Heartbane Rapier

[Haenir]

So I finished the Crags Vah Rogue questline (as a lvl 40), and the final reward is.. underwhelming. I was disappointed to complete a non-trivial quest and realize the reward is inferior to gear that is easily obtained 20 levels earlier: Jerzakt's Feral Scimitar, and Very Sharp Leaf. I'm not sure if this is true for the other classes, but I'd suspect there's a similar power creep issue going on, I linked all the rewards I'm talking about below.

I thought fighting through Runnyeye was fun, and it's an interesting zone -- however, I think the final rewards for those class quests could stand to get bumped a bit. (Or some of the BoE gear like Very Sharp Leaf could stand to be nerfed a bit - but that's a whole 'nother ballgame.)

Warrior reward
Shaman reward
Beastlord reward
Bard reward
Rogue reward

 

[Kedrin]

I have never done these Rogue Quests and have no idea how difficult they are to accomplish. With that, saying that dagger is underwhelming at level 40 is humorous. A dagger with a 0.643 ratio at that level, with 1% crit and also a proc (although it is rather lackluster) it quite nice.

I believe some of the best weapons you can be using around level 40 are Warpmetal and or Ghostmetal.

For the highest ratio you could go with the Warpmetal Tel'Fii @ 0.643 IF you count all the magic dmg that might get resisted. This also have zero proc and no crit or any other stats.

Or you could use a Ghostmetal Dagger @ 0.5 with a 2.4% chance to proc a 44 point lifetap.

As you can see your "underwhelming" weapon is better than both of these weapons.

You go on to talk about how Jerzakt's Feral Scimitar, a weapon that isn't a dagger, is a better weapon. A weapon that has a 0.615 ration. Last time I checked 0.643 is a larger number than 0.615 but I am not so good at math. It does have a nice proc, however, in comparison to the dagger. Not sure why it would be a bad thing to use Heartbane Rapier in main with this in your offhand, since you can not backstab with a sword and comparing the two is rather dumb in the first place.

Then, it only gets better. You try to compare a dagger from a level 40 quest to an item that drops off named mobs that a fresh level 65 would have a very hard time soloing. This dagger also has a Recommended level of 50. This would lower its ratio, that is only 0.647 by the way or .004 BETTER that your "underwhelming" weapon you got 25 levels ago, to being worst than a Heartbane Rapier at level 40.

 

[Masuriya]

Can't really agree with you OP since it evolves into a pretty good weapon that is even good for a fresh 65. Considering it was 'free' and most dagger upgrades that aren't Very Sharp Leaf are going to cost you an arm and a leg or require raiding, I don't get the complaint. The only weapon you might find in the wild that's better would be a pounder's pincer from adepts but even that would need to evolve in order to beat it.

Honestly I would've LOVED a weapon like that as a ranger years ago starting out. Shit if I had remembered to do them before the Laser Deathtouch at 53 I would've done the baton for my bard. Even at the unevolved level it's going to be pretty hard to beat compared to other items at your level. There's very few better weapons that are easier to get a hold of cheaply or simply unless you get lucky clearing CMal trash.

Also agreeing with Kedrin that obtaining a very sharp leaf at level 20 is not 'simple' unless you manage to farm up the plat to either buy it off the vendors in OG that probably have 20 of them or off listsold. The scimitar maybe but even then the scimitar is a decently long camp unless you're lucky fighting trivial mobs that give no XP.

 

[Grinkles]

Funny to see you post about this questline, Haenir, as just earlier I tried sending you a tell asking if you planned on doing it. However, I must've been just a minute or two late, because you had already disappeared from /who. Sorry to hear you don't like the quest reward. Like others have said, I still think it's very nice for the level it can be attained. The fact that it's expable makes it even more fun, as you get to see the item develop alongside your character for a few levels.

Anyway, I'm glad to see someone getting some use out of Runnyeye. It has always been one of my favorite zones, and some of my fondest memories from the game happened in that zone many years ago. Also, there is a single path that 51+ characters can follow to reach the basement area without being DTed. The hallways leading to Ghulura, Queen of the Runnyeye will be forever inaccessible because they're crawling with the invisible DT mobs, but every other area of the zone is able to be reached by a high-end toon if you're diligent with the path you choose!

if I had remembered to do them before the Laser Deathtouch at 53 I would've done the baton for my bard.

I'm sure it's too little and much too late, but if you ever want me to escort you down to the basement area on your Bard one of these days to get started on the quests for fun/nostalgia, drop me a line.

 

[Otcho]

I can kind of agree with op, not because the item is bad but because some of those quests actually take a ridiculous amount of time due to rare drops/npc. You also have to grind and find the key to the lower levels of runnyeye. I remember sitting a warrior down there and giving up after the 5th part or so because I couldn't get a drop over a week of casually slaying mobs in that zone. That said it certainly was a better item pre ikisith drops. That said rapier model is the coolest.

 

[Haenir]

For the highest ratio you could go with the Warpmetal Tel'Fii @ 0.643 IF you count all the magic dmg that might get resisted. This also have zero proc and no crit or any other stats.

Or you could use a Ghostmetal Dagger @ 0.5 with a 2.4% chance to proc a 44 point lifetap.

As you can see your "underwhelming" weapon is better than both of these weapons.

True, however it I'm not using either of those weapons, so I'm not sure what point you're making.

You go on to talk about how Jerzakt's Feral Scimitar, a weapon that isn't a dagger, is a better weapon. A weapon that has a 0.615 ration. Last time I checked 0.643 is a larger number than 0.615 but I am not so good at math.

You do have a point, at max exp level the rapier is better ratio-wise. Currently my xp lvl on the scimitar makes it superior to the rapier until the very final xp lvl -- particularly since it's stats/proc are superior (although I'll admit I don't have a sense on how valuable +1 cs is), and it allows me to raise 1hs skill.

It does have a nice proc, however, in comparison to the dagger. Not sure why it would be a bad thing to use Heartbane Rapier in main with this in your offhand, since you can not backstab with a sword and comparing the two is rather dumb in the first place.

Currently using Very Sharp Leaf in main, which at lvl 40 has a ratio of 9/17 (fomelo isn't showing the value i see in game?). Heartbane at 0 xp level has a ratio of 14/28. So far, the vast majority of my xp has come from quest xp (which doesn't improve xpable weapons). Meaning that I expect to get to lvl 50 before maxing out it's xp (and thus never using it main-hand). I really don't expect to grind NPCs for 370,000 x 4 points of xp (even if I did I'm pretty sure the leaf would still outpace the rapier). Meaning as a main-hand piercer it is completely irrelevant.

Then, it only gets better. You try to compare a dagger from a level 40 quest to an item that drops off named mobs that a fresh level 65 would have a very hard time soloing. This dagger also has a Recommended level of 50. This would lower its ratio, that is only 0.647 by the way or .004 BETTER that your "underwhelming" weapon you got 25 levels ago, to being worst than a Heartbane Rapier at level 40.

And yet somehow I purchased this for ~400p. I've also seen multiple for sale on listsold for 700 - 1200 pp. Like I said in my original post, I think what I was pointing out is a larger power creep problem. I benefit from the phat BoE's that are readily available, but it makes the quest a bit irrelevant reward-wise.

Can't really agree with you OP since it evolves into a pretty good weapon that is even good for a fresh 65. Considering it was 'free' and most dagger upgrades that aren't Very Sharp Leaf are going to cost you an arm and a leg or require raiding, I don't get the complaint. The only weapon you might find in the wild that's better would be a pounder's pincer from adepts but even that would need to evolve in order to beat it.

This item was not "free" it involved 12+ hours (best guestimate since I didn't track tightly) of quest drop hunting. From the loot that I received while doing this (as well as getting my gate neck for Kelethin) I was able to purchase a Very Sharp Leaf and (just an hour ago) an Adamant Kirt`sek Pincer. I would probably do it again because I enjoyed Runnyeye as a zone, but I can imagine other new players simply ignoring the zone/quest because of what I'm trying to point out.

Also agreeing with Kedrin that obtaining a very sharp leaf at level 20 is not 'simple' unless you manage to farm up the plat to either buy it off the vendors in OG that probably have 20 of them or off listsold.

I don't understand, are you saying it's simple or not? You totally contradicted yourself here. I went the OG vendor route, total cost ~ 400pp. I made more than that by lvl 10. Finally saw one on vendor on my third trip to OG by lvl 20.

The scimitar maybe but even then the scimitar is a decently long camp unless you're lucky fighting trivial mobs that give no XP.

I guess I got lucky? on the scimitar (and the kobold king bracer, and the frilakh mask) since all three of those dropped within 4 kills (I saw 3 frilakh masks while I was farming tails for gate neck).

Anyway, I'm glad to see someone getting some use out of Runnyeye. It has always been one of my favorite zones, and some of my fondest memories from the game happened in that zone many years ago.

It has a nice feeling of progression to it. Since you have to work to gain access to deeper and deeper levels. My only sadness is I managed to get only one other person to join me in there.

That said it certainly was a better item pre ikisith drops.

I guess that's all I'm saying really. I suppose those drops allow folk to access content with more ease, but if it's more efficient to buy that gear than quest, I (personally at least) find it discouraging. Makes me feel like things I do pre-raid-game are less important.

That said rapier model is the coolest.

/agree

 

[Masuriya]

This item was not "free" it involved 12+ hours (best guestimate since I didn't track tightly) of quest drop hunting. From the loot that I received while doing this (as well as getting my gate neck for Kelethin) I was able to purchase a Very Sharp Leaf and (just an hour ago) an Adamant Kirt`sek Pincer. I would probably do it again because I enjoyed Runnyeye as a zone, but I can imagine other new players simply ignoring the zone/quest because of what I'm trying to point out.

So you gained xp and loot along with getting enough money to buy decently good items? Sorry, it wasn't free then, you got it as a bonus. Not to harp here but Runnyeye was probably blessed part of the time you were doing this so people would've been encouraged to go there anyway due to getting 50% extra xp. The quest was a nice bonus, however painful it is to get around runnyeye without keys. If you want to gripe the quest was annoying/too hard, this is a different complaint. The weapon is a fair reward at the level you're intended to get it. Buffing every single quest reward to keep up with boe/ikisith inflation seems like a thorough waste of time. What happens when more decent boe stuff comes out?

I don't understand, are you saying it's simple or not? You totally contradicted yourself here. I went the OG vendor route, total cost ~ 400pp. I made more than that by lvl 10. Finally saw one on vendor on my third trip to OG by lvl 20.

Killing the mob that drops it is not simple for a fresh 65 that would desire it. Buying it off a vendor is, yes. This also relies on people 1) killing said mob, 2) vendoring the item and 3) not catching a server reset/patch that repops the vendors.

If you don't want to quest, don't quest. But I can't agree with calling it a 'underwhelming' item.

 

[Haenir]

So you gained xp and loot along with getting enough money to buy decently good items? Sorry, it wasn't free then, you got it as a bonus.

Oh you raided for 12 hours, gained xp along with getting money to put towards your charm? But the gear that dropped is inferior to the stuff you already have? Don't complain, its a bonus.
Not exactly a perfect analogy, but I feel like how I imagine a high-tier raider would feel raiding a zone with high-tier mobs and low-tier loot.

Not to harp here but Runnyeye was probably blessed part of the time you were doing this so people would've been encouraged to go there anyway due to getting 50% extra xp.

This is precisely the reason my only companion went there. I imagine it's even more empty without the blessed xp.

The weapon is a fair reward at the level you're intended to get it. Buffing every single quest reward to keep up with boe/ikisith inflation seems like a thorough waste of time. What happens when more decent boe stuff comes out?

Fundamentally I agree with you. The weapon compares favorably to other weapons I could acquire through quests/loots at the level. On reflection since my original posting, I feel like the stats on the rapier isn't the problem. The problem is that I have easy access to BoE's that make it irrelevant. Since I'm assuming changing those BoE's to no drop isn't an option -- I wonder if instead of beefing stats on quest rewards like this, alternative solutions could be found -- like adding a worn illusion effect (can you even do that with weapons?).

Killing the mob that drops it is not simple for a fresh 65 that would desire it. Buying it off a vendor is, yes. This also relies on people 1) killing said mob, 2) vendoring the item and 3) not catching a server reset/patch that repops the vendors.

Does anyone actually kill mobs as a fresh 65 for the BoE's?

 

[Daffie]

I guess I got lucky? on the scimitar (and the kobold king bracer, and the frilakh mask) since all three of those dropped within 4 kills (I saw 3 frilakh masks while I was farming tails for gate neck).

You got ultra lucky, at least with the mask.

Does anyone actually kill mobs as a fresh 65 for the BoE's?

Yes, but not in Ikisith and most likely not in OG.

 

[Otcho]

Atleast its not ytrazliarch or swiftshot right guys

 

[Ezie3205]

Lol! I remember when I first rolled my war/clr duo and I saw the Ytrazliarch. I was like "I am gonna do this quest because its like an epic and even though I will probably have better than that by the time I can get it I will want it!" Fast forward to now... Completed it after about a year and a half of farming the rare drops, the rare mobs and begging Vah people to take me for a QP that was just gonna rot anyway. Still use it, easily one of my best weapons.

I think the progression of weapons 1-65 gives the wrong impression of what 65 weapons look like. At 55 using the Kirk"Sec pincer and Razorlief I thought at 65 there was only room to go up. But really, purchasing a weapon over .685 or .7 is fairly rare and usually expensive as hell. In fact there are not a lot of weapons above the .75 mark that are BoE at all. The pincer is another terrible example because the shit there would cream a fresh 65 group, it might flatten a decent 65 group. You can tell because of people's complete and utter reluctance to go there even when it is blessed.

The Very Sharp Leaf, like others have said, is a matter of luck. All the OG items sell lower to vendors than items of equal gear value and because of the non-social aspect of most of the monsters, the decent vendor trash and the good xp ratio OG sees a lot of groups per day. The fact that only 2 classes can use it, that those 2 classes aren't super common and as stated previous the low value of the item to vendors makes a really solid 65 weapon obtainable without very much fuss at lower levels. I can see how that may devalue items that are more level appropriate but it hardly makes the heartbane bad.

The fact of the matter is at around level 40 you bought the weapons you will be using till probably t5 or 6 of raiding. Also, +1% CS is hard to get pre 51 and is probably valuable enough to offset the .004 dps difference between the two weapons.

TL;DR
I quested for almost 2 years for a weapon that is .76 and paid 20k for one that is .74 (.808 without resists) and short of raiding T6 or higher, very unlikely to get any new weapons.

You lucked out and got your hands on probably the best BoEs you can buy for relatively cheap which are are barely better than your quested item at max xp. Unless you are raiding or do an Adept or two at 55/57 you are probably stuck with those two weapons too.

 

[Otcho]

At a certain point in your life you have to just say to yourself that you want to pay somebody 200k to farm you a pristine solarflare.
This is probably a more efficient route than doing ytrazliarch.

 

[Ludovician]

I feel OP's pain here.

As a rogue, your only new toys are weapons. You don't get spells to play with, armor and other gear doesn't make you feel instantly stronger (except maybe +Crit items).

IMO: By law, anything you quest should be substantially better than anything BoE that you can just buy off a vendor. If you want to blame Ikisith power creep, then fine, blame it. The time commitment that the quest takes is going to turn into nothing but wasted time because nobody is going to do this quest when it's way faster to just farm 2-3k pp and buy something better. I agree with OP here in that older quests should be bumped up to either be 1.) more unique fun rewards or 2.) more in line with the better BoE items available to same level players.

Edit: To Kedrin's points about Ghostmetal and Warpmetal: I used those when I leveled my rogue. They cost me like 300 plat each, and instead of "wasting time" doing quests I just powered to 55 so I could use better weapons, and while powering to that level I had amassed the money I needed to buy them.

These quests would be rewarding and worth while if this was a new server with a new playerbase, but as long as there are 65+ players plat farming, there's gonna be cheap gear thats buyable and way easier to obtain.

 

[Ezie3205]

I just suffered through the blade of suffering and spent the 20k on your run of the mill solarflare. Got tired of trying to get hysteria out of Cmal.

 

[darksabbath]

*snip*
These quests would be rewarding and worth while if this was a new server with a new playerbase, but as long as there are 65+ players plat farming, there's gonna be cheap gear thats buyable and way easier to obtain.

And if we didn't have charms to farm for, then there would be less of this gear sought out, and less sold off to vendors, where noobs buy it at discount. Therefore the items that did drop would likely see some price increases eventually. Except for items that would drop from the better xp zones.

Back on the main topic, The weapon from the quest is decently good, actually. And if I touched anything on it, it would be a change in the proc (seriously, 41 total damage is a tad weak), and maybe add a small backstab mod, like +3. Ratio-wise, it is on target for the level range. Instead of comparing it to a weapon a 65 would be able to get, it would be better to compare it to weapons you would gain off adepts at a similar level. Looking at the 36 to 43 adepts, we find:
Runeshatter is 0.438 and xp's into 0.625
Sludgetongue starts as a .529, and xp's into a .647 weapon.
Baton of the Theurgist is caster/bst usable, and starts as a 0.321 - 0.429, and xp's into 0.643 - 0.75.
Lupine-Fang Rondel is 0.556 - 0.667 and xp's into 0.611 - 0.722

Please note, not one of them has any +crit, or a damage proc (even a weak one like poison bolt).

 

[Haenir]

So, because it's been worming in my head I took the time to do a progression table of piercing weapons. Some interesting things I noticed (of course this is based off wiki data which may not be complete):

1. Best buyable weapons are: 1) Bonded Blade of the Torturer, 2) Partisan of the Lost, 3) Adamant Kirt'Sek Pincer, 4) Yclistinite Boring Spike, 5) Suzira's Heart Carver, 6) Fleshripper, 7) Mielech's Ribbone, 8) Very Sharp Leaf (Item), 9) Fang of Si'Thl'Li'Thara, 10) Huge Shark Fang
   Anything in the top 3 is ~ T3 or T4 equivalent, the top 10 is all T1 equivalent. Does that mean I can /ooc T1 Rogue LFG!
2. There are be a number of low-level piercers, e.g. Ornate Spear or Tiny Fishfang Knife or Steam-Powered Autoslicer which are completely irrelevant because of power creep.
3. There is a dearth of pokers between T7 and T9. What's that all about?
4. The Fang of Nightmares is another Deepshade drop, but significantly worse than the pincer (in the worst-case it's worse than the dagger given to you in the dream and in the best-case its close to the 43 adept dagger with no xp), and no drop to boot. Is it maybe a quest item and not intended to be gear?
5. Bounty hunting gear is potentially awesome, ending up at somewhere between T6 and T8 situationally.
6. The 57 adept poker ends up as good as T5 / T6: Pounder's Pincer
7. There is only one main hand piercer available from treasure hunting: Ebb
8. The fourth best weapon is also the second worst, depending on the situation: Flame-Forged Kalis
9. There next quest piercer after the rapier is Shadowy Spike of Skulduggery which is only slightly better than the Kirt'Sek pincer (bear in mind I'm focusing on ratio and disregarding other stats).

 

[Ludovician]

So, because it's been worming in my head I took the time to do a progression table of piercing weapons. Some interesting things I noticed (of course this is based off wiki data which may not be complete):

1. Best buyable weapons are: 1) Bonded Blade of the Torturer, 2) Partisan of the Lost, 3) Adamant Kirt'Sek Pincer, 4) Yclistinite Boring Spike, 5) Suzira's Heart Carver, 6) Fleshripper, 7) Mielech's Ribbone, 8) Very Sharp Leaf (Item), 9) Fang of Si'Thl'Li'Thara, 10) Huge Shark Fang
   Anything in the top 3 is ~ T3 or T4 equivalent, the top 10 is all T1 equivalent. Does that mean I can /ooc T1 Rogue LFG!
2. There are be a number of low-level piercers, e.g. Ornate Spear or Tiny Fishfang Knife or Steam-Powered Autoslicer which are completely irrelevant because of power creep.
3. There is a dearth of pokers between T7 and T9. What's that all about?
4. The Fang of Nightmares is another Deepshade drop, but significantly worse than the pincer (in the worst-case it's worse than the dagger given to you in the dream and in the best-case its close to the 43 adept dagger with no xp), and no drop to boot. Is it maybe a quest item and not intended to be gear?
5. Bounty hunting gear is potentially awesome, ending up at somewhere between T6 and T8 situationally.
6. The 57 adept poker ends up as good as T5 / T6: Pounder's Pincer
7. There is only one main hand piercer available from treasure hunting: Ebb
8. The fourth best weapon is also the second worst, depending on the situation: Flame-Forged Kalis
9. There next quest piercer after the rapier is Shadowy Spike of Skulduggery which is only slightly better than the Kirt'Sek pincer (bear in mind I'm focusing on ratio and disregarding other stats).

RE:
1.) Its a known fact that you can buy your way to about tier 3-4 even a bit of 5 in BoE gear. Being 65 with some AAs and crap gear is essentially "tier 1". Most raiding guilds starting from scratch start at tier 2-3 and move quickly to 4-5 and pick off T1 mobs here and there for Ancient spells. Most Tier 1 content is less of a gearcheck than it is "Can you function and coordinate enough to not get yourself and your raid killed".
2.) True
3.) I noticed this too, upgrades to pokers are few and far between in those tiers, however - there are plenty of options to upgrade offhand weapons in those tiers. Cane of Calefaction, The Longsword from Frost, and there is a tier 8 (I think?) Poker in Frost too. Name eludes me.
4.) No Idea
7.) Treasure hunting is better to fill in gear gaps than to actually fully gear off of. Consider treasure hunting like you would a raid zone - it doesn't have everything but it has some good things for the effort.

I don't know if you looked at 6 man piercers, CMAL offers some excellent ones in CMAL 3 and 3.2 that I used for a long time. Twilight Rapier isn't that hard to get and it's absurdly good for the time / effort it takes.

http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Ysthar_Parrying_Dagger - Offhand only but you won't find a better ratio for the work you have to put in.
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Yshtar_Battle_Dagger - Drops off trash CMAL 2 mobs, easy to get
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Requiem's_Final_Strike - Tougher to get, more of a DPS check than anything else
http://wiki.shardsofdalaya.com/index.php/Twilight_Rapier - Toughest of the 4, not out of reach for a low-mid tier 65 group

 

[Masuriya]

Cmal has 3 daggers at least, one from 2 trash, another from one of the bosses near the mines, and the chaos mages (which is strangely, the worst out of the bunch). But it's not exactly a secret that if you're a fresh 65 you want to smack the cmal pinata a bunch.

While I agree rapier is really good, 3.2 is also pretty hard to catch up unless you can mobilize a group fast due to being part of the Vah. The parrying dagger/2 trash piercer is definitely a great combo though.

 

[Otcho]

I think a lot of the "junk" items from the deepshade are actually carryovers from a really really old zone before the moon exploded in sod. AKA outdated by years. They're not meant to be good or used for anything, just flavor.

 

[Haenir]

RE:
I don't know if you looked at 6 man piercers, CMAL offers some excellent ones in CMAL 3 and 3.2 that I used for a long time. Twilight Rapier isn't that hard to get and it's absurdly good for the time / effort it takes.

I did notice those, definitely going to aim for those, particularly since 6-man seems fun.

1.) Its a known fact that you can buy your way to about tier 3-4 even a bit of 5 in BoE gear.

Does this bother anyone else as much as it bothers me? It seems like a surefire way to encourage scumming.

I think a lot of the "junk" items from the deepshade are actually carryovers from a really really old zone before the moon exploded in sod. AKA outdated by years. They're not meant to be good or used for anything, just flavor.

That makes a lot of sense. Also exploding moon sounds like a sweet GM event.