COP 1 - 5 and removing the bar for new players to participate in the raidgame

[Glamrin]

COP1-5 posing a high barrier for new players to complete before being able to participate in the community, and this making casuals or new non-hardcore players quit before getting there is a problem that has been discussed here and there.

Sometimes removing them has been discussed but naturally this is not an idea that has been very popular with all those players who have done them!

A good compromise that would not really change the game for players with 5 cops done much but that would make a huge difference for new players would be to simply redistribute their benefits somewhat!

IE make 1 cop add all the healing that current 5 cops does, 1 cop adds all the melee dps, one adds spell dps one adds pet dps and just to get a 5th let that one add better tankability in some way.
Then set the order of the tomes to do different things for different classes or simply rename them to something new and do a replace in a favorable order for each class (healers with tome 1 done gets healing for example).

This would make some of the cops less interesting compared to other tomes for most classes, players with 5 cops wouldnt lose anything and suddenly a new healer or a new caster or melee dps would be useful in raids far earlier than now, thus allowing new players a better chance of being useful and becoming a part of the community at an earlier stage.

Just thought I'd throw it out there...

 

[Otcho]

I don't think you need codexes to raid, in fact you can definitely get away with not doing them for a very long time. I think a bigger issue for new players is just the time investment of the game as a whole, why the hell experience was nerfed in any way, shape, or form is beyond me.

 

[donfolstar3]

How can you trust someone to push buttons in a raid environment unless they have trudged through 65 levels of (mostly) soloing/boxing then grinded hundreds of AAs worth of tomes?

 

[Salarus]

IE make 1 cop add all the healing that current 5 cops does, 1 cop adds all the melee dps, one adds spell dps one adds pet dps and just to get a 5th let that one add better tankability in some way.
Then set the order of the tomes to do different things for different classes or simply rename them to something new and do a replace in a favorable order for each class (healers with tome 1 done gets healing for example).

Just thought I'd throw it out there...

I think this is already being discussed in Balancing Discussion. Or was discussed I should say. Not sure if a verdict was reached, but from the thread it seems like Wald was leaning towards this option.

The counter argument was hybrid classes would facepalm.

 

[Glamrin]

thanks salarus. I had missed that! And on hybrids atleast they wouldnt be any worse off than now.

(suppose difference here compared to woldaffs suggestion would be the tank and pet tome making it 5 tomes vs 5 tomes, and reimbursing it with new tomes instead of tokens, but yeah).

 

[Kedrin]

thanks salarus. I had missed that! And on hybrids atleast they wouldnt be any worse off than now.

Just seems like the idea isn't really a "fix" if it makers some classes need to get less exp to perform equally then they do now when others would still have to do the same.

The mind set should be let's not do this idea and think of something better when contradiction such as this appear. Over let's half ass something that we know we will have to go back and change anyhow.

Also, thinking you "need" CoP to raid is funny since T10 content was in the game before CoP even came out. New players really shouldn't be jumping into those raids anyhow. Maybe new players should try to just have fun and kill things they can kill over trying to just be the best.

 

[ynnear]

if cop was removed the current health of fights/encounters would need to be adjusted or items would need to be adjusted. you just cant removed 20% of everything with out replacing it elsewere. And i really dont see the staff taking the time to do that.

 

[Kedrin]

if cop was removed the current health of fights/encounters would need to be adjusted or items would need to be adjusted. you just cant removed 20% of everything with out replacing it elsewere. And i really dont see the staff taking the time to do that.

I don't think they would ever remove it from the game they would simply just give every 65 free CoP5. It's more easy to do all around. However it would only make lower tier raids even more lackluster than they are now. You can already skip to T5 raids quite easy just from BoE gear. If everyone was also doing 20% more melee, spell and healing it would just kill more old content.

Basically what I'm trying to say is someone needs to come up with an idea that is not just 1) removing them 2) giving them away for free 3) splitting them up to fuck over some classes just because.

 

[Gargate]

Kedrin summed it up.

When I started in SoD I boxed a shm with my ranger, finished the MQ up to the point of starting the ikisith stuff then managed to get into a raid guild that was starting at T2 (most of which was made up of higher lvl players that were gearing alts).

Long story short I didn't finish CoP's until ToT roughly 8-9 months after starting into the raid game.

Also last I knew most of the higher guilds in game WILL let just about anyone join and get scrubbed in when able so long as there willing to play a higher up char until they catch up there main exp/quest wise. Just gotta be social and be willing to do work on a char that's not yours (be a team player). In CW we had players that were well geared/exped get sidelined and play another char simply because that other class was needed more.

 

[Ulandx]

COP1-5 posing a high barrier for new players to complete ...

It's more a matter of xp gain nerfed,prominently with the old area penalty system.

 

[Thade]

It's more a matter of xp gain nerfed,prominently with the old area penalty system.

No, It's not. Even in the old system it was possible to get to max codex using only a handful of zones. And the only zones that have actually been nerfed are ikisith zones, which doesn't effect grinding tomes when you have no gear that badly.

The problem is the fact tomes are so long, and were never intended to be required for raiding, but they have become required.

 

[Daffie]

Maybe new players should try to just have fun and kill things they can kill over trying to just be the best.

Some people like to just play for fun, some people like to play for fun and win. I think the people who are drawn to always being the best are not the ones discouraged by CoP XP amounts. This thread was started because there the thought that the people who are just playing to have fun are being blackballed because CoP is too hard finish. I don't necessarily agree, but I do think that even players who can't finish CoP like to try new and harder content.

Also last I knew most of the higher guilds in game WILL let just about anyone join and get scrubbed in when able so long as there willing to play a higher up char until they catch up there main exp/quest wise. Just gotta be social and be willing to do work on a char that's not yours (be a team player). In CW we had players that were well geared/exped get sidelined and play another char simply because that other class was needed more.

This is the problem with EQ in general, and more so in SoD because the raids are smaller. Meaning each individual person/class is that much more important. Certain classes are a requirement so if they aren't there, no one can raid unless people who are at the raid change classes. Frankly, it sucks when you can't play your guy(s). We've all done it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is meh.
This is where a talent/re-spec tree would be cool, or Zeala's game where your guy is a certain class because of what gear you have on. I don't think changing is even possible with SoD at this stage of the game.
All this said, the response that the game is all good because if you are new and want to raid with anyone tier x and up you can play someone's ringer and get your guy in when we have room is lame. We do it in mmo's, and not just in EQ, but it is still lame. I think this issue is compound in SoD because the population is not at a point where guilds of all tiers exist and are active.

Maybe a cool rule would be where the lowest 1 or 2 dudes in the raid can get temp 'gear/aa/stat/tome boosts' during raids (if they are shittier than the raid average by x.) Maybe this costs some gold like a tribute system. This would let shitty geared new guys with crap AAs be able to raid with the cool kids even if he doesn't have CoP, and it would give incentive for the new guy to get gear/CoP/Charm done.

 

[enasc]

I would like to understand where this is coming from. What content are you unable to raid without finishing CoP? What guild has a completed CoP as a requirement for joining and raiding?

I'm curious, since I have seen characters in Turruj without completing the tomes. These forums are the only place I have ever heard that 5 complete CoP are a requirement to raid; and that requirement never attributed to any content, guild, or person other than one proposing their removal.

Can they be intimidating to new users? Absolutely. Are they a long grindfest if you want to complete them quickly? Absolutely. But they're also easily the best tomes in the game. Yes, I've completed them, and they were worth every bit of grinding to my class.

On the other hand, if there are people requiring CoP to raid Halls of Misery (or similarly tiered content) that sounds like a community issue that we as players should deal with, and not one that requires removing tomes.

 

[fxattack]

Completed codices and tomes can now be purchased with a $1 donation each.

 

[Daffie]

I would like to understand where this is coming from. What content are you unable to raid without finishing CoP? What guild has a completed CoP as a requirement for joining and raiding?

I'm curious, since I have seen characters in Turruj without completing the tomes. These forums are the only place I have ever heard that 5 complete CoP are a requirement to raid; and that requirement never attributed to any content, guild, or person other than one proposing their removal.

Can they be intimidating to new users? Absolutely. Are they a long grindfest if you want to complete them quickly? Absolutely. But they're also easily the best tomes in the game. Yes, I've completed them, and they were worth every bit of grinding to my class.

On the other hand, if there are people requiring CoP to raid Halls of Misery (or similarly tiered content) that sounds like a community issue that we as players should deal with, and not one that requires removing tomes.

Not sure if this was @ my post or @ OP.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything in your post, at the end of my post I was posing an alternative to the current system moving the OP along. No joke CoP are disheartening but worth the xp.

Completed codices and tomes can now be purchased with a $1 donation each.

Micro transfers are not even funny anymore since so many MMOs do them

 

[enasc]

Not sure if this was @ my post or @ OP.

Oops, was for Glamrin. I was on my phone and guess I didn't click quote.

 

[Gargate]

Dunno how other guilds did it, but in cw if you we're a team player you could log into new loot. Yeah tomes are long, area bonus should stop before going to negative but really a lot of new players issues can be solved just by being friendly and social.

 

[Yale1]

IMO,
I do not think that CoP's are the direct problem with new players quiting. what kills off casual / non hardcore players (people with jobs and lives), be it new or old is the inability to play the game, because the game is basically all about raiding now or it is based around raid geared characters. Not all casual players have time to raid and not all guilds are casual player friendly. That really requires a specific person to play this game. If you want more people, the server needs to put more time and effort into having the game friendly for people who play casual. There are way too many things driving casuals away and very few things to no things being presented to try and keep them / gain more people

 

[enasc]

IMO,
I do not think that CoP's are the direct problem with new players quiting. what kills off casual / non hardcore players (people with jobs and lives), be it new or old is the inability to play the game, because the game is basically all about raiding now or it is based around raid geared characters. Not all casual players have time to raid and not all guilds are casual player friendly. That really requires a specific person to play this game. If you want more people, the server needs to put more time and effort into having the game friendly for people who play casual. There are way too many things driving casuals away and very few things to no things being presented to try and keep them / gain more people

I was trying to write out a much more try-hard version of this post, but yeah. I agree completely. At a low end, this game can be casual. When you're at the point of needing tomes and raiding contested content, it is not.

 

[donfolstar3]

IMO,
I do not think that CoP's are the direct problem with new players quiting. what kills off casual / non hardcore players (people with jobs and lives), be it new or old is the inability to play the game, because the game is basically all about raiding now or it is based around raid geared characters. Not all casual players have time to raid and not all guilds are casual player friendly. That really requires a specific person to play this game. If you want more people, the server needs to put more time and effort into having the game friendly for people who play casual. There are way too many things driving casuals away and very few things to no things being presented to try and keep them / gain more people

Nah man. Someone will gladly say that raiding isn't a huge time investment by lying about how little they play which still works out to be 500+ hours a year. Just wait.