Clickies

[Aflop]

I kinda think these are getting out of kilter and are just kicking INT casters in the nuts.

Cloak of the chaotic - useable at lvl 55 and all/all - wizard AoE snare is now available to all classes.
Boots of Entaglement - a tradeable item 1.5 sec root that can be used by any level 1 CLR / DRU / RNG / WIZ. That clicky is the level 61 mage root and has a 2.75 second cast time when used by a mage casting that spell.

Identify / DS / Evac / Gate / Tash / Snare / Root / Port necks and many more are available to any T4+ toon. I will question why classes are being diluted by clickies.

Wizard progression is stagnant after getting moon comet for 6 tiers, I will ask you to think about this also please.

Can I have backstab, FD and duel wield , as most melee seem to be able to use clickies to cover int caster clickies

 

[Obscenitor]

EDIT: I tend to disagree I think clickies add an interesting scope to an otherwise limited game.

 

[Rorne]

I kinda think these are getting out of kilter and are just kicking INT casters in the nuts.

Cloak of the chaotic - useable at lvl 55 and all/all - wizard AoE snare is now available to all classes.
Boots of Entaglement - a tradeable item 1.5 sec root that can be used by any level 1 CLR / DRU / RNG / WIZ. That clicky is the level 61 mage root and has a 2.75 second cast time when used by a mage casting that spell.

Identify / DS / Evac / Gate / Tash / Snare / Root / Port necks and many more are available to any T4+ toon. I will question why classes are being diluted by clickies.

Wizard progression is stagnant after getting moon comet for 6 tiers, I will ask you to think about this also please.

Can I have backstab, FD and duel wield

You may have a valid point but including absurd examples like Gate and Identify is not doing you any favours if you want people to take you seriously. Also in regards to Boots of Entanglement aside from rangers all those classes have equivalent root spells by level 9 so the item does not strike me as that insane but maybe I'm overlooking something.

 

[Ulandx]

I kinda think these are getting out of kilter

I will question why classes are being diluted .

Can I have backstab, FD and duel wield

What do ya expect on a server where Druids match Cleric healing and degrade
Shammies to hybrids,are you asking for balance?

TAO EDIT: This post was awarded a 1 day forum suspension

 

[Salarus]

Honestly, there are clickies that touch on pretty much every class. Wizards being stagnant after moon commett I won't weigh in on because I know very little about the class. However, there are clickies for stuns (hello paladin) lifetaps (hello shadowknights/necro) mez to an extent (hello chanters) player made aggro drop clickies (hello every class with an aggro drop) self heals to a lesser extent (hello again, paladins.) So really, I don't see an issue with clickeis as none of them go anywhere near the power of any of the classes they derive their benefits from.

 

[Kazimir]

Has anyone ever said to you or someone you know... Your not needed we have clickies to do your job? Doubtful. Now your gear isn't enough or not enough AAs sure, but never clickies.

/End Thread

 

[Abelfaec]

Has anyone ever said to you or someone you know... Your not needed we have clickies to do your job? Doubtful. Now your gear isn't enough or not enough AAs sure, but never clickies.

/End Thread

Eh, certain types of clickies are important for classes to do their job effectively. One example of this is monks most definitely need to have a pet clickie to even take advantage of several types of pulling styles on SoD. Another good example is for certain high tier requirements priests and casters are almost required to have some clickie modrod-like item such as mind hunger. I dunno, i think some of this is fairly valid.

The boots mentioned earlier with clickie root are incredibly good example of excessive power. They are clickable, have an initial dmg with the root when it lands, and -had- no recast. I want to say i haven't messed with them in years, but I might assume they haven't been changed too much.

One good example of an item with a utility clickie everyone might be interested in is "scaled boots of escape" from teashlin in OP, Tier 7. (i think?) It has a clickie that dispells most roots/snares on the caster (non-targetable) (unaware if there are any exceptions). Maybe I would like to see more of these clickies show up for a broader range of classes. Maybe even clerics...

 

[Salarus]

Has anyone ever said to you or someone you know... Your not needed we have clickies to do your job? Doubtful. Now your gear isn't enough or not enough AAs sure, but never clickies.

/End Thread

This.

I've yet to see a pull where having the monk pet is essential. It makes a couple of them easier, sure, but unless i'm missing something you don't need it.

Healers don't *need* the cani clicky, it just speeds things up.

etc.

ETC.

ETC.

 

[eqjenius]

High end casters get insane ratio weapons and gear with enough AC to make tanks drool. Shouldn't melees get Damage and Healing Increment XVI items to compensate?


EDIT:

 

[Bridger]

Has anyone ever said to you or someone you know... Your not needed we have clickies to do your job?

As a Mage yes I have had people say precisely that.

 

[Aflop]

Thanks to the people that posted something constructive.

EDIT: I tend to disagree I think clickies add an interesting scope to an otherwise limited game.

Yes I agree with with what you said, clickies have a place in the game, however they are starting to get stupidly overpowered and have diluted classes to the extent where any class can now root / snare / self buff without the need for buffs from others.

Also in regards to Boots of Entanglement aside from rangers all those classes have equivalent root spells by level 9 so the item does not strike me as that insane but maybe I'm overlooking something.

A level 61 mage root that can be cast in half the time it takes a mage to cast, useable by 4 classes at level 1 and for no mana. Yes you are overlooking something.

This is a suggestions and request thread and I'm just asking to tone down the amount and availabilty of clickies as its getting beyond a joke, especially since Ikisith. The result has made INT casters redundant to some extent.

To conclude, waiting for 30 secs for "Meditive trance" to kick in has pretty much killed the utility on INT casters in fast pulling groups, now that every clicker under the sun is available to every class, its not fun to sit on my ass medding while a ROG/MNK/RNG rips my DPS to death.

 

[Bridger]

A quote from a very well known Monk.

I started off playing a caster but soon realised that was stupid. I can get almost everything a caster can do from clickies, I can get sufficient armour so that I do not fall down dead as soon as a mob looks at me, I can FD if I get into trouble, and I do not have to spend half my life sitting on my backside.

 

[Abelfaec]

I've yet to see a pull where having the monk pet is essential. It makes a couple of them easier, sure, but unless i'm missing something you don't need it.

Depends on how you define need buddy. There are alot of cases where if a monk doesn't use sending a pet in to pull as an advantage to get farther away from a mob, or his aoes he's not going to make it back to the tank. Most cases being mobs that run bardspeed.

There are also lots of other mechanics like using a pet to tag and separate groups of mobs.

I would argue there is no case where 2 monks need pet clickies in order to pull, but I'm not sure needing another monk is a good thing?

Healers don't *need* the cani clicky, it just speeds things up.

Well, yes, but it's become a determiner of worth to alot of guilds.

 

[Abelfaec]

What exactly is it that mages do that is so easily replaced by clickies anyway?

Really? Well, we could start with the fact that most of their benificial buffs (aside from DS) are used by summon x-item with y-number of charges and give it to zPerson so they don't need you again for 3 hours unless the server crashes and their no rent items poof.

Levitation, enduring breath, etc etc.

Then you have the whole issue of not even needing a mage to summon dots because someone got on a mage 9 hours ago and summoned 10 stacks, who just so happened to give you a stack when you logged on.

Somewhere in mage's worth we emphasize their utility to other classes by summonable components. Which is all well and good, but if when you allow one person to summon enough peridots to fuel athica's raego and savagery needs for the next 5 hours you start diminishing that utility of the individual mage address a public need, because a single mage worked for everyone. Maybe peridots summons should have a recast, and mages should be able to cast eb/levitation, If any mage cries hearing this as a mage nerf I suggest they re-evaluate the impact it would have.

Somehow I am doubtful that monks wouldn't be able to FD, have AC/avoidance and attack without having to med even if there were no clickies. (That is, I think this is another, wholly irrelevant, separate issue.)

I'm not sure you really understood what he was saying. Monks have perfect jolt, and at tier 5+ it seems clickies start gaining so much cross-archetype ability really the only thing no one else EVER gets is perfect jolt (FD with no cast time).

There's validity to his statement.

What i suggest is:

Breaking down the classes into 4 archetypes, melee tank, melee dps, caster dps, and caster heal.

Put these four archetypes on a small square piece of paper and put Healer in top left, Dmg Spell in top right, melee dps in bottom right, and tanks in bottom left. Stop giving classes clickies from POLAR OPPOSITE archetypes.

If you don't understand how diagonals break this balance system it's probably a better idea to leave the discussion to people who understand the problem.

 

[Abelfaec]

Simple. You give healers melee dps clickies, tanks caster dps clickies, and casters healing clickies. I won't even get into what all/aal clickies with utility to do a system of balance.

Let's mention cure clickies, for all/all, Damage shield clickies for all/all (specifically off balancing for tanks to have these) nuke clickies (seriously? these are 100% irreplacable, see the line of people wanting Taesh earring) mana regen clickies for heals(djar mini gloves? Lol)

The more you create items like this the more you diminish the effectiveness of the true class, because sure, ganzese's signet ring is only what 1/2 the dmg shield of a relic mage ds, but you won't need to take a mage because if by some off chance you lose your relic ds (god forbid it's sb'd) you'll have a backup clickie to carry you over.

It would be acceptable for classes to get clickies with abilities or spells from other classes in their archetype at mid game (30-35+) with diminished effectiveness (lower level versions of a spell line) and maybe at tiers 2-3 get clickies from archetypes directly next to you in my presented model. But giving a class a clickie enabling them to do something from a polar opposite archetype is just ludacris and stupid. Makes the balance system so freaking complicated everything needs to be looked at with 4 dimensional goggles to even be correctly assessed.

 

[Faelus]

Put these four archetypes on a small square piece of paper and put Healer in top left, Dmg Spell in top right, melee dps in bottom right, and tanks in bottom left. Stop giving classes clickies from POLAR OPPOSITE archetypes.

If you don't understand how diagonals break this balance system it's probably a better idea to leave the discussion to people who understand the problem.

Wait what?

 

[Faelus]

Ok so Cleric wasnt really intended to intersect into DPS caster, but I mean you kind of get the point. Your diagonals analogy makes 0 sense. Sorry.

 

[Bridger]

What exactly is it that mages do that is so easily replaced by clickies anyway

Just off the top of my head

Summon Food
Summon Drink
Invisibility
Levitation
Summon Mod Rod
DS

It is actually more difficult to find things that a Mage can do that are Not covered by clickies.

Somehow I am doubtful that monks wouldn't be able to FD, have AC/avoidance and attack without having to med even if there were no clickies. (That is, I think this is another, wholly irrelevant, separate issue.)

Well Yes and No.

The issue of clickies is very much tied up with Class differentiation which in turn is inextricably linked with Class Balance. It is having those abilties (which in itself is fine as they are characteristics of the Class) but then to also having clickies that enable them to nuke/rez/invis/levitate/summon food and drink/cast ds/buff hp and AC/root/snare/ and goodness knows what else (which are all clearly characteristics of the casting classes) that is the issue here.

 

[Abelfaec]

List:

Ganzese's Signet Ring,
Earring of the Bound Heavens,
______'s Lodestone(vah quest crap),
Mourning of Purity,
An entire line of all/all items with Illusion: Leather/Chain/Plate buffs,
I agree with Afip's referrence to the shoulder pad's with clickie aoe snare, ONLY because they are all, not because a shaman is wearing them; given the rare chance of someone acquiring them due to what drops them (hoping this is obvious why they are rare).
Malo clickie doll form snowskin (i know it's cute, but was everyone really out of ideas when this was made?)
All/All levi clickies definitely count.

Honestly those came off the top of my head, i'll think a bit more and see if in 12 hours anything else comes to mind.

Edits and Additional Items:

Anchorfork.

 

[Abelfaec]

You also need to remember potions. I love alchemy, i really do, but if you don't see how the broad range of uses for potions has diminished the usefulness of buff classes then I am sorry. I know they stack, but at early tiers you don't need warhol's ultimate guard AN shirtri's ward for anything. Haste potion needs to be removed IMO.