 50's exp spot with mobs! Put Deepmetal in the middle of Red Sun Peaks, or Felyn's Laboratory, somewhere that mobs are light blue to blue to a 65.

You seem to be focused on the deepmetal thing & the rogue sneak/hide/pledge. EVERY ORE can be mined with 0 risk right now (unless you do like I did, and exp in the goblin caves while mining mithril/dalium, although it IS possible to do it with 0 fighting, or when I was in my late 40's/early 50's and exp'd on giants in OSM while mining obsidian, again, a choice thing over going where the green mobs where and 0 risk). I'd gladly mine DM on Kero if I could A. Actually get to the damn ore solo, which is impossible. And B. Be able to get exp while I'm mining.

The placement of the ore veins is what makes mining a semi-AFK thing. Nobart killed Kero multiple times in Heartland caves while I was mining there with over pulls... making ore in exp spots > some damn exploding gas.

On a final note...

Wait, you've undercut all the other smiths on the server to sell your DM at "an all time server low" (essentially starting a price war), and you're worried about prices dropping?

I dropped DM prices because the ORE prices were cut in half. The armor was still sitting at the exact same prices as it was when DM was 2k a stack... Don't tell me that you would think 400pp is a fair price on ExQ Type 5 runes, if the prices on ice kobold fur suddenly dropped to 25pp each rather than 100pp each. Guess I should have been greedy & kept prices the same, even though component cost dropped!

 

[Tempus]

Basically nothing you propse conflicts with my ideas at all, and you even agree that it would be much better if you didn't have to have a rogue alt pledged to the appropraite diety just to mine deepmetal. You can move veins around to exp areas, and you basically get the saem result as veins that randomly spawn mobs or have aoe's. I am more than willing to support any idea that would allow for greater risk and greater reward for time spent mining. Skilling up smithing, making stabilzers, making temperings, making molten cores are all already pretty time consuming when it comes to smithing, but in the status quo we basically have to go out on top of all that and have the additional time sink of mining. Which is fine, there should be some effort that has to eb put into obtaining ore. I am just saying that I would prefer a lot less time and a lot more risk. I would imagine if it was made to where you couldn't farm ore in FR with your rog alt then the rate at which the ore is found could be increased from 1.6% as well.


Determining what is level appropriate based both on the ORE and the ZONE isn't that complex at all. Seriously, there are lots of people out there right now who mine ore for profit? I mean I check listsold everyday, EVERYDAY and i find a stack of warp or ghost metal maybe once every 2 weeks. if you are not a blacksmith who is skilling up there is zero reason for you to ever get any ore other than ghostmetal to sell to aug makers. As you can ilterally stand in one spot in kaladim and mine for looooooooooooooong time without even moving.

 

[shanoma]

You could leave mining the way it is, but add in something new that would further content AND encourage new people to mine.

For instance, set a random event to trigger while xping that allows you to mine it. You kill mobs, and a message pops up and says "The NPC you killed was guarding an ore vein!" An event spawn pops up, you mine it, and get ore from it at a higher rate than you would were you mining in the traditional fashion. The type of ore mined could be dictated by the average level of the zone.

This way, you're not doing a massive overhaul of the current mining system, it's something new and fun, something that could be found in ANY zone, and a lot of people would carry picks around with them to snag these spawns.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

Basically nothing you propse conflicts with my ideas at all, and you even agree that it would be much better if you didn't have to have a rogue alt pledged to the appropraite diety just to mine deepmetal. You can move veins around to exp areas, and you basically get the saem result as veins that randomly spawn mobs or have aoe's.

To be fair, mobs would have to spawn quite often to get the same result so you don't have to stand there clicking for a while before you got something to do. And when did they make it so aoe's give you xp? Yes, it gives you the same risk, but the reward is quite different.

I'm all for changing it, but what I got from your original post was an occasional spawn to make it more dangerous and less afkish, rather than something that would provide DECENT xp while doing it.

 

[Tempus]

To be fair, mobs would have to spawn quite often to get the same result so you don't have to stand there clicking for a while before you got something to do. And when did they make it so aoe's give you xp? Yes, it gives you the same risk, but the reward is quite different.

I'm all for changing it, but what I got from your original post was an occasional spawn to make it more dangerous and less afkish, rather than something that would provide DECENT xp while doing it.

The point wasn't to make it a new way to exp with exceptional tradeskill component returns. The point was to make mining the ore you need faster and riskier. The same result I was speaking of is the increased risk for increased return. Obviously they would have to be tweaked differently if they are in exp areas vs. just risk in the veins themselves.

I mean come on, some of this I would expect to be common sense. If the veins were put into exp areas then you wouldn't be able to jack the ore rate up very much because you are getting the benefit of advancing your character's exp at the same time as you are mining. If you make the veins themselves riskier and not in "exp areas" then you can make the return on the time spent mining greater as the reward for the increased risk. Both make mining riskier and both increase the net reward of the time spent mining. Her scenarios just add in exp gain, and mine focus on ore gain. They both have the same basic concepts, increase the risk and the reward.

 

[lynnettell]

I'm all for changing it, but what I got from your original post was an occasional spawn to make it more dangerous and less afkish, rather than something that would provide DECENT xp while doing it.

More dangerous, less AFKish with 0 exp gain is not really sensible to me. If I want aggro to sit & kill green mobs all day, I can do that mining obsidian. Yes, ore rates will help, but I can just summon Booboo & stand & mine, cast the occasional heal. I'm not talking that I should sit for four hours, get 10 stacks of ore & five AA's, just *something*... I even said light blue to a 65 mobs would be fine. Or dark blue that are tough to solo, but a duo can do... "Miner looking for partner to go mine some DM in <insert zone>!" Make the ore rates up, in only certain areas, and mob repops such that you can't just stand in one spot & mine all day & exp your arse off. AKA, mobs repop every X mins, to interrupt your mining...

I'm sure it would be a nightmare to code something that made random mobs to pop at character level of miner. My hate on the random mobs/AE is that at level 65, random AEs/mobs are going to be nothing more than an annoyance, keep buffs up, pet up, whatever, and you'll live through it.... unless you have a way to code them to match the level of the miner with the level of AE or mob (did I mention I prefer the mob idea?). To do otherwise would make it so no one could smith anything higher than mithril/dalium before 65.

you even agree that it would be much better if you didn't have to have a rogue alt pledged to the appropraite diety just to mine deepmetal.

I was actually mining ghost/warp & selling for money when I found out that I couldn't mine DM. I honestly think that is the one thing about mining that pisses me off the most. It's an exp zone that groups die in on a regular basis, but the only *true* place that I know of (unless you count Cmal, and that's even worse) to get DM ore. So it's not that I *wanted* to create an alt to mine on, it was a matter of necessity. The way it stands now, either have a rogue alt to mine, or be a rogue smith, or resign yourself to either buying ore *all* the time, or never making DM (which right now, I'd advise!)

Find a compromise that makes mining not such a monotonous, boring thing, and I'm for it. I AFK mine now when I'm doing housework (hey, I repainted the bathroom Tuesday on my *last* day off, and managed to all day mine one stack of DM), or something else around the house, out of necessity & need, not desire.

Skilling up smithing, making stabilzers, making temperings, making molten cores are all already pretty time consuming when it comes to smithing, but in the status quo we basically have to go out on top of all that and have the additional time sink of mining.

Now, this makes me sit & say hrm... because you say that mining was to be a stand alone tradeskill... for people to make money from mining. Yet you are saying out of necessity, you have to max or damn near both pottery & brewing. Tailors have the same issue with ointments, to a more MAJOR degree in that violet ointments never trivial, so they pretty much have to max brewing. Yet no comments on brewing being needed, or ointments looked at on high fail rate, as monotonous AND expensive AND time consuming it is? Yeah, I know, conversation for another thread...

 

[Tempus]

More dangerous, less AFKish with 0 exp gain is not really sensible to me. If I want aggro to sit & kill green mobs all day, I can do that mining obsidian. Yes, ore rates will help, but I can just summon Booboo & stand & mine, cast the occasional heal. I'm not talking that I should sit for four hours, get 10 stacks of ore & five AA's, just *something*... I even said light blue to a 65 mobs would be fine. Or dark blue that are tough to solo, but a duo can do... "Miner looking for partner to go mine some DM in <insert zone>!" Make the ore rates up, in only certain areas, and mob repops such that you can't just stand in one spot & mine all day & exp your arse off. AKA, mobs repop every X mins, to interrupt your mining...

I'm sure it would be a nightmare to code something that made random mobs to pop at character level of miner. My hate on the random mobs/AE is that at level 65, random AEs/mobs are going to be nothing more than an annoyance, keep buffs up, pet up, whatever, and you'll live through it.... unless you have a way to code them to match the level of the miner with the level of AE or mob (did I mention I prefer the mob idea?). To do otherwise would make it so no one could smith anything higher than mithril/dalium before 65.

I was actually mining ghost/warp & selling for money when I found out that I couldn't mine DM. I honestly think that is the one thing about mining that pisses me off the most. It's an exp zone that groups die in on a regular basis, but the only *true* place that I know of (unless you count Cmal, and that's even worse) to get DM ore. So it's not that I *wanted* to create an alt to mine on, it was a matter of necessity. The way it stands now, either have a rogue alt to mine, or be a rogue smith, or resign yourself to either buying ore *all* the time, or never making DM (which right now, I'd advise!)

Find a compromise that makes mining not such a monotonous, boring thing, and I'm for it. I AFK mine now when I'm doing housework (hey, I repainted the bathroom Tuesday on my *last* day off, and managed to all day mine one stack of DM), or something else around the house, out of necessity & need, not desire.
[/qoute]

The point I am trying to make is I do not want to see mining become an exping thing. There is already TONS of places to go and get exp if that is what you want. I want mining to be more rewarding for the sake of mining (I.E. ore generation). In order to make it be more productive, there would need to be some balancing offset or like you said before the market could become overrun with severely reduced value ore. However, the natural check against that is that if ore prices were to fall to low then people will stop mining for profit as it will be less profitable. I also want to see the mining of every ore available without the creation of specifically designed alts to do it.

Now, this makes me sit & say hrm... because you say that mining was to be a stand alone tradeskill... for people to make money from mining. Yet you are saying out of necessity, you have to max or damn near both pottery & brewing. Tailors have the same issue with ointments, to a more MAJOR degree in that violet ointments never trivial, so they pretty much have to max brewing. Yet no comments on brewing being needed, or ointments looked at on high fail rate, as monotonous AND expensive AND time consuming it is? yeah, I know, conversation for another thread...

Tailors don't have to mine for hides, furs or silks. Unless I am mistaken they all drop in exp areas and are often avaiable for puchase via /auc or listsold. When was the last time you saw any ore in auc or listsold? I check listsold every day for any kind of ore, and I rarely ever see any.

 

[Andaara]

As an upcoming Smith, I didn't realize Mining and Smithing were intended to be exclusive. They certainly can be, but I always felt that they were supposed to be symbiotic. At first it was great- as my Mining skill increased, my Smithing skill did also and I was able to smith with the ore I mined. Then the difference in increases began to be apparent until now I can't afford to buy the components to increase my Smithing skill to keep pace with my Mining ability. My Mining skill is upwards of 180 while my Smithing skill is around 70 and the only thing keeping the two apart is lack of PP to buy needed Smithing components. I do dual box but as yet have not dabbled in either Mining or Smithing with my other main. I realize that Mining is a viable way to make money, but it seems a little odd to me that someone trying to become a decent Smith would have to sell the ore they mined to pay for the components to advance their Smithing.

Its quite time-consuming as it is and that is a challenge in itself. There is already a "penalty" for trying to mine certain ores just due to their locations. While I greatly encourage some form of risk/reward system to make the usable ore drop more frequently, having to actually be totally attentive during what will still be a rather lengthy click-and-wait process is not particularly appealing, and would require delicate balancing so that you are still getting the overall benefit of Mining without being interrupted too often by whatever the risk factor is. I don't mind having something to fight while I'm Mining, so long as it doesn't become overbearing to the act of Mining itself.

The way I'm reading this thread assumes that the ore placement and vein life remains the same. I know the point of the risk/reward discussion is to make the existing ore placements drop more frequently at a greater risk. Would it be a code nightmare to add new locations that would satisfy the risk/reward for those that wanted to Mine and had the time to devote their total attention to it, while leaving at least some of the existing placements as they are for those who may want to try to get something else done while Mining? I loved BlackBurrow at lower level because I could spend forever in one spot before the vein dried up. Would it be a bad idea to suggest that were more common elsewhere?

Perhaps another possible way to approach an adjustment would be to leave Mining the way it is, while adjusting Smithing (in cap levels or component cost for example) to bring it more in line with Mining? This would probably unbalance any attempt to keep the two skills exclusive. Admittedly a bad idea if thats the Dev's intent.

Another thing I thought to throw out would be an ore drop rate contingent upon your Smithing skill, as in those with a higher Smithing skill get a better across-the-board drop rate on ore. That way you know that those getting the bonus aren't just sitting there farming ore to sell since they will have had to use it to up their Smithing skill (which we know is no small sacrifice in itself). Not really risk/reward, but it would insure that those who get the ore more frequently are devoted to putting in the time to do something with it, not just flood the market and bring prices down.

It could be my naivete because I haven't gotten that far into the skills themselves or the economic implications that surround them, but thats my thought for whatever its worth.

 

[lynnettell]

Edit: Took three tries... maybe sneak/hide was changed.. because I could get halfway before attacked.

 

[Zeligus]

Hmm... with the way the system is now, as a 250 miner, I have to spend several hours mining to get a few stacks of materials I need. Do I like this? Nope. So in that regard higher yields is good. However, having a chance to get blow up by a gas pocket or mauled by mobs and recieve exp debt to get these faster loads of ore? No thanks. So ulitmately, I would much rather see the system stay as it is rather than change it and risk death time and time again to get what I need to do my smithing. Its boring, frustrating, and time consuming. Safe? Well... Not for me. I've died numerous times while out mining. I am a lvl 40 Shaman. For me, the trip and the mining itself can be hazardous depending on where I am.