Exodus doesn't work 100% of the time as intended as any player can attest to who has tried to use it to escape a deadly situation. My suggestion is, since it is a long cooldown and it is disheartening to not have it drop aggro, to make it foolproof. A couple ways I can think of are making it give you a one tick DA that clears aggro on fading, or just having it feign death the group.
Exodus
- Thread starter Wealwawn
- Start date
You regain aggro when a DoT, pet or other thing hits the mobs after you evacuated. None of those options will stop that from reaggroing you. We could have it zone you out to another zone, then back in at safe point but that will a double zone time to the exodus
Alternatively we could make all spells end on your target if the player is evacuated but I am not sure how realistic that is for the code team.
Alternatively we could make all spells end on your target if the player is evacuated but I am not sure how realistic that is for the code team.
donfolstar3
Dalayan Master
Seems like a small price to pay for it to work right.
Such was once the case with /cm refresh, but now it works just fine without any "middleman" zone. (Though I'm still unsure what all that fainting business is about!) Could that not be applied to evac mechanics?
Still, it would be best if there were some way that did not involve forcing the player to zone.
The fd option should be fine. I fd all the time after dotting mobs. Long as i stay down till the dot wears off im good (nonroamers). Forcing two zones on an exodus sounds heavy handed. Could add a stun to the fd forcing people to stay down while any dots wear off. Stun length matching owners remaining dot length would be elite.
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Vitali
Dalayan Master
I know in live they ended up just making succor and exodus type spells rezone you only the place you just were. I guess you already mentioned it, but just have succor and exodus zone players into the refresh zone, then back into wherever they were fighting (entrance of course) if it is possible.
Exodus is hit or miss with me. It clears aggro sometimes. Even when I have no pet/ dot on the mobs. I think that if you exodus on the "server tick" when a mob would summon, it would just summon you back as well. I wouldn't mind the refresh thing myself for exodus, but if it was the choice between them both having zone time or exodus remaining as it is and regular evac as it is I would rather have it that way. Evac is great for travel time.
Well - Proof of concept shows we can have it clear aggro without zoning you. The question is do we want an instant oh shit button that is nearly fool proof. If I remember right Live had it have a percentage to fail per person - which is just horrible and too random.
Perhaps a short (5-6 second?) cast time? I am unsure. We are talking about it in staff.
Edit: Alternatively having it hurt your groups mana may be enough to keep it from being abused near zone in. Or having it only work if you are 600 feet away from safe point like live did.
Perhaps a short (5-6 second?) cast time? I am unsure. We are talking about it in staff.
Edit: Alternatively having it hurt your groups mana may be enough to keep it from being abused near zone in. Or having it only work if you are 600 feet away from safe point like live did.
I cannot even fathom why you would add a cast time to it. Additionally in a lot of dangerous exp 5-6 seconds is long enough for most of the group to be dead in a wipe scenario. I personally avoid using exodus as it is because most of the time it just complicates things by having some people not have aggro clear and dying where we were fighting with others living.
Zapple
Dalayan Elder
Well I guess you have to decide whether the ability being a cool class thing you may want to take someone along for (sort of like but different to how you'd take a monk with an urn or a necromancer to wipe recover) working as advertised is what you want, or whether you feel the need to include some terrible classic EQ "The Vision" sadism element to it if/when you fix it to clear aggro. Making it have an enormous cast time would make it near useless to do what it's supposed to be used for: Seeing you're going to wipe and preventing it at the cost of progress in possible progress through a dungeon or whatever. A good example is if you hit it in say, emberflow, chances are you're re-clearing.
You don't have to add a shitty side effect to everything. It's not like there aren't concessions to make the game less of a chore to play than classic EQ was elsewhere in this game, like for example corpse runs don't exist and neither does de-leveling. And I can't really think of any way to abuse this to gain anything, really. All evac spells should ideally clear targets from the hate list if possible. The draw of the AA versions is really supposed to be that they are near instant and cost no mana but have a significant reuse time.
You don't have to add a shitty side effect to everything. It's not like there aren't concessions to make the game less of a chore to play than classic EQ was elsewhere in this game, like for example corpse runs don't exist and neither does de-leveling. And I can't really think of any way to abuse this to gain anything, really. All evac spells should ideally clear targets from the hate list if possible. The draw of the AA versions is really supposed to be that they are near instant and cost no mana but have a significant reuse time.
The idea of a instant cast, no downsides aggro clearing port spell has never been a part of SoD. When wiz first attempted to make it clear aggro he was going to put in large mana wipes or death effects. The only reason nothing has been done to the spell is that he never did get it to work.
Now we can make it work. The ability to instantly reset a dungeon for your entire group would be an incredible boon for wizards and druids. SoD already has much, much, much less death penalty than live did or does. Even with that live had a 1/10 chance or w/e that a member would be left behind to die. Further, the vast majority of dungeons in SoD are not designed as dungeon crawls like they were in live. Being ported to the zone in is not much of a problem except in a handful of zones.
The point is not a tit for tat new ability = penalty. The point is keeping risk versus reward. This sort of new ability for druids and wizards would change the risk inherent in a vast swathe of situations in game. That is not to say that it should not happen - but it is definitely a good argument that it should be thought through and not just put in "because live had a something like that".
This is not to mention class balance. Changes like this increase incentives to take one class over another of its archetype in groups.
So yeah. You can feel free to continue on the whole "hey man just let us have it its fun" tact but taking balance issues seriously is the staffs job and that is what we do.
So my original statement stands. I am not sure if Exodus as is but with clear aggro is what we want. Especially given the power of druids in the healer realm and wizards in the dps realm. So is there a good middle ground or should we not do it at all? Or is there an argument that the increased functionality of no downside is warranted - in which case you better make a more salient argument than the last two posts.
Now we can make it work. The ability to instantly reset a dungeon for your entire group would be an incredible boon for wizards and druids. SoD already has much, much, much less death penalty than live did or does. Even with that live had a 1/10 chance or w/e that a member would be left behind to die. Further, the vast majority of dungeons in SoD are not designed as dungeon crawls like they were in live. Being ported to the zone in is not much of a problem except in a handful of zones.
The point is not a tit for tat new ability = penalty. The point is keeping risk versus reward. This sort of new ability for druids and wizards would change the risk inherent in a vast swathe of situations in game. That is not to say that it should not happen - but it is definitely a good argument that it should be thought through and not just put in "because live had a something like that".
This is not to mention class balance. Changes like this increase incentives to take one class over another of its archetype in groups.
So yeah. You can feel free to continue on the whole "hey man just let us have it its fun" tact but taking balance issues seriously is the staffs job and that is what we do.
So my original statement stands. I am not sure if Exodus as is but with clear aggro is what we want. Especially given the power of druids in the healer realm and wizards in the dps realm. So is there a good middle ground or should we not do it at all? Or is there an argument that the increased functionality of no downside is warranted - in which case you better make a more salient argument than the last two posts.
Zapple
Dalayan Elder
Ok but I mean this basically already exists, it just randomly works or doesn't work probably because it's buggy. It's not like it would be a new ability. It would just be basically working as advertised.
It's more a convenience thing. It's not like you really "lose" anything by wiping most dungeon groups anyway. If you want to go back, you just wait 4-5 minutes and go back. People already soulbond important buffs and aren't losing much by just porting as close to where they need to go and going back anyway. I don't see where any supposed risk vs reward is even involved in this. You lose a few minutes of experience from killing monsters at most if you wipe, and maybe a bit of travel time. I highly doubt anyone would specifically make groups with druids or wizards in them but it would just be a nice bonus if you had one in your group and a really bad pull that would otherwise wipe you happened.
Yes this is basically the argument. It's not like it would be some massive gain for wizards and druids. How things currently are people just mad dash to the zone exit after an evac/exodus anyway incase it didn't clear you off mob's hate list. If anything it would just be a bugfix. I can't see any real balance issue here.
It's more a convenience thing. It's not like you really "lose" anything by wiping most dungeon groups anyway. If you want to go back, you just wait 4-5 minutes and go back. People already soulbond important buffs and aren't losing much by just porting as close to where they need to go and going back anyway. I don't see where any supposed risk vs reward is even involved in this. You lose a few minutes of experience from killing monsters at most if you wipe, and maybe a bit of travel time. I highly doubt anyone would specifically make groups with druids or wizards in them but it would just be a nice bonus if you had one in your group and a really bad pull that would otherwise wipe you happened.
Yes this is basically the argument. It's not like it would be some massive gain for wizards and druids. How things currently are people just mad dash to the zone exit after an evac/exodus anyway incase it didn't clear you off mob's hate list. If anything it would just be a bugfix. I can't see any real balance issue here.
Furthermore, no one is going to take a druid/wizard over say cleric/ranger because they can use Exodus and clear aggro 100% of the time once an hour. They are going to take them for the other reasons you'd pick those classes one of which would be that those classes get a spell called Succor, although I can not think of anytime Succor/Exodus was ever used to weigh group make up outside of moving a full 3 group raid across zones.
Normal evacuate with the quick evacuate line of AAs currently takes 4.5 seconds to cast as well so I think most people would just use the evacuate spell instead of exodus if it took 5-6 seconds to cast.
Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
I agree with woldaff and there should be a drawback to using the spell. Having a reset button should have some drawback to it.
You just escaped death by using your reset button and saved yourself the time of loading buff bots, and running back to the dungeon you were farming.
A mana drain to the party and some form of stun doesnt seem like that big of a trade off.
edit: also having an instant reset button is pretty powerful. giving it a 5 second cast time basically gives the person casting it more pressure.... should i cast a heal and maybe save the person or should i cast exodus and for sure save everyone.
You just escaped death by using your reset button and saved yourself the time of loading buff bots, and running back to the dungeon you were farming.
A mana drain to the party and some form of stun doesnt seem like that big of a trade off.
edit: also having an instant reset button is pretty powerful. giving it a 5 second cast time basically gives the person casting it more pressure.... should i cast a heal and maybe save the person or should i cast exodus and for sure save everyone.
Unless you are a wizard.
Exodus being quick reset should have a small detriment to it for being instant cast 0 agro. But im not sure mana drain is the way to go. 10 second stun/snare maybe instead? Or just make it like 3 second cast time instead of 5 seconds.
Edit: Or make the AA evac just that, make it just a normal evac. The benefit: Similar to necro AA fd saves a spell gem.
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Nebi
Dalayan Pious Diety
well take it upon yourself to decide if you pulled too many mobs and cast your save us button.