Current BSTLORD fist damage mechanics
- Thread starter susurrus
- Start date
I don't know, but I noticed that Deific Brand heals you according to how fast your weapon is.
So you could find out the speed of your fists, by hitting a DB'd mob, say you get healed for 13 a pop, okey, try a delay 18 weapon, you get healed 9? Ok, not delay 18 then, ect ect.
So you could find out the speed of your fists, by hitting a DB'd mob, say you get healed for 13 a pop, okey, try a delay 18 weapon, you get healed 9? Ok, not delay 18 then, ect ect.
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So after digging into this a little bit...
My understanding from talking to Slaar is that the fist mechanics are supposed to be the same between monk and bstlord, meaning that the fist ratio scales with the value of STR and DEX.
Per my parses with and without shaman stats, it is clear that bstlord ratio does in fact change with stat values, and does more DPS as STR and DEX values increase.
The main difference I notice between BST and MNK fist is that MNK fist accuracy is ~90%, defining accuracy as swings that do not miss. On the other hand, BST fist accuracy is around 70%, which is similar to classes with 250 weapon skill using any weapon. I also noticed an increase in accuracy over long parses when adding +25 h2h skill overcap, but it only brought the beast into the 72-74 range, not the 90+ range that monks get.
Given the miss rates with h2h weapon on BST, I am unsure the damage of a fist weapon will ever compare to the damage of using weapons, as well as weapons advantage of giving higher stats / hp.
My main question now is, if MNK and BST fist are designed to function the same way, is the 20% miss rate difference intentional? Or was it just tweaked for MNK during the revamp and forgotten about because most BST use weapons? Is there a possibility of giving BST the same h2h accuracy that monks currently have? If so, this may help bridge the gap and allow BST to use h2h as a DPS set up, in exchange for the improved durability of using weapons.
Thoughts?
My understanding from talking to Slaar is that the fist mechanics are supposed to be the same between monk and bstlord, meaning that the fist ratio scales with the value of STR and DEX.
Per my parses with and without shaman stats, it is clear that bstlord ratio does in fact change with stat values, and does more DPS as STR and DEX values increase.
The main difference I notice between BST and MNK fist is that MNK fist accuracy is ~90%, defining accuracy as swings that do not miss. On the other hand, BST fist accuracy is around 70%, which is similar to classes with 250 weapon skill using any weapon. I also noticed an increase in accuracy over long parses when adding +25 h2h skill overcap, but it only brought the beast into the 72-74 range, not the 90+ range that monks get.
Given the miss rates with h2h weapon on BST, I am unsure the damage of a fist weapon will ever compare to the damage of using weapons, as well as weapons advantage of giving higher stats / hp.
My main question now is, if MNK and BST fist are designed to function the same way, is the 20% miss rate difference intentional? Or was it just tweaked for MNK during the revamp and forgotten about because most BST use weapons? Is there a possibility of giving BST the same h2h accuracy that monks currently have? If so, this may help bridge the gap and allow BST to use h2h as a DPS set up, in exchange for the improved durability of using weapons.
Thoughts?
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It's not necessarily a gap to bridge, from my parses my auto attack DPS with my best proc setup is ~510 DPS, with fists using my hellhound fist it was 350.
This means if we upped accuracy to where monks are, bst melee dps would be 340 * .9/.7 = 437.
Then what if we upgrade to blazewind gloves? I'm not entirely sure, it might be comparable it might not.. but in its current implementation I don't see a reason to use H2h, which seems silly given the attention to itemization and the structure monk was given, and the fact that we are on the same damage tables.
And granted I completely expect bstlord white damage to suck, we don't have double attack skill -- but given the current itemization and the benefit we have from going solely for procs, the only way to bring fists anywhere near in line with other weapon set ups would be to make the accuracy the same as monks.
It just seems it would be a waste to ignore the time and effort that has gone in to balancing h2h for the monk class when the work is already done. With the current accuracy on BST h2h just won't be used.
This means if we upped accuracy to where monks are, bst melee dps would be 340 * .9/.7 = 437.
Then what if we upgrade to blazewind gloves? I'm not entirely sure, it might be comparable it might not.. but in its current implementation I don't see a reason to use H2h, which seems silly given the attention to itemization and the structure monk was given, and the fact that we are on the same damage tables.
And granted I completely expect bstlord white damage to suck, we don't have double attack skill -- but given the current itemization and the benefit we have from going solely for procs, the only way to bring fists anywhere near in line with other weapon set ups would be to make the accuracy the same as monks.
It just seems it would be a waste to ignore the time and effort that has gone in to balancing h2h for the monk class when the work is already done. With the current accuracy on BST h2h just won't be used.
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Latest Monk Revision
1. Hand to Hand damage has increased accuracy (without weapons in) scales with glove damage, str, and dex.
He may have not given(forgot to give) the increased accuracy to beastlords.
You should test to see if your accuracy with weapons and without weapons on the beastlord is the same or not instead of testing it against a monk. Also attack from the back if your using Grimstump.
1. Hand to Hand damage has increased accuracy (without weapons in) scales with glove damage, str, and dex.
He may have not given(forgot to give) the increased accuracy to beastlords.
You should test to see if your accuracy with weapons and without weapons on the beastlord is the same or not instead of testing it against a monk. Also attack from the back if your using Grimstump.
It looks like it may have been an oversight, my accuracy rate is the same with h2h and with other weapons. I now have parses with 1h and 2h weps as well as h2h, attacking from behind on Grimstump, no ripostes 
Maybe we can get it looked at having the accuracy added for bsts as well?
Maybe we can get it looked at having the accuracy added for bsts as well?
Fists are 13/18 for monks and beastlords at level 65. Hyoren is correct that the damage and delay scale up from there with str, dex, and glove damage. The scaling affects all classes, but in practical terms hand to hand isn't really viable for classes other than monks/beastlords due to having a higher delay on hand to hand attacks, lower skill, and lack of itemization.
Can you look into the problem of the increased accuracy? At the moment we think it is only implemented for monks, but we figure it should be for beastlords too since beastlords do sit on a H2H Mod Main Quest Aug. The increased accuracy is something that was implemented in regards to there should be "some benefit" to going weaponless (losing AC/HP/Mana/Stats), otherwise there would be no point for a beastlord to go weaponless and therefore the Main Quest Aug should be changed from H2H to Conjuration or something that is actually useful to the beastlords.
@j883376 When both monk main hand and off hand are empty, they appear to get a h2h accuracy bonus. I've parsed their accuracy to be about 90%, meaning they miss only 10% of attacks, not counting monster avoidance.
When beastlord main and off hand are empty, their accuracy is the same as with other weapons, in the low 70% range.
Is this behavior intended? Are monks meant to have this increased accuracy and beastlord not?
Thank you for taking the time to reply! You guys are great.
When beastlord main and off hand are empty, their accuracy is the same as with other weapons, in the low 70% range.
Is this behavior intended? Are monks meant to have this increased accuracy and beastlord not?
Thank you for taking the time to reply! You guys are great.
Monks do have an accuracy increase when both their primary and secondary slots are empty. It's definitely intentional that it's monk only, but the "why" is outside the scope of what I can answer because my role is administrating the servers and maintaining the server code, not game balance.