I'm really excited about the upcoming additions to SoD, but I wonder what else there

Status
Not open for further replies.

telove2

Dalayan Beginner
.... but I wonder what else there could potentially be in this game? Either soon or in the more distant future. I'm not sure what, if any of this is possible, but I have a few thoughts. For now I'm just focused on the Cleric class.

I played a game called Vanguard which was pretty much a big failure, but it managed to do a few things well. One of those things, was the healer classes. This is made by the people who made EQ, so they heard all the 'feedback' from people about how a Cleric was boring to play in EQ, because all you do is sit medding, with your eye on the little red bars, and then you get up and heal the little red bars and then sit back down again.

To make it more fun to play, they basically did away with the idea of a "pure healer" class, and instead made all the healers hybrids. This meant that you were the main healer for a group, but you were also contributing to DPS too (a bit), either with spells or melee.

Anyway, there are two main changes as I see it, that allowed the class to work like this. One is to improve the HoT spells slighty, which allowed the healer to land a HoT and then have a bit more opportunity to start doing some DPS - unless the situation is so dire that the HoT doesn't cut it. In which case you continue the usual Cleric style role. The second change, is to allow the Cleric to recover mana in a more interesting way, other than just sitting on their ass, willing the blue bar to move. The way they did it was to allow the healer to engage the mob, and their spells/abilities could generate mana.

The Druid and Shaman class in SoD is already a bit more interesting because they can main heal and yet they have other roles to play, or at least they CAN do other things if they want/need to. The Cleric however isn't really like that. If you are grouped with a Cleric and the Cleric is running around hitting stuff or nuking, then generally it's a sign that something is wrong with the Cleric or the group makeup, or you are just doing content that is too easy.

So something I wonder, is if perhaps there could be some new abilities or spells given to Clerics that allow them to do a bit more. For example, there are the 3 stances as usual, but perhaps there could be a fourth stance which makes them a bit more vulnerable to damage than the aggressive stance, but each melee hit draws back some mana. The way it could/should work, would be so that the amount of mana generated from fighting, would be about the same as if the Cleric just sat down and medded. So it's not really changing anything drastic in the way the game works, and it's not making the Cleric any more or less powerful, it's just allowing them to join in with the excitement of fighting a mob, in between heals - rather than just simply sitting down and watching everyone else do stuff. The only thing that would need some balance, would be the amount of damage they do, but that should be easy enough to sort out.

Perhaps some people like the Cleric because they get to sit back and watch and med in between heals, so perhaps this could be an optional thing. Personally though, unless I'm duoing, I like more interaction.

There are other ideas I suppose you could use to spice the Cleric class up a bit too. Perhaps there could be a fifth stance. A nuke stance. This could lower the cast time and mana consumption of the Cleric's nukes (or just increase their damage), but it increases the cast time and mana consumption of their heals to offset it. With a time limitation on switching styles, it could add more tactical and strategic thought to playing a Cleric.

I'm sure some people wouldn't like the idea of fiddling with the trusty old Cleric class, but I wonder if people might like it once they saw the other possibilities. I always liked the idea of balancing things when playing. Wizzys are constantly balancing doing as much damage as they can, with trying not to steal the aggro. Some of the tank classes are constantly trying to balance mitigation with aggro and dps, depending on how many mobs are beating on them etc.. And there's my favourite class, the Necro... A good Necro can literally be doing half a dozen things. They can be CC'ing with root or mez, dps'ing, or even off tanking with their pet in some situations. They can even act as a healer albeit in a limited way. The Cleric however, they don't really have anything to balance. They heal or they med. It can still be an enjoyable class, but I think it could be a lot more enjoyable.

Am I barking up the wrong tree hoping to see 21st century MMORPG classes in a 20th century game? No doubt WoW is the laughing stock around here, and I didn't even last long playing it. But I have to give them credit for some things like the Druid class I played. Forgetting about the later levels where you became very specialised, in the earlier stages you could literally be a tank, a caster, or a melee dps, all at the click of a button. On the PVP server I played on, I would one minute be invisibly stalking around the jungle like a rogue, then I'd find myself being beaten on by a pally or something and I would quickly switch to bear form to tank. And then if someone was running away, I could either chase them and backstab them in lion form again, or I could turn in to my caster form and nuke/root/snare them. I still find SoD to be a far better game in almost every other aspect, but I do miss some of the more modern approaches to MMORPG classes, and I wonder if there could be anything like that in SoD's future? Ever?
 
Last edited:
A lot of the reason it's a better game is because they have kept class integrity and well defined roles. I'm not trying to be rude but if a necro has all these things you're looking for why not play a necro instead? That's the short of it really. A cleric's role is to heal and that is what they excel at.
In groups with things like the summoned hammer a cleric can already get up and melee if they're so inclined but in many cases on raids they have to keep their distance just due to combat mechanics the NPC in question employs.
 
tbh, I actually really enjoy playing my cleric. If you have too many healers, things can get boring, but on a tough raid fight, or if you're soloing healing in a hard dungeon, it's really fun to keep your entire group up, especially if there is a biffed pull.
 
I used to raid as a tank. What a freaking borefest. Seriously, it was lame.

Changed to a druid, and I haven't looked back once. I'm loving every raid, it feels way more satisfying than sitting there spamming crit nukes that nuke for 20k and do like, 3% to the boss. How anti-climactic is that. But a big heal? Thats like, 30% of the tanks health minimum, and thats without it critting. I guess the big thing with healing to ME is that what your actually doing is much much more tangible, you can see the benefits much more readily.

Besides, it takes quite a bit of attention and timing to duck your heals at the right times and conserve mana as much as possible while keeping the tank up.
 
Am I barking up the wrong tree hoping to see 21st century MMORPG classes in a 20th century game? No doubt WoW is the laughing stock around here, and I didn't even last long playing it. But I have to give them credit for some things like the Druid class I played. Forgetting about the later levels where you became very specialised, in the earlier stages you could literally be a tank, a caster, or a melee dps, all at the click of a button. On the PVP server I played on, I would one minute be invisibly stalking around the jungle like a rogue, then I'd find myself being beaten on by a pally or something and I would quickly switch to bear form to tank. And then if someone was running away, I could either chase them and backstab them in lion form again, or I could turn in to my caster form and nuke/root/snare them. I still find SoD to be a far better game in almost every other aspect, but I do miss some of the more modern approaches to MMORPG classes, and I wonder if there could be anything like that in SoD's future? Ever?

Clerics are one of the most active classes, especially on raids.

Despite everything else, even if the staff wanted to introduce new or manipulate existing class roles (which is unlikely) it wouldn't be easy due to client limitations and restrictions. They are working with a fairly old client. Some new things will be released with Ikisith, but they will be focused on allowing each class to perform their role more efficiently, not change it partially or entirely.
 
Last edited:
A lot of the reason it's a better game is because they have kept class integrity and well defined roles.
I don't really agree with that. The reason why I'm playing SoD and not WoW or Vanguard or something, is not because those games had blurry class definition. It was due to the fact that in those games, you can't really go to a dungeon and start soloing and get some decent XP and find nice items. Everything is so sterile and structured. In WoW, everywhere is instanced, and it's either a "normal" walkover, or it's a "heroic" where you absolutely need a group. I also found that group content was quite 'ordered' and predictable, whereas in SoD, there is a bit more potential for chaos. A miss pull from an FD, or something, it just seems to get a bit more exciting than it ever did for me in WoW. There were several other things that bugged me about WoW and it was enough to make me quit and go back to SoD, but for me at least, "well defined class roles" was not one of those things.

Also, what I'm talking about isn't to try to blend classes together. I'm not talking about making Cleric's into half cleric half DPS, I'm just talking about small tweaks that can change the way a class feels to play. It would literally be the exact same class, only, instead of HoTting and then sitting down and waiting to cast the next or hot/heal, you could run in and start meleeing the mob. You can actually already do that... and top end Clerics have good enough gear that they can take a beating, and they can do really good DPS. With Yaulp6, a Cleric is very good DPS. The only thing stopping you from doing that now, is that you are potentially wasting mana every second you spend standing up, and that needn't be the case.

I'm not trying to be rude but if a necro has all these things you're looking for why not play a necro instead?
I do, I duo a Cleric and Necro. It's a LOT of fun when I duo, and the Necro solo is a lot of fun too. Cleric too in fact. On raids I'm so tense and it's so much hard work having to keep the MT up, an eye on the off tank, and my entire group up when there are AE's, that it never gets boring for a minute. But the issue crops up when I'm just grouped as just a cleric. It's not terrible, but it could be better.

I used to raid as a tank. What a freaking borefest. Seriously, it was lame.

Changed to a druid, and I haven't looked back once. I'm loving every raid, it feels way more satisfying than sitting there spamming crit nukes that nuke for 20k and do like, 3% to the boss. How anti-climactic is that. But a big heal? Thats like, 30% of the tanks health minimum, and thats without it critting. I guess the big thing with healing to ME is that what your actually doing is much much more tangible, you can see the benefits much more readily.

Besides, it takes quite a bit of attention and timing to duck your heals at the right times and conserve mana as much as possible while keeping the tank up.

Exactly. I won't go in to tank's though because I don't have much experience with them. Clerics though I can.

This was all discussed by Cleric players about a thousand times of course, once when EQ2 was in development, and then again when Vanguard was in development. There were traditionalists, and people who were scared of change, but mostly, people were screaming for healers to become more fun to play. I think most people who played Vanguard, would agree that they achieved this. (I'm not sure about EQ2 because I never got in to it)

I really like playing a Cleric in SoD, for a few reasons, but it's not perfect, and I don't see any reason why things couldn't improve over time, if only gradually. There may be technical limitations but I doubt it would restrict at least some fun tweaks.

It should be obvious, that nuking the crap out of a mob is a lot more satisfying than healing little red bars up and down. Same goes for playing a monk or something and doing roundhouses and flying kicks to a mob's face. Obviously making any drastic changes to a cleric could be a big mistake, but there could surely be some small subtle changes that could make the class more fun to play.

Clerics are one of the most active classes, especially on raids.

Despite everything else, even if the staff wanted to introduce new or manipulate existing class roles (which is unlikely) it wouldn't be easy due to client limitations and restrictions. They are working with a fairly old client. Some new things will be released with Ikisith, but they will be focused on allowing each class to perform their role more efficiently, not change it partially or entirely.

Yeah I heard the client is really hard to work with and is old and has limited scope for tweaking and stuff. The SoD devs keep surprising me though, like when they got rid of DC and replaced it with CE, etc.

Also, what I'm talking about shouldn't really be seen as manipulating class roles. That's just too much of a big deal. I'm just thinking about the class staying the same, but just slightly tweak how it's actually played. I've thought about it a lot. I cast a HoT on the MT in my group, and then I sit and watch. I wait for it to wear off, and then I stand up and cast it again. Rinse and repeat. So nothing would really change, other than instead of casting the HoT and then sitting down, you would cast the HoT and then go and melee the mob, and it would build up mana. The damage could even be very minimal, or even no damage at all... but just draw mana. But the result is that you can do something instead of sitting and watching.

Really, when I think about it, there are countless options. Another way of explaining it, is imagine having a spell called "Med", and instead of sitting and medding, you just cast your med spell. The result is exactly the same - identical. But one way you are sitting and doing nothing, the other way you are casting a spell. It's more interactive (slightly). So you can then just elaborate on that and instead of casting a spell called Med, you just make it a bit more interesting and go from there. In fact, that reminds me again of Vanguard where you literally had a spell that was for medding as a druid, but it said something like, "You thrust roots deep into the ground to draw energy from deep below", and you get some mana, but you are completely incapable of moving or casting for several seconds while that happens. So again, exactly the same as medding - no more or less overpowering, but it's interactive, and yet it could also be a tactical/strategic decision when to use it. Similar to Canni I guess.
 
Last edited:
The only thing stopping you from doing that now, is that you are potentially wasting mana every second you spend standing up, and that needn't be the case.

Um...No? Not sure if you're aware because they were changes from a loonggggg time back. However. Standing med without the trance is basically pretty much equivalent to sitting med without the trance. Now if you're not going to cast spells for 30 seconds, fine and dandy, but if you're not going to cast any spells for 30 seconds, should you even be in the group/raid?

Clerics are already an entertaining and hilariously powerful class when you get to the high end. You actually end up with the capability to tank, heal yourself and your group better than any other class, and dps a very reasonable amount. Speaking from a standpoint of a class that has to eke every single bit of power it's capable of to be good, if you're not taking advantage of what your class can actually do, that's your own problem, not one with the class.
 
Interesting post, as Aisling said tho at the higher end clerics can do some serious DPS. A large portion of the servers clerics are now as powerful or more powerful then the cleric I use to bot and so I would have no problem inviting them down to a difficult area and asking them to summon their ancient hammer and start beating on mobs.
Good post tho.
 
Yeah I heard the client is really hard to work with and is old and has limited scope for tweaking and stuff. The SoD devs keep surprising me though, like when they got rid of DC and replaced it with CE, etc.

Also, what I'm talking about shouldn't really be seen as manipulating class roles. That's just too much of a big deal. I'm just thinking about the class staying the same, but just slightly tweak how it's actually played. I've thought about it a lot. I cast a HoT on the MT in my group, and then I sit and watch. I wait for it to wear off, and then I stand up and cast it again. Rinse and repeat. So nothing would really change, other than instead of casting the HoT and then sitting down, you would cast the HoT and then go and melee the mob, and it would build up mana. The damage could even be very minimal, or even no damage at all... but just draw mana. But the result is that you can do something instead of sitting and watching.

Really, when I think about it, there are countless options. Another way of explaining it, is imagine having a spell called "Med", and instead of sitting and medding, you just cast your med spell. The result is exactly the same - identical. But one way you are sitting and doing nothing, the other way you are casting a spell. It's more interactive (slightly). So you can then just elaborate on that and instead of casting a spell called Med, you just make it a bit more interesting and go from there. In fact, that reminds me again of Vanguard where you literally had a spell that was for medding as a druid, but it said something like, "You thrust roots deep into the ground to draw energy from deep below", and you get some mana, but you are completely incapable of moving or casting for several seconds while that happens. So again, exactly the same as medding - no more or less overpowering, but it's interactive, and yet it could also be a tactical/strategic decision when to use it. Similar to Canni I guess.

Think harder.

Everything you're suggesting would require more than a "slight tweak," it would require a major rebalance. Casters already have a form of regening mana in combat -- flowing thought -- which would have to be nerfed if clerics were given an alternative. Nerfs and buffs always invite people to whine and complain about their class getting the rough end. Always. Basically, you cannot overpower one class and tell everyone else to shut the fuck up. It doesn't work that way.

I could go on, but I think you just need to play the game a bit more. Honestly, you're trying to gild the fact that you want a "contemporary" combat system implemented to appease your boredom without actually having played the game to its full potential. So I'll reiterate: there's quite a few reasons this won't happen, the most prominent being 1.) It's fucking stupid and 2.) The client restricts it.
 
Last edited:
I have no idea what level your cleric is or anything. But I'm sure you've come to the realization that this isnt just a clusterfuck of clerics going "CHEAL INC, XXXX YOUR NEXT" it requires attention, timing, and skill. If you have none of these, don't be a healer. Go play a rogue, pull aggro and die.

It's honestly NOT a boring job at all. It may be in YOUR exp groups, but I can tell you in most of mine, it is not.
 
Why do people need to flame like "it's stupid/retarded/faggotry", and not just stay as "it's not good & unbalancing" ?

Stances for priests / DPS casters were denied already... although I remain convinced that some small thing to use this yellow bar would really be awesome. What Avannir suggests is interesting, forces the cleric to go melee & take risk for him and his group / raid - reward in terms of mana sounds not right though.
 
Why do people need to flame like "it's stupid/retarded/faggotry", and not just stay as "it's not good & unbalancing" ?

Stances for priests / DPS casters were denied already... although I remain convinced that some small thing to use this yellow bar would really be awesome. What Avannir suggests is interesting, forces the cleric to go melee & take risk for him and his group / raid - reward in terms of mana sounds not right though.

I'm not going to sugarcoat the truth in Teletubby vernacular to coddle sensitive people. It's not offensive to say that a stupid idea is stupid. Clerics are one of the most balanced classes on SoD, and they already have the option of contributing more to their group than just heals. Either the OP fails to know this, or he's being a high maintenance guido.
 
Last edited:
Um...No? Not sure if you're aware because they were changes from a loonggggg time back. However. Standing med without the trance is basically pretty much equivalent to sitting med without the trance. Now if you're not going to cast spells for 30 seconds, fine and dandy, but if you're not going to cast any spells for 30 seconds, should you even be in the group/raid?
I dunno about that. I know about that change, but I always thought that sitting was still better than standing, and that once the fight ends, if you are already sat down, you are likely to get in to a meditative trance quicker. I don't know if that's exactly right or not, but either way, it's pretty clear that Clerics spend most of their time either casting heals or sitting down. If they could recover some mana by hitting stuff or casting something, it could do away with the sitting and >.< medding, unless they really wanted to do that.

Clerics are already an entertaining and hilariously powerful class when you get to the high end. You actually end up with the capability to tank, heal yourself and your group better than any other class, and dps a very reasonable amount. Speaking from a standpoint of a class that has to eke every single bit of power it's capable of to be good, if you're not taking advantage of what your class can actually do, that's your own problem, not one with the class.

I'm not talking about making them more powerful. Read what I've said. I've also already talked about how they can tank and melee too. It's just not sensible to be running around hitting mobs or casting nukes with a cleric though, and it has nothing to do with being the uberest or the best player. I've played with >8k mana clerics and they still don't melee unless they are solo, and they don't nuke unless they are grouping in an easy place or have 2 strong healers. There's also the issue of having a limited number of spell slots, and you absolutely have to have certain spells up if you are the group healer.

Think harder.

Everything you're suggesting would require more than a "slight tweak," it would require a major rebalance. Casters already have a form of regening mana in combat -- flowing thought -- which would have to be nerfed if clerics were given an alternative. Nerfs and buffs always invite people to whine and complain about their class getting the rough end. Always. Basically, you cannot overpower one class and tell everyone else to shut the fuck up. It doesn't work that way.
Nah. FT wouldn't have to change at all. Nothing would need nerfing, and the objective would not be to make the class more powerful and overpowered. If that was the result, then it went wrong and it's not like what I described. The whole point of what I described is that it does things slightly differently but achieves the exact same thing, not does things differently and achieves an overpowered class that throws everything out of balance.

I could go on, but I think you just need to play the game a bit more. Honestly, you're trying to gild the fact that you want a "contemporary" combat system implemented to appease your boredom without actually having played the game to its full potential. So I'll reiterate: there's quite a few reasons this won't happen, the most prominent being 1.) It's fucking stupid and 2.) The client restricts it.
Bullshit. I know my class and how it works perfectly fine. If you don't like the idea it's either your taste, or you don't understand the idea. If the client restricts it, I want to hear it from a dev, not one of you forum lurkers. And I know for a fact that the idea isn't "fucking stupid" because it's been tried and tested in other games, and it's great. Try it some time?

I have no idea what level your cleric is or anything. But I'm sure you've come to the realization that this isnt just a clusterfuck of clerics going "CHEAL INC, XXXX YOUR NEXT" it requires attention, timing, and skill. If you have none of these, don't be a healer. Go play a rogue, pull aggro and die.

It's honestly NOT a boring job at all. It may be in YOUR exp groups, but I can tell you in most of mine, it is not.

Why is that? Because your exp groups are constantly on the verge of wiping? My exp groups are not like that. Everyone is great at their class, and they all have extremely powerful characters. The attention requirement is no more demanding than simply watching the game and not being AFK. I've seen the EQ Cleric described as "Whack-a-mole" and it's hard to refute that really because that's pretty much what it is. If the red bar falls slowly, you click HoT. If the red bar is falling fast, you click an instant heal. If everyone's red bar is falling you do a group heal. It's fun! But it's not exactly amazing when you are single boxing, and all the sitting and medding doesn't really help that. Most other classes have something to do to break it up. Druids throw in some nukes, monks pull between fights, etc. The only reason Clerics don't have more to do, is because of a lack of imagination when the class was created in like 1997. Over a decade on, things have evolved but some of these classes haven't really changed. Sure there is Dawntide on the horizon and I bet that will be fantastic. But wouldn't you like to see more evolution in the game you have so much time already invested in?

I'm not going to sugarcoat the truth in Teletubby vernacular to coddle sensitive people. It's not offensive to say that a stupid idea is stupid. Clerics are one of the most balanced classes on SoD, and they already have the option of contributing more to their group than just heals. Either the OP fails to know this, or he's being a high maintenance guido.

You don't have to sugar coat anything, but you don't have to start getting insulting, ok? I'm happy to discuss this or I wouldn't have started a thread about it. If you can do that, great, if you just want to throw a tantrum then I'll just ignore you. As for what you said, I've already covered that earlier. As far as I'm concerned, I've grouped with some of the top Clerics on the server, and they stand and heal and then sit and med, so what I've said seems to be right. I would like to hear about this "contributing more than heals" because I just don't see it unless you're talking about raego. The only time I've ever seen a Cleric nuke, is when a group is taking it easy and the pressure is off the Cleric, and the same goes for melee.
 
Last edited:
Avannir, your argument boiled down is: Im bored with my cleric, please give me other shiny things to make me not bored. The compelling reason for this is I am bored. Make my cleric the same as before, but this time, with more DPS.

Rest of us: Clerics are fine as is.

Avannir: Repeats same mantra.

Rest of us: You don't get it, do you Avannir?

Avannir: Gets defensive and repeats same mantra.

Note: This is not a discussion, or a logical argument, this is a "wouldn't it be cool" thread.
 
Clerics fill the role they are designed for fine. If you want to "do more", be a shaman, or a druid. They "do more". They also dont heal as well. But no, we are not going to blur the line between cleric and anything else because you want clerics to "do more" because "it would be cool" and "other mmos do it". Sorry.

*edit* Play /gems
 
I disagree with your idea. Every class has its purpose, and a clerics purpose is not to melee dps. Leave that to the melee dps classes. With saying that, it's not like the cleric's hand was chopped off, they can melee pretty well and do decent dps with divine rage. Meleeing with a cleric comes with a cost, which is compromised mana regeneration, which makes complete sense and is balanced. (since a cleric's purpose is to heal and not deliver melee dps, which is going beyond their proficient capability)
 
One of the things I loved about EQ was the Role specifics of each class. Granted, some classes had their hybrid attributes but they were also limited in all they could do.
 
Clerics fill the role they are designed for fine. If you want to "do more", be a shaman, or a druid. They "do more". They also dont heal as well. But no, we are not going to blur the line between cleric and anything else because you want clerics to "do more" because "it would be cool" and "other mmos do it". Sorry.

*edit* Play /gems

Adding /gems to EQ was surely one of the most telling things about the game. It highlighted a major flaw. If the downtime was that long and the game was so fucking boring that they needed to add a Tetris clone for people while they med.... then I question the original design for the game in the first place. Luckily, medding is faster in SoD than it was on old school EQ, but still, just because something is the way it is, doesn't mean it shouldn't be questioned and couldn't be improved.

I see I've hit a brick wall of resistance with you people though, so all I can do is give up now I guess. I have to say though I'm really disappointed at your lack of openness to ideas, your quickness to accept "fine" as being enough, and quickness to suggest "try x class instead". That's a big mistake imo, but if nobody values my opinion, fuck it. I expected this from the long term SoD addicts who on the whole, get pissy whenever anyone suggests anything... but I didn't expect it from a dev.
 
Last edited:
The developers of Vanguard did make EQ. Sigil Games was basically Verant Interactive but with a bigger budget. If you believe EQ was ruined, then blame SoE.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom