Discussion: Shaman Cannibalize

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Wiz

Wiz

NOT DONATING *EVER*
I'm considering a change to the shaman Cannibalize line in the future to make it similar to the Lich line (This would not affect the Cannibalization AA). The mana regained would be roughly on terms with Lich.

I would like to hear comments, especially from Shamans, wheter this is a bad, good, wonderful or terrible idea. Please no "YOU JUST WANT TO NERF US OH GOD". This is only an idea I'm playing around with, the reasons would be to get away from the entire cannidancing and to balance mana regen (JB + Canni IV + Cannibalization is kinda whoa)
 
Shaman's Canni

As far as I'm concerned, it'd be a godsend.

A couple of facts: My shaman is currently level 52. Meaning I am still using Canni 2, so maybe I don't understand quite how great canni can be at the higher levels.

But -- since I double box monk / shaman, it's hard for me to run monk pulling, and do shaman's canni. I end up not being as efficient as I *could* if my chars were run by two seperate people. For Double boxers, I'm willing to say this would be better in the long run.

The significant advantage it would take away, is the access to mana on demand. A shammy can canni up enough mana for a heal in like 15-20 seconds. With this change, that wouldn't be the case.
 
I don't have a shammy on WR yet, but I do have a 47 shaman on live, if that helps. My typical method to get around the canni-dance was to use an auto-fire program (also used with my ranger for archery auto-attack), and try to divide my attention enough between my ranger & shaman that I didn't kill myself with it. :)

Anyway the line seems to have two main advantages, which should be preserved to some extent:

1. Siphons excess hp regen into mana, thus increasing overall efficiency
2. Gives a sort of 'reserve tank' of mana, at fairly short notice, with some added risk attached (ie: death from low-health-aggro, stray attacks, etc).

Switching to the Lich model would work for #1, but not so much for #2. This could be addressed by leaving one of the canni spells in (preferably one of the higher level ones that transfers lots of hp to mp at a time), or by making a version of Lich with greatly accelerated hp to mp (along the line of the cleric heal-over-time spells, perhaps).

With that said, it would be nice to have the added convenience of not having to canni-dance, so I could see perhaps a small decrease in the hp to mana ratio. It shouldn't be such a departure from canni, however, as to lower the overall effectiveness of the class. Also, a cool illusion while the effect is in place would be nice... something other than skellies & spectres tho. Perhaps one the 'spirit' models that's in the game currently... particularly a spirit animal of some sort.
 
This is a horrible idea, it not only takes away from the lore of a shaman, it makes us just like a gimp necro, I usually have JB on, and I do have Canni 5.

The mana regen is of course better than a normal char with JB, but thats what shamans are known for...mana on demand, I dont think the combo of JB and Canni 5 are over powered.
 
It takes away from the lore of the shaman? You mean they're supposedly known for taking large mouthfuls :?

Anyways, I never really thought shaman mana regen was a problem. They use a lot of mana buffing, their major damage comes from DoTs (their nukes are sub-par) and their heals, while good, are just spams and not the best. I always figured that the shaman's mana regen was balanced by the fact that they had to canni all the time.

Then again, maybe I'm wrong.
 
This would be a negative change in all respects. The shaman class is one of the most well balanced Class's in the game, youhave said so yourself Wiz. The cannibalize line is entirely a class specific trait. To make this similar to a lich spell will not change how the shaman functions balance wise for the benefit of the server, it will only create more trouble for a nigh perfected class. Not only this , it will blend the class distinction more towards a healing necro. I can think of many other class balance issues that would logically be higher on the list to alter than shamans cannibalize line. Also think of the effect to cleric/wiz with the canni worms, the cost of constantly clicking to regain mana is more of a hinderance to multi tasking a character than a benefit, to make this a passive gain would allow more focus on other abilities. If canni+canniV+ JB<read as alot of work in aa and spell finding> = too much mana regen, than what is the ideal high end mana regen rate you are seeking to balance towards? How do other class's balance into this equation with their current abilities they bring to the table? How will this affect lower level shamans and their groups/solo? Over all I cannot stand more firmly behind preserving the cannibalize line as it currently stands.
 
Voice of the two boxing newb shaman here, only level 33. Basically for me I have a lot of problems being able to pull, tank, and keep canni'ing using Canni I... so if it was a gradual over time shift between mana and health it would make things easier for me I believe, just in the sense that I can med and have it going at the same time. But... I don't know anything about upper lev class balance and any of that. Not having to spam cast Canni would certainly be nice for my 2-boxxing needs though, but I really don't know jack.
 
The more I hear from others, the less I like the idea of simply swapping Canni with Lich, but I still like the idea of Canni-over-time spells modeled after the cleric Heal-over-Time line (IE: you cast it and it goes for 4 ticks for a large chunk of hp>mp each tick). It eliminates some of the tedium, doesn't go on for so long that shamans are likely to misjudge and kill themselves with it (though you could click it off anyway in such a case), and wouldn't do all that much to change the flavor of the spells. If the goal is to tweak the amount of mana regen shamans can achieve, some shamans might be ok with a bit worse mp>hp ratio in exchange for the added convenience. I'd be interested to see how such a change would work out. I know my cleric warmed up to his HoT's quickly, to the point of using them almost exclusively when CH wasn't needed. Canni-over-time might just win over shamans as well.

Note: the only problem that comes to mind is how the cleric HoT's take up a buff slot, which normal canni doesn't... not sure how much of an issue that is with raids on this server. It wouldn't be much of an issue otherwise, of course. Anyway, it's probably balanced out by the fact that you'd get 3 ticks of automatic canni where you're free to cast other spells.
 
BitHead0023 said:
Note: the only problem that comes to mind is how the cleric HoT's take up a buff slot, which normal canni doesn't... not sure how much of an issue that is with raids on this server. It wouldn't be much of an issue otherwise, of course. Anyway, it's probably balanced out by the fact that you'd get 3 ticks of automatic canni where you're free to cast other spells.
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From what I'm seeing, that's the entire point. To make Canni take a buff slot and therefor not stack with Clarity, KEI, JB, etc, because Lich already does.

But, oh god, we can't nerf the precious dual clienters.
 
This is a change that would clearly benefit DCing shamans at the expense of singleclient shamans, who can more easily cannibalize. I guess the question is, do you feel shamans are overpowered? If you feel that shamans are overpowered, then do this change to balance it. I dont think that shamans are overpowered on this server at all though.

I guess waht it comes down to is, since no shamans were asking for this change that I know of, what benefits will the server gain as a whole if you change this? DCing a shaman will become easier(since most DC shamans dont cannibalize much at all) and most singleclient shamans will have their effectiveness reduced. Doesnt sound like something that would benefit the server as a whole.
 
As a shaman, who lacks cann5, during most exp groups where we actually do mobs that are worth while (lvl 55+) even w/ jb I have to canni nonstop to keep up with my group. This is taking in the fact that I dont have a super tank or super cleric who can keep up with the group. The amount of own a few lvls can give a mob on this server just doesnt allow me to be in a group w/ out the best tanks and/or best clerics and be able to keep the group killing mobs uninterrupted for mana breaks.


However when I group with a tank and cleric who have great gear and aa mana isnt a problem. I can dot nonstop and still keep my mana pretty high at 70% + for emergancies.
 
It was basically just an idea. I'll scrap it. POSSIBLY short-duration canni, but unlikely.
 
Re: Shaman's Canni

Anadin said:
As far as I'm concerned, it'd be a godsend.

A couple of facts: My shaman is currently level 52. Meaning I am still using Canni 2, so maybe I don't understand quite how great canni can be at the higher levels.

But -- since I double box monk / shaman, it's hard for me to run monk pulling, and do shaman's canni. I end up not being as efficient as I *could* if my chars were run by two seperate people. For Double boxers, I'm willing to say this would be better in the long run.

The significant advantage it would take away, is the access to mana on demand. A shammy can canni up enough mana for a heal in like 15-20 seconds. With this change, that wouldn't be the case.
Click to expand...

You just made the most compelling argument to not do it without knowing it.
 
But, oh god, we can't nerf the precious dual clienters.
Click to expand...


And because they dual client they deserve to be nerfed?


I don't like changes to things that arent clear and present problems, including this. On my shaman canni wasn't even worth using until I got canni 4 and even then it's click, click, click, click. As a dual clienter running an exp cycle stopping every so often to canni heal canni ect causes a lot of downtime. Plain old KEI on the shaman usually does more to cut down the down time then canni spells.

The only time I felt canni was useful to dual clienting is after you slog through the aa's and get aa cannibalize where every 3 minutes you can basically refill 3/4 your mana with a (slumber -> aa canni -> (canni 4 x 5)) progression. By then they've earned it.

Every caster class can have a mana surplus once they meet certain conditions. Unless more new spells are introduced to go along with harder areas added with tot the mana surplus will continue to grow.
 
lol.

Yea, Melwin, incase you didn't notice yet, I kind of post like the 18 year old idiot I am. I'm much more coherent and sensical in person, I swear.
 
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