Damage Dealing Melee

[Shevek]

Hi guys. Im new to the server and have been perusing the forums when I stumbled upon this:

1) Rogues have always been the highest on the melee DPS. And they always should be, as this is the only ability we can bring to a normal EXP group. However, In parsing a small raid log, Monks are outdamaging rogues 50% of the time, and getting within 5-10 DPS the other 50% of the time. This is simply unbalanced, due to their higher ability to tank mobs, FD, Mend. The monk already brings the superior pulling ability to the group, there is no way they should come within 15 DPS of a rogue. Since us rogues are now backstabbing the same as live, possibly adding double backstab will clear this problem up easily.

I am curious, what is the target DPS breakdown ratio wise? What percentage of a Rogue's DPS will the Monk have? How about Ranger archery? Also, does everything have to balanced by damage? One thing I liked about what they tried to do with Rogues on live was the aspect of poison use. Why not give the rogues greater utility by better fleshing out that aspect of the class? Maybe you can make all components cheaper and all purchasable from merchants (perhaps after some rebalancing - can a level limit be put on poisons instead of tradeskills for use/creation?). This way you can keep the classes comparable in damage and not have to worry about this arms race mentality (since the rogue would have a limited utility due to his poisons which he would use more often and the monk could FD pull/mend). Also, maybe this would make the class a bit more interesting and create a decent money sink. I dunno, just a random idea I guess.

 

[Foma]

Poison

Umm, on Live, rogue poison stank to high heaven. My main was a 65 rogue who was a GrandMaster in poison. I *really* hope WR does nothing of the sort, with regard to making poisoning the way it was on Live.

One of the most comical, and yet accurate, names for a high-end poison was "Bixie Sting". It did a miniscule dmg proc when it wasn't resisted flat out. Get this, I parsed the dmg logs once with this poison used all night, and it added about 1 or 2 dps =). Pathetic. Moreover, even with some *very* good tanks with impressive agro-creatin' weps, if I proc'd more than, oh...say 2 times in a fight, I got agro *hard*. From that puny Bixie Sting.

Please, go nowhere near live on this, heh.

Oh, and let's not even go into the 'money sink' part of it. Most already know about that, heh.
-------------
Zonama - CLR
Brianna - MNK
Chukkorek - NEC
Aabumen - ENC
Skyy - MAG
Itso - BRD
Shinzon - SHD

 

[Shevek]

Hmm, root/slows, fast dots, snares, mana drains, dd/stuns, and debuffs all make some some pretty potent utility if you ask me. Yes, bixie sting might not be all that but what about some of those fairly decent snares that last 6 minutes (like Lethargic bliss - 60% snare)? How about the root/50%slow (Spine break)? How about the dd/stun poisons you can use when fighting casting mobs? Why are you reducing the discussion to this rather boring discussion on DPS when that isnt the sole means to judge every aspect of the game? A rogue using those kinds of backup tools (to help in key slots missing in group or when soloing) seems infinitiely more attractive to me than one that exists solely to do damage. As for the money sink part - the admins have expressed a want to create money sinks in the game to make plat meaningful.

 

[Phelios]

With poison, I might actually consider playing a rogue >) sounds fun. I do so terribly love poison... (though I never played a rogue on live).

 

[Foma]

Fine. Y'all enjoy the poisoning if they go the route that Live did. Semi pointless discussion until we see what WR does with it tho.

To be clear on one point, tho - I like poisons. Think its a hot idea, perfect for rogues. Just not the way it was done on live. Sure a snare or slow is usefull. It's *not* usefull to pay a dozen plat and/or farm for a few hours to get a few single casts of a poison that has every chance of being resisted, and (pre-PoP) had but a single chance to even hit - the first hit only.

But again, wait and see what WR offers. There's a lot you can add to rogues.

 

[WazeekWazoo]

First off.. About the DPS topic.. Yes, it IS used as a huge influence on class balance.. Especially for rogues and monks. Because... You create a group, you have a Tank, A cleric, An Enc.. What do you need? A damage dealer. If monks and rogues are at the same DPS, who would you choose? The monk.. because he can FD (which right now is WAY more usefull than Evade to get rid of aggro), he can Mend in the middle of a hectic fight saving the cleric that heal for someone else, AND he can almost ensure the safety of the group by single pulling. The way it is now, why on earth would anyone even want a rogue over a monk?

As for poison.. Yes, it is a fun idea.. but that is all it is.. novelty. It doesn't alter DPS, nor will it. The 555DD+Stun poisons were hard to get supplies for, and very expensive. Let's say you DO get this poison made.. You can only poison your blade before the fight.. And 555 is a backstab.. SO basically, you wasted time and plat for 1 extra backstab per fight. Hardly worth it.

Now, if poisons were made even MORE powerfu on WR, then this would make rogues PvP ability far superior and unbalanced. And to deny a rogue the poison ability in PvP is denying a major part of the lore of a rogue.

So, let's say all the slows/snares/dot poisons were implemented, as they were on live. The ONLY use you will have for these poisons, will be soloing (good luck doing that past 40), and PvP. These type of spells give WAY too much aggro on WR to be used effectively in a group. I don't know if you played rogue on live, but it works like this.. You apply poison to your blade.. Your VERY next attack (or very close to it) determines if the poison lands or not. If you land a slow on a mob at 95-100% health.. You are going to die.

Not only that, but with the 61-65 patch, spell resists were upped A LOT. My offhand dagger would rarely get resisted, and even more rarely partially resisted.. Now, my offhand dagger is almost useless as the proc gets resisted or partial 75% of the time.. So, with your poisons, if your LUCKY, you will land maybe half of them.

So anyway.. like I said.. its novelty, and PVP only.

So far.. on WR. There is only 1 thing that rogues are useful for, other then DPS.. That is our ability to scout. On live, almost all dragons would see through sneak/hide, and lvl 65+ mobs would see through as well. So if you wanted to go see if Kael king or AoW was up, or check out Ntov.. you couldn't. Here on WR, I haven't found anything that sees through it, with the exception of GM spawned characters.

 

[Shevek]

Cant the resistability of a given spell affect be altered? Why does the DPS given by X poison have to be the sole determinant of its usefulness? Sure, as it stands rogues now chiefly do only one thing but why force yourself into that design box? That DDstun may not do much damage but it DOES stun. Also, cant the hate generated by X poison be altered as well? Why would snares only be useful when soloing? Who is to say that is poisons in PvM would have to work that same way or at all in PvP? Sks, Necros, Chanters and other classes do not have all their spell lines working (either the same or at all) in both PvM and PvP and that is considered perfectly acceptable.

I am well aware that poisons on live were largely a novelty but this is why I recommended some changes (chiefly with cost and ingredient availability but certainly resist rate and hate generation if you suggest). Im sorry if these questions are a bit obvious but since it seems if Wiz is able to craft new spells, I had assumed he would have some control over these key aspects over a poison's effects. If this is not the case, then Im sorry.

 

[Foma]

Please do not appologize. You are giving out good ideas and in a thoughtful, not provocative manner. Please teach that to others

Anywhoo, this discussion alone proves that it's on the minds of many. We aren't replying to say "it is a bad idea, shuttup!", heh. We are replying to say it *is* a good idea to flesh out rogues more - both for dps and for the 'lore' side of a rogue. We just were pointing out a) the utterly uselessness of the LIVE version of poisons and their flaws to prove that point and b) that we wish for WR to not follow that path precisely.

Again, good ideas. We just need to work out as a 'rogue community' a good batch of *workable* ideas to give Wiz and the devs something usefull to chew upon. The more workable our ideas are in theory (i.e. logical, non-overpowering, etc), generally the more easily codable they are. Mind you I am not in the current WR rogue community - my rogue was on LIVE, not yet on WR. Mind you I am not a WR Dev - I am a RL dev on non-EQ projects. But these are good ideas that need to be talked over and such until we have a good set of options for Wiz to pick out from this thread and maybe try to implement.

Keep it up.

 

[Liam]

I always thought that WR's rogues were fairly well off. They're dps is far superior to monks, and they have evade (Which apparently while not as useful as FD for aggro evasion, it's still good)

As far as poison goes, I'm pretty sure we won't be seeing that, if at all, until the other trade skills are finished (I know this doesn't necessarily count as one, but it's a ton of extra work to do so it'll be put on back order for a bit)

Interesting discussion though. I can't add much outside of the monk opinion however

 

[WazeekWazoo]

Cant the resistability of a given spell affect be altered?

Yes, it can. However, if these spells were altered, the rogue would be too powerful for raid-type encounters. For a raid-type encounter, the only poison that is usefull would be a slow. If we can slow 50-60%, then this would take the shamans job, who gets resists most of the time, and gets death agro. For simple grouping, lowering the resists of the poisons decreases from the balance of the classes that already have these spells. By making these spells less resistant, something has to be added to the other classes (ie shamans for slow) in order to keep the class balance.. If that WAS done, then once again the mobs would have to be buffed to keep NPC vs PC balance.

Why does the DPS given by X poison have to be the sole determinant of its usefulness?

It's not. But it is being used as a strong example. The point was to prove the ineffectiveness of DD poisons, because that damage goes to your overall DPS. The stun is just a 1 to 4 second added bonus.

Sure, as it stands rogues now chiefly do only one thing but why force yourself into that design box?

We aren't putting ourselves in this box, we are put in it. Believe me, we try EVERYTHING else we can do, whenever we get the chance. On WR if you ask a rogue to do a CR, or Scout.. He is in heaven.

That DDstun may not do much damage but it DOES stun.

It sure does... But if you have ever casted a stun spell, you will know they are more resistable then most spells. Giants/Dragons can not be stunned, and some other mobs, not sure (Haven't played paladin since before Kunark). Not only that, but if it does land.. It could last anywhere from a fraction of a second, to 4 or 5 seconds at the MOST. But remember.. you can only cast it once.. and thats at the beginning of the fight.. In a lvl 60 group, basically you are saving (if it lands) the cleric/healer an extra 0-300 hp heal.. Once again.. not worth spending the valuable plat.

Also, cant the hate generated by X poison be altered as well?

I supposed it could. But it also reverts back to stealing balance. If a shaman cant cast slow without huge aggro, why should we be able to?

Why would snares only be useful when soloing?

I don't know where this was said, but they aren't.. It is just the logical first poison when soloing. The ONLY way you will be able to solo past 50 (without buffs), is to : apply snare poison, hit mob (hope it lands), run away, sit and apply a slow really fast, hit mob (hope it lands).... And, say you do win. You now have low health, can only bind wound up to 70%, have 20-50pp less, and only gained 1% exp.



As for changing the effects on the poisons all together.. What could be done? ALL poisons MUST be a negative spell directed at your target. Meaning, you can't have a poison, that when it goes of, buff you. Because then it's not a poison. So therefore, all poisons must be a DD/DoT/Debuff of some sort (as they were on live)...

However, there is one poison that would be interesting.. not too powerful, and follow the lore of a rogue. That would be a poison that is a memory blur type effect. So, in case the fight gets bad, if a rogue can sit down mid-fight, apply this poison.. Hit once, mem blur, then hide. He could stay alive. Like the AA escape.

As for the monks, I haven't relogged any monks dps vs rogs.. mainly because this patch has made me lose interest in-game. But I WAS getting outdamaged, and considering two of your GoTW rogues use the exact same weapons (and worse), I hardly think my gear is THAT bad..

And for the FD.. It should not be more powerful then evade.. mid-fight. A character that lurks in the shadows, and can pull the shadows around him, and DEPENDS on this ability for survival should be far better at tricking a mob than a monk playing possum.

 

[Shevek]

However, if these spells were altered, the rogue would be too powerful for raid-type encounters. For a raid-type encounter, the only poison that is usefull would be a slow. If we can slow 50-60%, then this would take the shamans job, who gets resists most of the time, and gets death agro.

Hmm, I am somewhat perplexed here, shamans get slows that can slow up to 75%, Enchanters up tp 70%, Beastlords up to 65%, and Bards 52% I think (not to mention potent Necro undead only slows) - how exactly is a 50% slow unbalancing? Surely, such poisons should not be attainable too early but would a 50% slow be as unbalancing as you suggest? Arent there procing weapons with similar effects? Why would a 50% slow trivialize the roles of more potent slowers in a raid setting? Couldnt start weaker and reach 50% effectiveness later in a rogue's life (for example, lethargic bliss, a snare poison, slows movement at first by only 30some percent but increases with level)?

For simple grouping, lowering the resists of the poisons decreases from the balance of the classes that already have these spells. By making these spells less resistant, something has to be added to the other classes (ie shamans for slow) in order to keep the class balance.. If that WAS done, then once again the mobs would have to be buffed to keep NPC vs PC balance.

Hmm, I see. Certainly, poisons should not have such low resists as to make other classes' spell ability worthless. I still seriously doubt backup slows of significantly lesser power would upset balance in the manner which you describe. Cost, Poison Application skill checks, improvements in poison power relative to player level and/OR level limits (if possible) should be used to make sure poisons are not available or feasably usuable at a level or state where they would prove overpowering.

The stun is just a 1 to 4 second added bonus.

Giants/Dragons can not be stunned, and some other mobs, not sure (Haven't played paladin since before Kunark). Not only that, but if it does land.. It could last anywhere from a fraction of a second, to 4 or 5 seconds at the MOST. But remember.. you can only cast it once.. and thats at the beginning of the fight.. In a lvl 60 group, basically you are saving (if it lands) the cleric/healer an extra 0-300 hp heal.. Once again.. not worth spending the valuable plat.

While I concur that repeated use of such poison would be inadvisable, the same could be said of stun spells themselves (unless you are a Paladin using them for agro). There are several times when fighting dangerous casting and, very importantly, gating MOBs that a plethora of group members utilizing stuns has been instrumental. Certainly, all poisons need not be designed for constant use should they? Just as numerous spells exist for a specificity of situations, what would be wrong in accepting stun poisons for a specific situation?

If a shaman cant cast slow without huge aggro, why should we be able to?

I would like to say something here. At one point, you comment on the large agro making poison useless. Then you comment that reduction of agro makes another class useless. I think we should perhaps try to avoid such irrational extremes and talk in a rational and quantifiable manner with respect to this issue. I would say, that if a shaman can live with the agro, then perhaps a rogue could as well. If this is not the case, Im sure a happy medium could be reached. Perhaps use of such a poison would preclude a smart rogue from the use of backstab for a couple rounds - couldnt this be viewed positively as a means to balance out the use of a poison?

I don't know where this was said, but they aren't.. It is just the logical first poison when soloing. The ONLY way you will be able to solo past 50 (without buffs), is to : apply snare poison, hit mob (hope it lands), run away, sit and apply a slow really fast, hit mob (hope it lands).... And, say you do win. You now have low health, can only bind wound up to 70%, have 20-50pp less, and only gained 1% exp.

Well, this does not speak against their inclusion. Also, one would question your insistence on declaring the poison would cost 50 plat. Even on live, Lethargic Bliss (for example) only costs like 2 plat to get together (though it did also rely on a dropped component from a Najena mob). Moreover, i have noted that prohibitve costs should be avoided. Also, I suggest that a given poisons utility should not be judged solely on its performance in solo play.

However, there is one poison that would be interesting.. not too powerful, and follow the lore of a rogue. That would be a poison that is a memory blur type effect. So, in case the fight gets bad, if a rogue can sit down mid-fight, apply this poison.. Hit once, mem blur, then hide. He could stay alive. Like the AA escape.

That is an interesting suggestion.

 

[WazeekWazoo]

NOTE: I am not JUST naming a certain poison, and declaring it useless.. I am merely using certain ones as an example.

As far as slow goes.. I believe a lvl 60 shaman can slow about 55%, maybe 50% if I'm not mistaken.. They get a 75% slow through AA or REelic spells, im not sure. Regardless, when they DO cast whatever they have, they get tremendous aggro, and have to do some fancy root work/heals to stay alive. However, nowadays, most shamans are waiting until 60-70% to slow. Even if our poison slow was a mere 35%.. with the low low aggro, we would still be superior than a shaman being able to cast it at 100%. I know if I were a shaman, and I almost die from my slows, and/or cant cast before 70% health, and the rogue could cast a slow that was slightly lower at 100%.. I wouldn't even memorize slow. It's all about class balance.. A poison can NOT be more effective than the class that uses the spell.. This includes a variety of things.. Power, Resistance, Aggro, etc. If our poison were better in any of those categories, it would be unblanaced.

There is a simple reason why the poisons on live sucked... Rogues aren't supposed to HAVE spells, due to balancing. Having poisons that are marginally effective in a group setting makes rogues too powerful. We already bring to the group the top DPS in the game, it isn't fair to other classes having the top DPS in the game, and PLUS an effective line up of spells.

Anywho, I give up.. guess I'm not making sense.

 

[Mongrel]

And for the FD.. It should not be more powerful then evade.. mid-fight. A character that lurks in the shadows, and can pull the shadows around him, and DEPENDS on this ability for survival should be far better at tricking a mob than a monk playing possum.

I don't want to start a pissing contest, but this doesn't sound right to me.

Imagine you're fighting a group of "mobs" (players) and suddenly one of them dies. You go "Wohoo" and turn to the next one. Later you see the same guy again, but as a NPC can you tell if it's the same one or just an "/g ADD!"?
However, enemies don't just disappear. So if the guy that keeps poking you in the back is suddenly gone you start to wonder ... "Where's the dude? What's he planning?".

If anything, Evade should create aggro, not remove it
(that was a joke)

Edit: A few typos and some line breaks here and there

 

[WazeekWazoo]

okay.. If you want to think in that sense.. Let's reverse the roles.. Your the NPC, fighting us players.. Your stupid and trying to take out the tank.. A monk pisses you off, you turn around and start beating on him.. and OMG! He dies! Good job NPC, you turn around and go attack someone else.. The monk comes back to life(you know its the same one, cuz it looks the same and the health matches up, just like YOU know in a group which is the add and which isn't.. id hope) You go after him again, and... he DIES! Are you going to believe it this time? Hell no (well maybe, your stupid enough not to go after the cleric =p). Whereas.. Your an NPC.. getting raped from behind by a rogue.. you turn around, attack him, and POOF! he disappears.. WTF? Oh well, cant find the rogue.. attack someone else.. bam backstab.. turn around again, attack.. POOF! he's gone again.. .As an NPC you know good and well that he can do that at any time he wants.. and you know his abilities to draw the shadows around him make it more powerful.. Point is.. you can beat the crap out of a dead thing.. but you can't hit something you can't see.

 

[Wiz]

Arguing realism in EQ is funny.

 

[WazeekWazoo]

Arguing realism in EQ is actually fun.. For instance.. there is NO WAY that the boobs on the Wood elves are natural.. I mean... how can they walk in the trees.. wouldn't it disrupt their balance?

 

[haiku]

On the contrary my friend. Woodelf boobs are filled with a magic gas lighter than any known substance. As the magic gas tries to rise, the woodelf's breasts actually make her feel lighter than she actually is. Thus making it easier for her to crawl around in the trees.

 

[Mongrel]

I was trying to be humerous in my post, Wazeek, but oh well, I guess I gotta learn more about that, before matching your high level of saracasm.

(bold highlighting added by me)

Your the NPC, fighting us players.. Your stupid and trying to take out the tank

(you know its the same one, cuz it looks the same and the health matches up

and you know his abilities to draw the shadows around him make it more powerful

At least try to be consequent, mkay?
First I'm stupid, but suddenly I'm clever enough to know the above things, riiiight.

/bonk Wazeek

 

[WazeekWazoo]

You have gotten better at sarcasm! (252)

I was going to post again.. but.. my skill is maxed.. so no need to..

 

[Mongrel]

Doh!

Mine had an overflow, now back at 0 after reaching 4294967296 ;(