High Tier Monk/BL Onehanders

[Dinadass]

The only stand-out onehanded weapon for these classes at the high end is Horok. Almost every other option has a substantially worse ratio and a much much worse proc. All the tier 10+ onehanders aside from Horok have extremely similar dps numbers which render them inferior to lower tier glove options and make them not worth their spots on the loot tables.

Edit- To throw some rough numbers in, just for comparison sake:
Assuming EF proc tome, 80% accuracy, 126% haste, 180% base damage from procs via tomes/foci/etc-
Horok proc dps- 76
Fist of the Dawn- 16
Hand of Twisted Magics- 7
Nail of Festering Decay- 6

Additionally, the next-best offhand options to Horok are fire based (Fist of the Dawn and Blaze gloves bare fist) which is problematic for a lot of high tier fights.

The one notable exception is Xenelaqui which has a pretty cool proc. Unfortunately there are two issues which prevent it from being that great: The proc doesn't stack with Cunning and RBoW, and also the buff from the proc has <50% uptime even with the EF proc tome.

The easiest possible solution I see is to just change Horok so that it's not lore and 2 drop for monks/beasts from 4.3 so we can dual wield them (and give people the already have Horok a second so they don't all need to do 4.3 again which would be unfair). This would also give monks/beasts a bit more utility through better uptime on the -resist debuff portion of the proc. Since it only lasts 3 seconds on average it doesn't really have much of an impact most of the time.

Letting us use two Horoks would be a lot simpler than rebalancing a dozen different weapons and gloves so they scale appropriately. It would be a welcome dps/utility boost to two classes who need it at the high end.

 

[Tevinter]

The only stand-out onehanded weapon for these classes at the high end is Horok. Almost every other option has a substantially worse ratio and a much much worse proc. All the tier 10+ onehanders aside from Horok have extremely similar dps numbers which render them inferior to lower tier glove options and make them not worth their spots on the loot tables.

Additionally, the next-best offhand options to Horok are fire based (Fist of the Dawn and Blaze gloves bare fist) which is problematic for a lot of high tier fights.

The one notable exception is Xenelaqui which has a pretty cool proc. Unfortunately there are two issues which prevent it from being that great: The proc doesn't stack with Cunning and RBoW, and also the buff from the proc has <50% uptime even with the EF proc tome.

The easiest possible solution I see is to just change Horok so that it's not lore and 2 drop for monks/beasts from 4.3 so we can dual wield them (and give people the already have Horok a second so they don't all need to do 4.3 again which would be unfair). This would also give monks/beasts a bit more utility through better uptime on the -resist debuff portion of the proc. Since it only lasts 3 seconds on average it doesn't really have much of an impact most of the time.

Letting us use two Horoks would be a lot simpler than rebalancing a dozen different weapons and gloves so they scale appropriately. It would be a welcome dps/utility boost to two classes who need it at the high end.

I agree with this post, in fact I think I was the one who brought up this idea to you. This is probably the best idea and would require much less dev work than rebalancing a ton of items. The only way I can think to improve this idea is to make a MH and a OH version of horok and give them the beastlord epic 1.0 graphic. Every other class gets a hood OH option, even beastlords (that motha fuckin spear is pimp)

 

[Dinadass]

Yes this was Tev's idea, all credit goes to Tev. And maybe the BL epic graphics would be cool, I kind of like the current graphic though.

But it simply is the easiest way to bump high tier monks/beasts up a bit, certainly moreso than the my h2h stuff or the monk balance thread.

Spear of the Szithri is decent but still not substantially better than other options unless you need it for the focus.

 

[Silosobi]

I have nothing against this idea, however, I really don't see it ever being implemented... Just improve the proc on the weapons Susvain listed and on blazewind gloves.

 

[Dinadass]

Casters get a weapon that can transform and others get one with a clicky that is used very often, I don't think giving monks and beasts a set of onehanders is that out of line.

But maybe moving the decimal point on the proc values for our other weapons is more reasonable. Or tweaking both their procs and their rates.

I'm like 90% sure that the tier 3 Experimental Staff of Skycalling is better offhand dps than anything from tiers 10-11 and maybe even 12. And just nerfing that staff isn't really the answer.

 

[Tevinter]

ALTERNATE IDEA: Allow horok to be transformed into a 2handed version via forge like the caster sword, but change the graphic to something cool when its a 2hander seriously that thing would look lame if you swung it with 2 hands. kind of thematic because a kaleidoscope rotates and has different colors and shit or something like that.

Horok, Reality's Kaleidoscope
[MAGIC ITEM][LORE ITEM][NO DROP]
Slot: Primary
Skill: 2H Blunt Atk Delay 27
DMG: 52 AC:35
Magic DMG: 4
Skill Mod: 2 Hand Blunt: +5
Effect: Shatter Reality (Melee Proc, 15.7%)
STR: +40 DEX: +40 CHA:+40 +20 INT
HP: +320 MANA: +320
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON +15
Flowing Though: +2
WT: 0.0 Size: SMALL
Class: MNK BST
Race: ALL

#1 choice of weapon model is ragecaller, suggest alternate models because current horok model 2handed would be the lamest thing

 

[Vitali]

Monk off hand graphic please

 

[Dinadass]

ALTERNATE IDEA: Allow horok to be transformed into a 2handed version via forge like the caster sword, but change the graphic to something cool when its a 2hander seriously that thing would look lame if you swung it with 2 hands. kind of thematic because a kaleidoscope rotates and has different colors and shit or something like that.

Horok, Reality's Kaleidoscope
[MAGIC ITEM][LORE ITEM][NO DROP]
Slot: Primary
Skill: 2H Blunt Atk Delay 27
DMG: 52 AC:35
Magic DMG: 4
Skill Mod: 2 Hand Blunt: +5
Effect: Shatter Reality (Melee Proc, 15.7%)
STR: +40 DEX: +40 CHA:+40 +20 INT
HP: +320 MANA: +320
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON +15
Flowing Though: +2
WT: 0.0 Size: SMALL
Class: MNK BST
Race: ALL

#1 choice of weapon model is ragecaller, suggest alternate models because current horok model 2handed would be the lamest thing

That would also be a pretty good fix. Right now aside from Entropy's Spine all the high tier twohanders are garbage (seriously Perd parses like 150-200 dps lower than Horok) and a 2hb Horok would be a good alternative to Entropy's Spine when you can't AE or are fight fire resistant stuff. And then someday when there are other good onehanders to use we'd be able to pair them with Horok if we wanted.

 

[Kedrin]

The only stand-out onehanded weapon for these classes at the high end is Horok. Almost every other option has a substantially worse ratio and a much much worse proc.

So the *current* hardest to get 1 hand blunt in the game is the best dps 1 hand blunt. And this is a problem?

Let me just double check so I am not forgetting anything....

1.111 - 1.185 Horok, Reality's Kaleidoscope from 4.3
1.025 - 1.05 Fist of the Dawn from Gru`Niet Tribe T12
1 Nail of Festering Decay from Mistress Saitha T11
0.947 - 1.053 Hand of Twisted Magics From Iskkath's Experiment T11
0.962 - 1 Hand of Delusions from Animation of Sil`rel`din T10
0.966 Xenelaqui, Muse of the Fallen from Nylastra'Zara, The Firstborn T11

You missed:
0.9 - 1.1 Spear of the Szithri from An overgrown szithri T10

It hurts your argument a bit. This post is titled "High Tier Monk/BL Onehanders" after all and it is the most used Beastlord offhand at high end.

All the tier 10+ onehanders aside from Horok have extremely similar dps numbers which render them inferior to lower tier glove options and make them not worth their spots on the loot tables.

I believe the progression of rations on weapons, creeping up as slow as they do, is problematic for every melee dps in SoD. Not just Monks. This is one cause of your observation of "extremely similar dps numbers".

I also believe that procs are becoming more and more important as a melee dps character progresses thought the high end. This mainly stems from the abundance of caster centralized tomes and lack of Melee DPS tomes.

Not to derail this topic too much; let me just quickly count the PURE DPS melee tomes in the game:

1) Tome of Striking
2) Manual of Triggered Casting (do you see the humor?)

VS

PURE DPS caster tomes in the game:

1) Tome of Critical Evocation
2) Tome of the Mind
3) Tome of Racing Thoughts
4) Tome of Magic Mastery // Tome of Frost Mastery // Tome of Flame Mastery // Tome of Infection Mastery // Tome of Lifetap Mastery (I find it difficult to separate these all however most classes benefit from more than one of these)
5) Manual of Triggered Casting

Melee are forced to itemize their characters around the procs on their weapons. Marza saw this problem and band-aided it with INT on melee gear.

The easiest possible solution I see

I for one am extremely tired of having to resort to "easy" fixes of problems that are quite large. Perhaps this makes me an asshole. I just cant see why pulling some better procs on a handful of items is super difficult.

Nail of Festering Decay has always been a lack luster weapon. It's sad because the weapon graphic is quite bad ass and Saitha is a difficult boss mob that should reward players a bit more in the weapons department. Adding 1 Disease damage to this weapon and upping the proc rate by 10% would do wonders.

I am not saying this would fix all the problems with melee dps but its crazy if people truly think that adjusting weapons their proper power level is out of the question.

just change Horok so that it's not lore and 2 drop for monks/beasts from 4.3 so we can dual wield them

I can not disagree with this statement more.

(and give people the already have Horok a second so they don't all need to do 4.3 again which would be unfair).

WTF.

This would also give monks/beasts a bit more utility through better uptime on the -resist debuff portion of the proc. Since it only lasts 3 seconds on average it doesn't really have much of an impact most of the time.

wait are you going full retard? I heard to never go full...

Letting us use two Horoks would be a lot simpler than rebalancing a dozen different weapons and gloves so they scale appropriately.

A dozen is 12 dude. 13 if you're a baker. You listed four items, and said one doesn't need changed. How is asking for three items in the game to be reconsidered for proc changes harder than just handing out free loot to 30+ characters?

Casters get a weapon that can transform

Are you really trying to say the two handed Bane of the Fallen God is good for anyone other than an Enchanter right here to win this ridiculous pseudo argument?

others get one with a clicky that is used very often

That is replaced by an item off a T8monster.

I don't think giving monks and beasts a set of onehanders is that out of line.

But maybe moving the decimal point on the proc values for our other weapons is more reasonable. Or tweaking both their procs and their rates.

Damn, we agree on something Finally.

________________________________________________________________

In closing, Monks have one of the BEST 4.3 weapons in the game.

Wizards and Mages got screwed hard with the 2 hander nerf. Basically Spire of Destruction is Best in slot, a T11 item.

Warriors basically don't even get a 4.3 weapon.

I think you should be happy with one of them. Call me crazy.

 

[Dinadass]

Yes, Horok is the best and hardest to obtain monk/bst onehander. There is a huge gap between it and all onehanders as a result of its superior ratio and proc. The problem is that no other onehanders are anywhere near as good, including the Spear (I fail to see how this hurts my argument btw... have you ever parsed melee elemental damage vs regular weapon damage? The spear is another ~1 ratio weapon with a proc that adds low dps except it also has a good focus on it.) The closest we come is a bare fist with UC or BW gloves, but that requires a big stat sacrifice and is also very very dependent on disease/fire for both the melee damage and the proc. There needs to be a better progression of weapons for monks and beasts (and probably other melees as well, I'm not sure, but I'd imagine things like bard 4.3 and custo sword are pretty big outliers compared to other weapons).

When you include Silence, Handwraps of Twisted Souls, Matrons Grasp, Ule's Conception, Abyss Gloves... as well as the other t9ish onehanders you get around a dozen items, like I said.

The fact that some other classes get less use out of their 4.3 weapons doesn't really pertain to this thread. All it does is illustrate the overall issues with endgame itemization and point to other areas that should be looked at. Like warrior scythe still being virtually irreplaceable at t13; I'd advise some t12+ warriors to come up with suggestions but I don't think any play any more. And wiz and mage dps at the 4.3 level doesn't seem to be lacking even with the nerf to the 2h sword, which people have argued against before and probably will again. Like I said, their lack of balance/progression doesn't mean monks and beasts should have to suffer the same fate.

Call me retarded if you want Kedrin (actually you're calling Tev retarded since it was his idea) but at this point I don't see anything wrong with posting ideas that are unlikely to be implemented. If I thought that it would be worth the effort of listing all of the monk/bst weapons in the game and explaining why certain ones are too good and certain ones are lacking and then include suggestions on how to fix it (which I've actually partially done with all of the h2h stuff) I'd do that. But it seems like any suggestions to fix balance or QoL issues on this server, no matter how glaringly obvious, are unlikely to ever be addressed, and the odds are inversely proportional to the amount of work they would take to implement. It boils down to "fix all the other weapons so they're better than BOE gloves or give me another one of the weapons that actually does it's job."

So yeah at this point suggesting that I get another Horok for my offhand seems reasonable. Or a 2hb version too like Tev dreamed up, I'm not picky.

 

[Tevinter]

How monk/bst non horok weapons should be

Fist of the Dawn : 42 base dmg 1 fire dmg 8% proc rate
Nail of Festering Decay : 21/20 ratio 13.5% proc rate
Hand of Twisted Magics : add 1 more magic damage and up proc rate to 9.2% proc rate
animation fist could probably get 1 more magic damage but i think it is relatively okay
Xenelaqui, Muse of the Fallen : 29/29 ratio and 6.7% proc rate with +10 1hb mod

those numbers are probably pretty close to what they should be to be actually decent weapons that can compare to bare fist.

SHADOWSTAFF this thing used to be really OP but now it is just kind of not as good. the proc rate should probably be bumped to 2.6 or 2.7% OR have the ratio bumped to 15/8 to be an actual comparable dps option as a 2hander

 

[Dinadass]

Up the ratio and/or proc rate on Perditrix a bit to make it better than shadow staff and I think that's a pretty good list.

 

[Tevinter]

ALSO change Xenelaqui proc to stack with rbow and cunning

 

[noteisley]

Well, to be honest... monk/bst weapons were really balanced before Horok nerf. Natural progression from SStaff, Horok, Spine/Blaze gloves. I could write a novel on other ways to fix them, but they were never broken.. only Lleoc topped meters with them and it was due to a lot of factors (vah, skill, old aod) but for a typical monk it was nothing great. Unnerf shadow staff, change horok back to the 5-proc version, make Spine single target proc. Change gloves back, make the AE not grow. Lower proc dmg on all by a small amount if you wish. No need to put in a ton of work on these, they were masterfully crafted with specific purpose in mind.

Aside from that there are two weapons that need complete revamps; Xenelequai and Perditrix. Two weapons from back to back bosses that are undesirable even on tier. Procs dictate a weapons usefulness, particularly for beastlords, and those two items have bad procs. There's many ways to fix those - proc rate increase or proc change on Perd, stacking fix if possible on Xen, otherwise that one is more complicated, if that is not on the docket I would suggest just removing them from the loot table, similar to Saitha lance (which had the exact same problem - bad proc), and either moving them to other easiest mobs or just scrapping them.

Weapon balance is very fickle because ratio means so little. For bsts it essentially means nothing. It requires some clever design to produce a natural progression. Not easy.

 

[Dinadass]

Wait did they really remove the lance from her loot table? Because the 1hb from her should probably get the same treatment if it can't be buffed to be usable.

 

[noteisley]

the 1hb is bad, because of the same reason any weapon is bad of course, the proc. but it is at least moderately usable on tier, but certainly the worst item she drops. I'd personally rather see that item get fixed than scrapped, especially since it's so easy to fix... change the proc, bam. 5 minutes of work.

 

[Dinadass]

So here's some parses I did. I had GOE, RFocus, SV, CotP, Combine BP, RBow and the same gear setups for all of them. Same target, all parses were ~10 minutes. I was mashing Round Kick for DPS combos the entire time, and was in stance 2.

Horok/Fist of the Dawn = 798 DPS
Perditrix = 714 DPS
Saitha 1hb/Spires Fist = 684 DPS
Fist of the Dawn/Saitha 1hb = 710 DPS
Fistwraps of the Chosen (tier6) = 722 DPS

That's a tier 12 2hb, tier 12+11 onehanders, and a pair of tier 11 weapons all being beaten by tier 6 gloves. Monks and Beastlords rely on procs since our auto attack DPS scales like shit, and there are way too few high tier weapons that have non-terrible procs.

 

[Dinadass]

Throwing in some more numbers just so I don't forget them. Five 10 minute parses on the same target, with same buffs (minus rbow since it doesn't stack with Xene), mashing dps combo in s2-

Horok/Xene = 816, 830, 816
Horok/Xene plus Taesh belt = 803, 810

So Xene is actually decent, but unfortunately it doesn't stack with Taesh belt clicky which causes other weapons to end up higher overall. It also doesn't stack with cunning, and I've never seen a high end bard using it either. So the current niche for Xene is "high tier monks without Taesh belt who don't have cunning" which is pretty limited.

Procs that do stuff other than just a DD are cool, but the stacking issues with Xene really kill it. If the proc were revamped to some other temporary buff that all three classes could actually use, that would be great (boon of the vulfwere????)