For my political Pals in Dalaya's Beginners (Iraq Edition!)

[Xanex]

What were we discussing again? Oh right! Liberal "talking points" about Iraq, such as:

The Cost of War (just in dollars), not lives (and only coalition forces, not Iraqi civillians) ..

Follow the "Cost of War" link to see just what $250,000,000,000 (yes, that's a real number) will buy you. One example, instead of war in Iraq, we could have provided 12 MILLION full, four-year scholarships at public Universities. I don't know how many Americans are in college. I don't know how many or how much financial aid they receive, but I bet an ADDITIONAL 12 MILLION scholarships could go a long way in keeping our country competitive in the future. The gap is closing (think China, India or Korea).

Is that news to anyone here? Well maybe this is. Looks like Bush's wars will break the half trillion mark by the end of this year. In order to help you conceptualize that number, let's break it down:

In order to make $450,000,000,000, a man working for 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year (2 weeks off for vacation) would have to work for 45 years and make FIVE MILLION ($5,000,000) an HOUR

According to Joseph Stiglitz, a Nobel-winning economist and Harvard budget expert, the cost of the war could be over $2 Trillion

and what did we get for all our efforts?

70% Unemployment rate in Iraq

What would happen in America if the unemployment went that high? Not only does it mean poverty, but it means poverty for former Baathist soldiers (we dispersed Saddam's 500,000 man army in 2003, remember?) with a lot of time on their hands.

Abuses Worse than under Hussein

You might say, well Saddam did this or Saddam did that! Guess what, amigos? I don't base my morality and principles by the worst of what the world has to offer, and neither should America. If you need to use a brutal tyrant to justify your actions, then i shouldn't even bother having this discussion.

Torture is wrong. It is not only morally reprehensible, but a strategical blunder as well. Torture does not work, unless by "work" you mean inspires hatred and fuels violent militant extremist movements. They don't even have to make their own propaganda, (WARNING** NOT WORK SAFE **) we do it for them. (WARNING** NOT WORK SAFE **)

Why should the Iraqis be complaining anyway? They are liberated.

Now, if only someone would deal with that lack of stable electricity (in a place with desert heat of greater than 112 F), lack of clean water, and living conditions that are worse than under Saddam.

What else would you expect when roughly half of reconstruction money is eaten away by the insurgency? That and the corruption (and more corruption)

But don't worry, we can leave, as George said,

our commanders on the ground have said that the security situation in Iraq is improving because the Iraqis are more capable of taking the fight.

Maybe he should have the Pentagon check his notes. A while ago, there was a great clip on the Daily Show (I highly recommend it) regarding the downgrading of two Iraqi battalions from level 1. Well, it turns out the last remaining level 1, as in the battalion is able to fight on its own; "level two" means it requires support from U.S. troops, has been downgraded. That's right, there are ZERO level 1 capable Iraqi battalions.

Pentagon: Iraqi Troops Downgraded

But don't take my word for it, just ask the troops on the ground what they think. (the answer is 3 out of 4 troops want to leave within 12 months)

As long as it makes us safer, right?

(excerpted from the above NYT article)

A new classified assessment by the Central Intelligence Agency says Iraq may prove to be an even more effective training ground for Islamic extremists than Afghanistan was in Al Qaeda's early days, because it is serving as a real-world laboratory for urban combat.

...

The officials said it made clear that the war was likely to produce a dangerous legacy by dispersing to other countries Iraqi and foreign combatants more adept and better organized than they were before the conflict.

...

The assessment had argued that Iraq, since the American invasion of 2003, had in many ways assumed the role played by Afghanistan during the rise of Al Qaeda during the 1980's and 1990's, as a magnet and a proving ground for Islamic extremists from Saudi Arabia and other Islamic countries.

...

The officials said the report spelled out how the urban nature of the war in Iraq was helping combatants learn how to carry out assassinations, kidnappings, car bombings and other kinds of attacks that were never a staple of the fighting in Afghanistan during the anti-Soviet campaigns of the 1980's. It was during that conflict, primarily rural and conventional, that the United States provided arms to Osama bin Laden and other militants, who later formed Al Qaeda.

(ps - take your "liberal media" garbage talking point elsewhere. these sources are respected institutions of journalism and they are only reporting what other sources such as CIA officials, the Pentagon or academic studies. in fact, any rebuttal that involves unsubstantiated, nebulous accusations about a "liberal conspiracy" will be disregarded. do not refute my something with nothing. because if nothing is all you got, then kindly sit back and shut the fuck up.)

:911:

 

[Suul]

I'm not going to read through all that, but as an American i have only one stance on the whole "Iraqi debate". They hate us and want to disrupt our lives as free people. Anyone that wants to disrupt my meaningless life, I want dead. I say Nuke the whole Middle East out of existence and be done with it already.
The End.

 

[rab]

:911: :neverforget:

Wow.

 

[zodium]

I'm not going to read through all that, but as an American i have only one stance on the whole "Iraqi debate". They hate us and want to disrupt our lives as free people. Anyone that wants to disrupt my meaningless life, I want dead. I say Nuke the whole Middle East out of existence and be done with it already.
The End.

 

[Allielyn]

wow, who would have thought the poll results would turn out to be so meaningful?

 

[dunbar]

My father-in-law has served in the marine corp for 30 years now. He fought in the first gulf war as well as the Iraqi war. As a colonel and aid to the top ranking marine commnader in Iraq duing the 2nd war, his job was to sift through data that media members will never be privy too. He has walked through torture rooms where people were fed through plastic chippers alive... feet first. He's viewed video tapes of women being raped, and babies being skinned alive while their parents were forced to watch. What was their crime? Being of the wrong religion as the governing body. Being labeled a criminal for being of the wrong muslim sect.

The similarities between Saddam and Hitler are quite fascinating. Seeing you have done so much research xanex, I would suggest looking into the comparison of the two. Between dreams of ruling the world, invading other countries, killing hundreds of thousands of their own people, both thinking that they were of a superior race, Hitler and Saddam are made from the same mold.

Would you be upset if the US governement gassed an entire state, say michigan, and killed 200,000 people? Saddam did to the kurds. People in America and europe would be horrified if that happened in their country. But if Saddam does it, its ok?

My father-in-law was there when they removed the concrete from the bottom of a warehouse floor. An informant had led them theri. They unearthed a mass grave containing between 5000 and 6000 people. They were all "political enemies" of Saddam. Civilized nations and governments do not partake in such activities. But was it ok for Saddam? Your fine with that?

There are some evils in the world that have to be destroyed. Saddam was one of them. Now I realize that conditions in Iraq right now are not very good. But its hard to restore electricity to people when suicide bombers are killing the guards and workers. Terrorists who work for the same groups that were responsible for the attack on the world trade towers and the 3000 americans that are dead there. Things will get better in Iraq. Once Saddam's trial is finally over and he is executed, things will get better. The suicide bombers have to run out of fanatics someday.

My father in law is proud of the job he did over there, and was glad to serve over there. With the evidence that he saw, he believes it was the right thing to do. Thats enough for me.


p.s As for you 'liberal talking points' some of them are accurate and are problems that need to be sorted out. There is alot of corruption in Iraq, security risks and concerns, and a general lack of order over there. Some things have worked well, some haven't. But don't ever bring up a point from the Daily show with john stewart. Making points from a mock news show in COMEDY CENTRAL invalidates any point you try to prove using their references.

 

[zodium]

My father-in-law has served in the marine corp for 30 years now. He fought in the first gulf war as well as the Iraqi war. As a colonel and aid to the top ranking marine commnader in Iraq duing the 2nd war, his job was to sift through data that media members will never be privy too. He has walked through torture rooms where people were fed through plastic chippers alive... feet first. He's viewed video tapes of women being raped, and babies being skinned alive while their parents were forced to watch. What was their crime? Being of the wrong religion as the governing body. Being labeled a criminal for being of the wrong muslim sect.

The similarities between Saddam and Hitler are quite fascinating. Seeing you have done so much research xanex, I would suggest looking into the comparison of the two. Between dreams of ruling the world, invading other countries, killing hundreds of thousands of their own people, both thinking that they were of a superior race, Hitler and Saddam are made from the same mold.

Would you be upset if the US governement gassed an entire state, say michigan, and killed 200,000 people? Saddam did to the kurds. People in America and europe would be horrified if that happened in their country. But if Saddam does it, its ok?

My father-in-law was there when they removed the concrete from the bottom of a warehouse floor. An informant had led them theri. They unearthed a mass grave containing between 5000 and 6000 people. They were all "political enemies" of Saddam. Civilized nations and governments do not partake in such activities. But was it ok for Saddam? Your fine with that?

There are some evils in the world that have to be destroyed. Saddam was one of them. Now I realize that conditions in Iraq right now are not very good. But its hard to restore electricity to people when suicide bombers are killing the guards and workers. Terrorists who work for the same groups that were responsible for the attack on the world trade towers and the 3000 americans that are dead there. Things will get better in Iraq. Once Saddam's trial is finally over and he is executed, things will get better. The suicide bombers have to run out of fanatics someday.

My father in law is proud of the job he did over there, and was glad to serve over there. With the evidence that he saw, he believes it was the right thing to do. Thats enough for me.


p.s As for you 'liberal talking points' some of them are accurate and are problems that need to be sorted out. There is alot of corruption in Iraq, security risks and concerns, and a general lack of order over there. Some things have worked well, some haven't. But don't ever bring up a point from the Daily show with john stewart. Making points from a mock news show in COMEDY CENTRAL invalidates any point you try to prove using their references.

I invoke Godwin's Law and declare the discussion over.

The topic has been debated to hell and back and honestly, go somewhere else if you want to talk about it.