humble request on higher tier raids

[Jimkoz]

Any chance of revamping the timers on spawns in the bottleneck of the higher end zones? I know the server is an aged server (its probably been running years before I started), with all the new up coming guilds and all the old existing guilds, current end game raid is harder to catch up then getting on the packers season tickets. (currently 28,723 in queue, eta before my name is picked to buy tickets 247 years from now).

Heres a few thoughts that could make "end game stuff" more available to everyone.
Options:
1) Do away with all boxing. (This thought blows since boxing really is helpful at lower levels).
2) Flag players that were part of the kill on raids, so they can not be apart of the same raid for 4 days. Meaning if a player kills "Phat loot dropper X" on Sunday, and the same raid boss respawns on Wednesday, that same character can not engage the raid boss until "Thursday".
3) Respawn all raid bosses every 12 hours! (Im sure this really isn't going to happen, but when you have 97 people in one zone camping wings for what could spawn or not spawn.. Its getting kind of crazy). I really do feel bad for any new guilds that are up and coming thru the ranks, the will never see the end game raids unless they are "guest" in with higher tier guilds.
4) Instance base raid zones, with flagging characters that were in an instance with the killing shot on bosses that they can not engage the same boss for 4 days.
5) Mix up the timers with a +/- 36 hours (this thought blows as well, since only the people with no lives and can be on 20 hours a day will still get all the end raid stuff).

 

[Pronger]

All your suggestions are pretty horrible to one degree or another and will do little to help any congestion...or do you mean competition? Many of your suggestions seem to want to turn the game into a vending machine for loot and all do not seem well thought out one bit.

This game is a time sink, one should not be able to 'catch up' easily to others who have put in more time/effort without working their asses off. Of course this means some guilds will be at a distinct disadvantage but you have to earn your way to the top. Sometimes that means being stuck in a tier for awhile until you can progress. Sometimes it means backfarming for awhile and letting the other guy move up a tier if one is unable to compete.

 

[Allielyn]

I am going to address this post in full, in large part because I know there are a lot of players who feel the way you do. This is a complex and multifaceted issue, and it is a good idea to talk about it openly. I hope that other players can also discuss this issue openly without sarcasm and snark - this is, in fact, S&R, not Happyville.

There are two faulty assumptions with your general premise.

The first is that we'd like to take steps so that everybody can raid and see all the content - this simply isn't true. We're not elitist but you can see how making raiding accessible to all players all the way through the end game would trivialize it for half the population.

In addition, in the defense of progression here, the raid game became much much MUCH more accessible to a larger percentage of the population post-SoD 2.0, where loot rewards were effectively doubled and a smaller force was needed to progress. Prior to that change, few guilds made it past tier 4/5.

In fact, that's a big part of our problem. With so many mid-tier zones to choose from now, and the quicker loot return and ease of entering the raid game, there is very little competition in raiding coming up through the ranks - until you get to the 'bottleneck'. Which brings us to the second faulty assumption: that easing the bottleneck would fix the problem of having something to kill. It won't.

There are diminishing raid targets at the higher end, so pushing guilds now at tier 8 through to tier 9 would only move the bottleneck: AND make it worse.

Having said that, let me address your specific points:

Heres a few thoughts that could make "end game stuff" more available to everyone.
Options:
1) Do away with all boxing. (This thought blows since boxing really is helpful at lower levels).
2) Flag players that were part of the kill on raids, so they can not be apart of the same raid for 4 days. Meaning if a player kills "Phat loot dropper X" on Sunday, and the same raid boss respawns on Wednesday, that same character can not engage the raid boss until "Thursday".
3) Respawn all raid bosses every 12 hours! (Im sure this really isn't going to happen, but when you have 97 people in one zone camping wings for what could spawn or not spawn.. Its getting kind of crazy). I really do feel bad for any new guilds that are up and coming thru the ranks, the will never see the end game raids unless they are "guest" in with higher tier guilds.
4) Instance base raid zones, with flagging characters that were in an instance with the killing shot on bosses that they can not engage the same boss for 4 days.
5) Mix up the timers with a +/- 36 hours (this thought blows as well, since only the people with no lives and can be on 20 hours a day will still get all the end raid stuff).

1 - I actually would love this, but the server population is not at that point where it would be feasible yet. I am not sure it ever will be, and if/when it is, I am not sure that there would ever be enough support for such an entrenched policy. Once people get used to boxing, they get a little bored of playing just one character.

2 - I don't mind this idea either, although I would suggest a 1 week timer. Before all you raiders get up in my grill, let me say WHY. There is a lot of content, particularly at the mid tiers, that is ignored because there is so much to choose from and because players are used to the standard zones that have been out a while (risk vs. reward is lower in familiar zones). This would force players to utilize more of the content available, as well as help ease some of the higher end congestion (not all of it, it still only takes 2-3 hardcore guilds to win the 'race' to a named spawn to keep the rest out.) In addition, I could see this as a way to ease some of the named mobs cash farming congestion. Unfortunately, however, it is likely too much work code-wise to make it worthwhile.

3 - No. See my reply to your original premise, particularly the part about how moving people through tiers would not solve any bottleneck problem, and the part about how we don't actually want all players to get to the top quickly.

4 - No instancing. This has been a firm stance for a very long time and I don't see it changing anytime soon. This is a social game, with social interaction and social consequences. In fact, most people who have been here a long time will tell you the #1 reason they keep playing - is the people they play with. We like to preserve the social aspect of the game, thank you.

5 - Randomization is great, but it can only take us so far when it comes to working around competition. At some point, you have to realize that it's not a predictable spawn timer that's stealing 'your raid targets', it's the other guild's ability to scout faster, log in earlier, and raid for longer hours.

I realize this may be disheartening for an up-and-coming raider to read, but you should know that where there is a will, there is a way, and for those of you who would cry that your busy real life has to come first, understand that you have made a value judgment and that might mean sacrificing the ability to reach tier 8 raiding in SoD. And there is nothing wrong with that.

There are many ways to explore the world, advance your character, and immerse yourself in the lore of SoD - raiding is only one of them. Don't get too hung up about being stuck one place or another. If you stick around long enough, play your class well enough, and keep trying, you'll still progress.

 

[Allielyn]

I have removed messages which are inappropriate for S&R. If I have to remove any more I *will* hand out forum bans. You have been warned.

If you don't have anything constructive to say, then don't post.

 

[Bud]

The only thing that will remedy the congestion at this point is new content.

 

[TapeinV]

Or switching back to 36 man raids.

As dirty as the staff seemed to have thought they were, they did wonders in keeping the amount of guilds on this server down. When 36 man raids were going on, there were about 375-400ish on at peaks, sometimes hitting 450 and beyond, yet there were only like, 5? major guilds at the time 2.0 went in.

Larger raid caps > less guilds > more content for all.

 

[Jimkoz]

Thanks for replying to the post Allielyn. Any chance to make some of those "mid" tier raid zones higher level raid zones? A tier 9/10 guild going into a tier 5,6,7 or even 8 is just too easy to even do it. I do agree with you on the fact that tier 1 thru 4 guilds are almost in the same scope of population as the tier 8/9/10 guilds. Tier 5,6 and 7 (if there are any of those guilds) have it really nice.

 

[TapeinV]

Tier5, 6, and 7 don't have it so nice, or didn't last night.

Rarely do you find anything that is worth its value to spend time clearing. Lots of time it's one named that's up and isn't even worth the time/effort to clear all the trash just for that named. I can remember raiding for 14-20 hours back in the day slamming targets all night. Those good times are a thing of the past unless you count gem farming or something towards raiding.

 

[Pronger]

And to the other posters comment, yes if you flag players with a 4 day timer flag, this will free up "congestions" as you know you aren't going to be able to attack the raid boss and therefore have no reason to sit waiting in line. Actually gives the "casual" raider a chance at actually "raiding" something.

Casual raiders have the same chances to raid something as hardcore folks do as it currently stands. The same rules for holding a zone/raid target apply regardless of a guild perceiving itself as casual or otherwise. Just because the targets you would prefer to kill are often down when you would prefer to kill them, it does not mean game mechanics should be changed to suit those preferences.

2 - I don't mind this idea either, although I would suggest a 1 week timer. Before all you raiders get up in my grill, let me say WHY. There is a lot of content, particularly at the mid tiers, that is ignored because there is so much to choose from and because players are used to the standard zones that have been out a while (risk vs. reward is lower in familiar zones). This would force players to utilize more of the content available, as well as help ease some of the higher end congestion (not all of it, it still only takes 2-3 hardcore guilds to win the 'race' to a named spawn to keep the rest out.) In addition, I could see this as a way to ease some of the named mobs cash farming congestion. Unfortunately, however, it is likely too much work code-wise to make it worthwhile.

I read and somewhat agree with Allielyns points regarding that specific suggestion but at the extreme high end I doubt it would work as intended. There are much fewer options available at the top end for content and implementing any system that says....you guys cant kill this target even though its standing in front of your face and mocking your family...may not be such a great idea even if it was feasible to implement.

Also, while I am glad that more content was added for earlier tier raids, I do not believe players should be artificially forced to contend with it outside of regular respawn timers if that is what they so choose. If people wish to be narrow minded about what targets they raid, let them. If a raid force is hunting a specific item or 2 from one encounter, why add an additional timer into the mix besides respawn rate alone?

Larger raid caps > less guilds > more content for all.

I disagree. The same issues would still be present since a guild would have to spend much longer at a given tier to prepare for the next. It may not be a big deal at earlier tiers where there are 6+ zones to choose from but the bottleneck will still be there as guilds progress. Also as you noted, just because content exists and is spawned, does not mean it is necessarily worth going after for any number of reasons. Personally, I loved 36 man raids but going back to that type of a system is not a cure all and would require a boatload of existing encounters/zones be reworked and likely the reworking of any planned content for the expansion.


Time to reminisce...
I also remember raiding MANY hours at a stretch for 5/7 days a week but those times can not be recaptured unless possibly at mid/earlier tiers since evidently there are many targets who are completely ignored according to Allielyn. The population has matured quite a bit and dynamics change. I also remember getting cockblocked on Taeshlin not by a guild who had need of the mob's loots, but by one who simply did not want anyone else in IP when it was top end...gogo 72 toons in Prison all with thumbs up ass!! But its part of the game at the top end and I would not wish that to change just to make things easier....though I likely felt otherwise at the time


...sorry for the long ass post, I have nothing to do this afternoon

 

[TapeinV]

I wish I could know this content that is ignored, because unless there are zones completely missing off of the zone status list, I do a thorough checking of zones around our tier (4-low 7), which is what I would consider mid-tier.

 

[Allielyn]

Thanks for replying to the post Allielyn. Any chance to make some of those "mid" tier raid zones higher level raid zones? A tier 9/10 guild going into a tier 5,6,7 or even 8 is just too easy to even do it. I do agree with you on the fact that tier 1 thru 4 guilds are almost in the same scope of population as the tier 8/9/10 guilds. Tier 5,6 and 7 (if there are any of those guilds) have it really nice.

This isn't a bad idea either, except for a general policy as set by Wiz that wanted all the planar zones to be on *approximately* the same level. Of course, Wold and I can change that now but it still requires a lot of dev effort that we've been trying terribly hard to shunt towards Ikisith progression.

Remember, if we really want to ease congestion, we'd need to add more higher end content (where there is no congestion yet). That means more than just one or two more raid zones.

Or switching back to 36 man raids.

As dirty as the staff seemed to have thought they were, they did wonders in keeping the amount of guilds on this server down. When 36 man raids were going on, there were about 375-400ish on at peaks, sometimes hitting 450 and beyond, yet there were only like, 5? major guilds at the time 2.0 went in.

Larger raid caps > less guilds > more content for all.

I don't like the idea of putting the raid cap back at 36 - we do like smaller guilds to be able to succeed as well without being constantly jacked of players by the few high end guilds that could compete, and in that respect SoD 2.0 has succeeded marvelously. At the same time, it has provided a smaller margin of error on progression raids (if one player messes up, that's a bigger deal than previously) and in that respect made it a little bit more challenging. As a result more players have been able to access more content with more close-knit groups of friends - and that's not a bad thing at all.

However, we could do something like halve the amount of loot dropped and increase the spawn rate. I know that would be an EXTREMELY unpopular ruling (double the work for the same reward) but hear me out:

Previously, in a 36-man raid you were rewarded with 3 loots/kill (1/13 men in your raid), and now you're rewarded with 2-3 loots/kill on 18 man raids (1/6-9 men in your raid). That's essentially double the progression rate, and yes, that has a lot to do with our current situation. Lowering the drop rate to 1 loot/kill with up to a 50% chance of 2 (depending on raid makeup) would slow progression on all levels - back to the original rate - without doing away with the close-knit guild setup that we like.

This would of course help prevent future congestion at the same level, while a compensating temporary increase in spawnrate will help those at the congestion level now feel like they can compete a little more/better for rewards at that tier. No net influx of gear required.

 

[TapeinV]

I think the 1 loot/with up to 50% chance of 2 is actually not a terrible idea at all, if it means faster respawn times. As long as relics do not count towards that (which I currently do not think they do), that seems like quite possibly the best option and how it should have been set when SoD 2.0 was rolled out, imo.

 

[Pronger]

I think the 1 loot/with up to 50% chance of 2 is actually not a terrible idea at all, if it means faster respawn times. As long as relics do not count towards that (which I currently do not think they do), that seems like quite possibly the best option and how it should have been set when SoD 2.0 was rolled out, imo.

I agree but some mobs will need their loot tables reworked..like those with monstrous tables.

 

[Kelval]

Cut down timers (at the cost of less loot per kill) would probably give a chance to many guilds to see mobs that are otherwise almost always permalocked.

This is a big change tho, almost as big as the SoD 2 (not saying that I dislike it. I am actually 55% pro -45% con)

 

[kibeth]

I think the 1 loot/with up to 50% chance of 2 is actually not a terrible idea at all, if it means faster respawn times. As long as relics do not count towards that (which I currently do not think they do), that seems like quite possibly the best option and how it should have been set when SoD 2.0 was rolled out, imo.

All I can think of to say is that in the long run, this wouldn't give people more targets or ease any kind of congestion. All it would do is give the "hardcore" raiders more of a reason to raid 7 days a week and block out other from the content, instead of the roughly 3 days a week now that it all gets taken down.

Most of these guys wouldn't care, it just more of a reason for them to raid more, which they already would be doing if there were targets to kill.

It would also probably increase the amount of time people spend at each tier waiting for rare drops that were easier to get under the 2/3 loot per kill system. I don't think slowing progression is a bad thing at all, but it will lead to lots and lots of crying on the boards about not being able to catch up (more threads exactly like this).


And in response to this:
3) Respawn all raid bosses every 12 hours! (Im sure this really isn't going to happen, but when you have 97 people in one zone camping wings for what could spawn or not spawn.. Its getting kind of crazy). I really do feel bad for any new guilds that are up and coming thru the ranks, the will never see the end game raids unless they are "guest" in with higher tier guilds.

That sentence about never seeing the end game raids unless their guests of the higher tier guilds, is absolute falseness. Trust me, there was TONS of congestion in tier7-9 when Numinous was coming through, and all it took was the will to find targets and trying to log in 1/2 hour earlier than we used to, and BAM, things weren't so "impossible" anymore. Its all about the effort you put in, if your going to casually raid, your going to struggle for quality targets, if your hardcore, its going to be easier. Thats the nature of everything in life.

 

[Manguadi]

It already takes months and months for a tier 0 character recruited by a tier 10 guild to get a full suit of gear. Progression on this server is slow enough as it is; reducing the number of raid loot you get per night in exchange for having more targets each week (if you run out as it is) is a very painful suggestion.

It also ignores the basic cause of too many people for not enough content. If there were fewer players, the problem wouldn't exist. Therefore, slowing the rate at which players progress penalizes players for liking this game so much that they overpopulate it.

 

[Pronger]

It already takes months and months for a tier 0 character recruited by a tier 10 guild to get a full suit of gear. Progression on this server is slow enough as it is; reducing the number of raid loot you get per night in exchange for having more targets each week (if you run out as it is) is a very painful suggestion.

It also ignores the basic cause of too many people for not enough content. If there were fewer players, the problem wouldn't exist. Therefore, slowing the rate at which players progress penalizes players for liking this game so much that they overpopulate it.

It should take months and months for a char to go from T-0 to T-10 in gear alone. It should take exponentially longer to progress the normal way. The idea in this thread from Allielyn was to set the rate of progression to the way it once was....except it will still be faster due to the boatload of content available now as opposed to pre 2.0. Adding more zones in an effort to ease congestion is a short sighted fix; the current drop rates are bringing too much raid gear onto the server too fast and adding to that would not fix anything.

The overall population currently seems rather similar to the population pre 2.0 but the number of guilds fighting for mid/high tier content has skyrocketed due to the high rate of progression and 18 man raids. Some of this can be attributed the server population maturing but nowhere near all of it.

Most raiders will say (truthfully or not) that they do not raid for loot or epeen, they raid to be with friends or raid for the aspect of teamwork or raid to progress or whatever...so slowing progression will have little impact on most folks.

The issue is not with too many people for too little content, that is just the symptom. The cause is the rapid rate of progression that 2.0 made possible. Nobody can be reasonably expected to just pump out content every time a tier gets crowded when people are able to burn through tiers.

Will it be an insta fix for current issues like crowding? No, of course not. The issue itself did not materialize overnight and also the solution (if any) will likely take time to have any visible impact.


TL;DR -- 2.0 handed out too much candy and folks got spoiled.

 

[Manguadi]

Pointing the blame at 2.0 for handing out more loot/person kind of ignores the whole history of events. 2.0 had loot set the way it was because with fewer people you would be able to progress faster, which would lead to more competition, which would lead to less to do, which would lead back to slower progression. Therefore, more loot dropped.

Also, blaming too much loot for heavy competition seems patently ridiculous.

Saying too many people for too little content is a symptom is also flawed. You can imagine if there was one mob to kill and one million people attempting to kill it, there would be too many people for too few mobs. If there were one million mobs for one person, there is sufficient content for the player. This establishes that there is a scale with a balancing point between available content and size of player base. I believe we have exceeded that balance at certain points in raiding progression, as evidenced by the ridiculous number of posts complaining about too little to do.

Slowing progression is not a good reason also because of the number of guilds who are actually working on end game content. If the game is this hard to finish with mega fast candy dropping 2.0 loot, I would suspect more people should have the game finished. Ikisith is meant to be the highest of the high end; new, end game content, not for everyone. People should be able to get there in a reasonable amount of time.

Consider the first guild to progress after the implementation of tomes, numinous, it took them over a year to go from a starter guild to just beginning end game content. This seems pretty clearly fast enough.

 

[Pronger]

Pointing the blame at 2.0 for handing out more loot/person kind of ignores the whole history of events. 2.0 had loot set the way it was because with fewer people you would be able to progress faster, which would lead to more competition, which would lead to less to do, which would lead back to slower progression. Therefore, more loot dropped.

Also, blaming too much loot for heavy competition seems patently ridiculous.

How so? Tier 1 and 2 are the same they were in 2.0 but T3 exploded in content and made several new avenues available that potentially can reach up to T6/7. Since loot rates are what they are, instead of having to spend X amount of time in a particular tier, folks were able to have a fraction of that invested to progress due to the drop rate and additional content. This potentially brings more bodies into T6+ territory rather fast. People usually do not stay in a tier for lolz, they do so because they can not progress due to either mob difficulty or gear level. More gear = faster progression = more crowding.

Consider the first guild to progress after the implementation of tomes, numinous, it took them over a year to go from a starter guild to just beginning end game content. This seems pretty clearly fast enough.

A year is waaaay too fast to be able to churn through that much raid content imo and shows something is wonky with the rate of progression. I am all for new/more content but when it gets to the point where somebody can progress to end game in a year from nothing, something is not right. I don't care how dedicated those players were, there should have been something preventing the ability to steamroll tiers like that. Considering this is an MMORPG it stands to reason that it should be more of a timesink (slower progression). New zones will of course alleviate current congestion in whatever tier the new content is added to but without also reducing the drop rate it will only artificially move the spot people are getting congested at since there will never be more high end content then low/mid.

Saying too many people for too little content is a symptom is also flawed. You can imagine if there was one mob to kill and one million people attempting to kill it, there would be too many people for too few mobs. If there were one million mobs for one person, there is sufficient content for the player. This establishes that there is a scale with a balancing point between available content and size of player base. I believe we have exceeded that balance at certain points in raiding progression, as evidenced by the ridiculous number of posts complaining about too little to do.

People always run out of things to do (or want to do) and people will always complain...especially at the high end. This is not new nor isolated to SoD. In theory would not slowing down progression in whatever manner keep people busy and help prevent players from reaching the point where there is nothing left to do? I agree there needs to be a balance in content/raiders but I also feel a reduction in drop rate is required. Allielyn also mentioned increasing spawn rate along with a reduction in loots per kill, that would give more folks an opportunity to raid something and it would do so without having to design/itemize/balance/babysit/re-balance/re-itemize new content.

Slowing progression is not a good reason also because of the number of guilds who are actually working on end game content. If the game is this hard to finish with mega fast candy dropping 2.0 loot, I would suspect more people should have the game finished. Ikisith is meant to be the highest of the high end; new, end game content, not for everyone. People should be able to get there in a reasonable amount of time.

Sure, but a reasonable time frame means different things to different people for many different reasons.

Saying the expansion will be the highest of the high end may mean something to you but I've heard those words before. It was said for IP, it was said for Thaz and I'll bet you a golden nickel it would have been said for ToT had Sanctum not been in the works....but it was also said for Sanctum. This should have no bearing on the rate of progression. The number of people that "finish" the game should be (and is) extremely low but again this has no bearing on rate of progression to get to that point. At T7+ the amount of content available is reduced from earlier tiers, the path to progression becomes linear again and less rapid from where it was in T2-T6.

I have said all I likely will on the subject, I don't really like repeating myself and have begun to do so. If you still disagree with me that is fine, we can agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Dpkronos]

I wish boxing would be disabled again. I hate not knowing who is playing what character and everyone is trading characters and its a game of who is logging who's bot and nobody actually plays clerics, enchanters or shamans and the guild main tanks are passed around like a two dollar whore. If you don't have friends with influence you can't get into a raid or the high end groups unless you are botting an enchanter or healer because if you won't someone else will. It forces people that don't want to box to do so.

Boxing also means the game has to be continually developed with that amount of characters in mind. Meaning that it becomes harder and harder to disallow it in the future, and as mentioned the playerbase gets used to it.

It would be much better to just make the individual classes more active and enjoyable then rescale the content and group xp system to a smaller playerbase. Give reason for people to actually want to main all of the classes. Is it more work though? Yea it is.

*I can box, I do box, but most of the time it is just aggravating. It would be cool if I could actually box what I wanted, but most of the time I'm forced to play whatever someone else needs and doesn't feel like playing. The whole process is just annoying when you are forced to do it. If I just up and decided that I am only going to play my character because that is the character I want to play and that is why I made it my progression in this game would likely hit a fat brick wall. I hate that.