Embedding Darkness, not an upgrade...

S

Snake

Dalayan Elder
Ok first off some info on Embedding Darkness and Devouring Darkness...

Devouring Darkness, level 57 Necromancer spell:
Mana: 400.
Casttime: 4.0 seconds.
Resist Adjustment: 0.
Snare effect: 75% (at 65).
Duration: 78 seconds (13 ticks).
Total Damage: 1599.
Damage per tick: 123.
Damage per Mana: ~4,0.

Embedding Darkness, level 64 Necromancer spell:
Mana: 425.
Casttime: 4.0 seconds.
Resist Adjustment: 0.
Snare effect: 75% (at 65).
Duration: 144 seconds (24 ticks).
Total Damage: 1440.
Damage per tick: 60.
Damage per Mana: ~3,4.

Embedding Darkness is worse DPS and DPM, the DPS is down right horrible (even for a Darkness spell). Though the duration is very long, so perhaps its meant for longer fights, kiting, but if I'm gonna do a long fight, i might as well make my mana count, and do the better dps spell (also i lose less mana when resisted).
I would like a more reliable Darkness spell, like this one is on live. This is what it looks like on Live (the upgrade to Devouring Darkness)...

Embracing Darkness, level 63 Necromancer spell (on live):
Mana: 200.
Casttime: 3.2 seconds.
Resist Adjustment: -20 (magic).
Snare effect: 75%.
Duration: 120 seconds (20 ticks).
Total Damage: 1400.
Damage per tick: 70 (at lvl 65).
Damage per Mana: 7.

Ok first off, I'm not saying this is the exact upgrade i want, but it is something like this that would make for a good upgrade.
The two most important factors in my opinion is, less mana, and harder to resist. These two factors makes it usable in groups, where i have to snare a lot of monsters (if it is necessary), and i sure don't have mana for both my DPS spells (roughly 500 mana per cast) and a 425 mana snare. Also my Darkness is my most resisted DoT over all, sure my poison and disease DoT's get resisted a lot too, but when i use those, i make sure i land a Scent first (lowers Disease, Poison and Fire resist).

I hope you developers to look in to this, cause as it is, this spell is not an upgrade, at best a specialized spell for few situations.

Zake
 
I haven't played a necro very much on this server, but just from a quick glance at the info you posted, the second spell has a much longer duration, making it so you only have to snare once during a battle (solo) and will not have to worry about it breaking. This spell does not look like it is used for its dps, but rather, mostly just the snare component. Being able to cast snare once at the beginning and not worrying about it later is pretty nice.
 
Not sure how to explain it better than i just did, but its not a great spell.

I usually never worry to much about my Darkness breaking, as i dont have many fights last longer than 1 minut (or 78 seconds for that matter).

Also i have a good feeling if my Darkness is about to run out. I did for some time have 2 Darkness spells memorized, my level 12 one (for fast cast time, when my big one got resisted) and the Devouring Darkness. This might give you an idea what the real problem is, resist, heavy on mana and slow cast time.

The guys on live saw that, when they made there upgrade, based on many player input im sure.

Zake
 
Snake said:
But sure, longer duration > short duration... but not at any cost.

Zake
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Many "upgrades" in SoD are situational upgrades (gear included, ie tanking/dps gear). There are very few spells that are "strictly better" than other spells. Resist adjusts, recasts, duration, mana cost, reuse timers, etc. all have to be taken into account. Even wizards' relic is "worse" than their ancient nuke, but since it is better burst dps and fire instead of ice, it definitely has its uses. You just have to know when you need to mem it or when you need to mem the lower level one instead.
 
This spell never stroke me as useless. I always use it when soloing and I never had to worry about my DPS and tbh - using the other one might be more DPS but having to resnare midfights is not too much fun. Those should be untouched.
 
Spiritplx said:
Even wizards' relic is "worse" than their ancient nuke, but since it is better burst dps and fire instead of ice, it definitely has its uses.
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That is why it is really wierd that this DoT with such long duration, has so bad DPM. Usually a DoT with really long duration, has good DPM because its not very likely to deliver its payload.

I only think your argument strengthens my point that this spell needs looking in to.

Zake
 
Manluas said:
This spell never stroke me as useless. I always use it when soloing and I never had to worry about my DPS and tbh - using the other one might be more DPS but having to resnare midfights is not too much fun. Those should be untouched.
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Well i guess you dont care much when you have almost 8k mana, mana conservation 6 and all your relic spells to do damage for you heh.

I strugle to keep Cyc spawn down for example, so i don't have the luxery of using this spell, as its a waste of mana for me (have yet to find my self wishing i had it memorized).

When i get 4 resists in a row, i might as well FD and try again (when soloing). In groups i never mem Darkness, do you? If you had the live one, 200 mana, less resisted, no damage but so what, its snared, and easier to deal with, im sure you would suddently find your self using it in groups as well.

I do agree it should remain a long duration low damage snare. What i think should be changed, is mana cost and resist adjustment. In a perfect world it would be faster cast as well, but thats not as important as the two other factors.

Shave off 125 mana, and lower the reisist check by 20, and it would be golden imo.

Zake
 
Back before I joined a raiding guild, back when I was pushing to try and break 4k mana, I discovered that I could kite dragons in WW for good exp or Harthuk Lords for some cash. At 63 this was possible, but what killed me the most, was when snare ran out. I didn't have the gear to survive long enough to get another long casting darkness spell off.

I hit 64, and all of a sudden, my snare duration lasts twice as long. The only mob i ever had to resnare were the Crystal Wyrms, but those things have fairly ridiculous hit points. Now some people may be able to track their DoTs better then me; I bet most serious people use timers so its never a problem. But I never used the 'better' dot again.These days I don't even bother with darkness, as it is mana inefficent, and I'm usually better off fettering the mob and cooking him that way in most all cases.

Would increasing the damage of embedding be damaging to the spell and its intent? Probably not.
Would shrinking its duration appropriately with the damage increase be damaging to the spell and its intent? I'd argue yes.

It's kinda like how deflux is on some levels better than touch of night, even though its a lower level spell; its other properties make it situationally more useful. Taking away options and versatility options is not something I think should be done.

-Tyrsell
 
Zaknafean said:
Would increasing the damage of embedding be damaging to the spell and its intent? Probably not.
Would shrinking its duration appropriately with the damage increase be damaging to the spell and its intent? I'd argue yes.
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I some what agree, but i think generaly the Darkness series is so bad resist and dpm wise, that an other one more of those types of spells wont help anything. The reason i use Devouring Darkness over all the lower level Darkness spells, is the fact that this is the first Darkness spell that snares 75%, and it is not much more expensive than the level 49 one.

I am 110% sure, that if Engulfing Darkness (level 12 spell) had its snare % upped to 75% (this is not a wish, just an example), EVERY necro (and probably SK's too) would use this spell for snare. Even with its low duration, who cares... it snares 75% , super fast cast, no mana cost... I really cast Darkness for one reason, i want the mob to move slow, really slow.

Zake
 
Wiz said:
Will have damage / tick upped to 70.
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I interpretate this as a statement from Wiz, that a long duration snare is a powerful weapon in the Necromancers arsenal, and that he will not lower its mana cost or resist adjustment for this reason.

I guess upping the damage a little might make it somewhat more desirable, but i doubt ill use it still.

Thanks for listening though, I'm not ungrateful, just stubborn disappointed :)

Zake
 
Just wanna sum up how these spells compare once Embedding Darkness is changed:

Devouring Darkness, level 57 Necromancer spell:
Mana: 400.
Casttime: 4.0 seconds.
Resist Adjustment: 0.
Snare effect: 75% (at 65).
Duration: 78 seconds (13 ticks).
Total Damage: 1599.
Damage per tick: 123.
Damage per Mana: ~4,0 (3,9975).

Embedding Darkness, level 64 Necromancer spell:
Mana: 425.
Casttime: 4.0 seconds.
Resist Adjustment: 0.
Snare effect: 75% (at 65).
Duration: 144 seconds (24 ticks).
Total Damage: 1680.
Damage per tick: 70.
Damage per Mana: ~3.95 (3,9529).

Almost identical DPM, if both run full time.

Zake
 
Snake said:
I interpretate this as a statement from Wiz, that a long duration snare is a powerful weapon in the Necromancers arsenal, and that he will not lower its mana cost or resist adjustment for this reason.

I guess upping the damage a little might make it somewhat more desirable, but i doubt ill use it still.

Thanks for listening though, I'm not ungrateful, just stubborn disappointed :)

Zake
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I would say that a 10 damage increase per tick to a spell that lasts almost 2.5 minutes is actually a pretty substantial upgrade. You are too concerned with the damage per mana ratio than you are with the long duration snare on this spell. I really think you are undervaluing this spell quite a bit.
 
Spiritplx said:
I would say that a 10 damage increase per tick to a spell that lasts almost 2.5 minutes is actually a pretty substantial upgrade. You are too concerned with the damage per mana ratio than you are with the long duration snare on this spell. I really think you are undervaluing this spell quite a bit.
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If you read my posts above, you would see that i did not think the fix would be to add more damage, but to make it less mana and harder to resist. That is also why i interpretate Wiz change to the spell as i do.
For all i care id take a Druid snare, but that would be way to unbalanced, mezz and damage free snare hehheh (not to mention charm)... So you see, this spell is not about damage, its about snaring, in my opinion.

Zake
 
Snake said:
If you read my posts above, you would see that i did not think the fix would be to add more damage, but to make it less mana and harder to resist. That is also why i interpretate Wiz change to the spell as i do.
For all i care id take a Druid snare, but that would be way to unbalanced, mezz and damage free snare hehheh (not to mention charm)... So you see, this spell is not about damage, its about snaring, in my opinion.

Zake
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Yes, and as a snare, the spell is really good. Anything added to this spell just makes it better. You had mentioned damage per mana several times, so I thought you were more hung up about that aspect, but apparently i was confused.
 
Embedding Darkness should do more damage than it currently does. Damage will be upped.
 
Spiritplx said:
Yes, and as a snare, the spell is really good. Anything added to this spell just makes it better. You had mentioned damage per mana several times, so I thought you were more hung up about that aspect, but apparently i was confused.
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As a snare its not really good, its 425 mana and often resisted. Id say with a damage increase, it is at best useable.

Zake
 
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