CH Change: Discuss

Wiz

Wiz

NOT DONATING *EVER*
This is a change I've been pondering for a while. It works as follows:

1) Clerics get new CHs at level 53 and 65 with 8.5/7.5 cast times respectively.
2) The 2 second limit removed.
3) Whenever you CH someone with one of the CH spells (CH, the two new, druids words, circle of com, etc) you get added to their "CH list", from which you are removed two minutes after your last CH on the person.
4) You cannot use a CH spell on someone whose list is full - it has a max of 3 slots.

This essentially means that there is a cap on just how many clerics are needed, cleric equipment/level/AAs matters much more, and the old system of CH chains is somewhat redudant (all you have to do is get the start of the CHs synced, then spam loose). The reasoning is that the comparative power of adding the durability of another cleric as it stands right now simply has no comparision - going from 3 to 4 clerics gives the entire raid 33% more staying power in the fight. It will give each individual cleric more power - it's kinda absurd to need 6 healers per tank in a multi-raidmob-fight situation. In short it will do what the CH recast failed to.

This will be tested some before any put-in and if it seems like players are losing power from their current situation (and by current situation I mean a raid with say 6 clerics, not a healer bonanza fight) then mob HP or player DPS will be readjusted. I recognize that going from 6 clerics to 3 clerics that are also healing MORE will reduce staying power of the raid, but I prefer giving the mobs a cut in HP to the situation of disproportional power we have today.
 
Are you planning on putting a higher mana cost on the 8.5/7.5 CH spells?

I don't really think this would change the fact that Clerics, Tank, Slower, Puller, buff-sluts, DPS is the hierarchy and building block of a raid.

Maybe I'm not thinking right, but the most efficient CH chain you could use with this system would be pause 400?

Mortimer shouts 'CH inc to alazif' (12:00:00)
Mortimer shouts 'ATTICA ATTICA' (12:00:40)

Attica shouts 'CH INC to Alazif' (12:00:40)
Attica shouts 'RABB RABB' (12:01:20)

Rabb shouts 'CH inc to Alazif' (12:01:20)
Rabb shouts 'MORTE MORTE' (12:02:00)

So you could knock it down to a pause 397

It seems to me like all this is going to do is distribute the emphasis to healers in general, and not just clerics. Or are you planning on dropping mob DPS to the point where 3 clerics could keep a tank alive on a raid target with a 40 second pause?


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Edited to make me look smartur.
 
The best way to do it would be as follows ->

Level 65 Cleric 1 starts CHing.

2.5 seconds later level 65 cleric 2 starts CHing.

2.5 seconds later level 65 cleric 3 starts CHing.

Then they just re-CH whenever it pops back up and you'll have a CH every 3 seconds, thereabout. There isn't really any mobs except like, Juggernaut, that you can't survive with a CH every 3 seconds at 8khp+, at least not in my tests. I'll lower mob attack speed to jive with this new system if necessary though.

What this does is reduce cleric dependancy from 6+ to 3 (+ padders). I think that's a very good thing for all involved, since it'll let me expand the cleric class more without further alleviating to the massive power increase that "more clerics" is, and it also means that every individual cleric's gear and AAs mean something. You'll have your top 3 clerics CHing, just like you'll have your top tank taking the damage.
 
er... what about the CH-list? 3 CH's by 3 clerics and it's full, yes? So optimally cleric 1's CH should hit 2 minutes after his first one?
 
Anadin said:
er... what about the CH-list? 3 CH's by 3 clerics and it's full, yes? So optimally cleric 1's CH should hit 2 minutes after his first one?
Click to expand...

You have it wrong. If you're already on the CH list you can keep on CHing until you turn blue. It just restricts how many people can CH you at once.
 
Update:

- Level 53 spell will be 8.0 seconds.
- 65 will be 7.0.
- Raid mob DPS will be slightly lowered as possible time between heals is being slightly upped.
- Measures like a better ancient mod rod are being put in to ensure that a 3-cleric chain can hold up for quite some time without making clerics have endless mana in exp groups.
 
It sounds like quite a good idea..

Would a healer be removed from the CH list if they die?
It would make sense so another person can take their place asap.


Also I don't know how much discipline the average WR raider has but from my experience and luck you'd always get at least one dopey druid using their CH then nuking or going afk or whatever druids do, thus blocking out the dedicated clerics. Would it be possible to make the list timer something like 30 seconds, then going up by 30 seconds every time an extra CH was cast with a cap of 2 minutes or so?


Edit: Also, very important, I noticed on WR when you buff someone and it doesn't take hold you still lose your mana.. If the CH list was full it would be nice to do something like making the heal 25% as effective instead of totally blocking it, cause that would get fustrating :)
 
Slots will not be removed when the cleric dies, and it will not last 30 seconds, as either would completely nullify the point of this change, you'd still be able to field 10 clerics for endless healing.

You really will not get CHs blocked unless you are completely uncoordinated, and yeah, tough luck for you if you are.
 
and

so additional cleric would essentially become pad healers correct?

I think that's a very good thing for all involved, since it'll let me expand the cleric class more
Click to expand...

Could you explain what you mean or intend to do for expanding the cleric class more. If clerics serve less a role on raids it would be great to see how we will be used/expanded else where before such happens.

Thanks
 
I meant it could add up, so the more CH's cast would bring you closer to 2 minute countdown but one odd heal wouldn't invoke the full timer.. Just a thought.

Would it be too hard to make blocked CH's a percentage of their total that makes them inline with a normal heal..

So if a druid could heal 1500 for 400 mana and has a CH for 400 mana then if their ch was blocked it would only land for around 1500 aswell, it would stop people complaing about their spells becoming useless on raids but not actually make a change to their effectiveness eitherway :)
 
"Expanding clerics" = I need to sit down and think about it, but I'd like to make the cleric class more interesting to play in groups.

Also yes, remaining clerics will be padders. This isn't really unreasonable since no other class is needed in numbers greater than 3.

Furthermore, as a part of this change, I am adding the following spell to enchanters to both give them raidability and alleviate the issue with clerics running out of mana:

Form of the Channeler (L55, ENC, Illusion, reduce mana cost of heals by 25%, increase chance to crit DD spells by 15%)

The DD crit is so that it'll be useful to throw on other casters too. You'll be able to keep it up on two people at once.

Additionally, for further raidability I will be adding 15/25% haste to garou/lycantrope that stacks with spell haste and bard spell haste both.
 
Wiz said:
Form of the Channeler (L55, ENC, Illusion, reduce mana cost of heals by 25%, increase chance to crit DD spells by 15%)
Click to expand...

Will this affect CH? What will the duration of this Illusion be? Will enchanters be able to cast this on multiple targets or only maintain it on one at a time.
 
Wiz said:
"Expanding clerics" = I need to sit down and think about it, but I'd like to make the cleric class more interesting to play in groups.

Also yes, remaining clerics will be padders. This isn't really unreasonable since no other class is needed in numbers greater than 3.

Furthermore, as a part of this change, I am adding the following spell to enchanters to both give them raidability and alleviate the issue with clerics running out of mana:

Form of the Channeler (L55, ENC, Illusion, reduce mana cost of heals by 25%, increase chance to crit DD spells by 15%)

The DD crit is so that it'll be useful to throw on other casters too. You'll be able to keep it up on two people at once.

Additionally, for further raidability I will be adding 15/25% haste to garou/lycantrope that stacks with spell haste and bard spell haste both.
Click to expand...


I like the form of the channeler idea as long as the illusion is something cool looking, no scarecrows!

KAS
 
diolas said:
Wiz said:
Form of the Channeler (L55, ENC, Illusion, reduce mana cost of heals by 25%, increase chance to crit DD spells by 15%)
Click to expand...

Will this affect CH? What will the duration of this Illusion be? Will enchanters be able to cast this on multiple targets or only maintain it on one at a time.
Click to expand...

Yes.

3 minutes.

2 people at a time. (1.4 minutes recast)
 
Though this puts your best clerics in the chain, it also makes your other clerics need to be main clerics (but wouldn't you want your chain clerics as mained (and thus best geared/AAd?) because they need to pay attention to padding. Previously, you could have random_dcer01 load up a cleric and switch over to hit a button. Now, that person is gonna have to pay attention. This isn't a "problem" per se, but just something I thought of.

How will this new CH affect grouping? Is it higher mana cost? If it's the same, then Rabb will never NOT use ch on the mt in groups. You just can't get a 10:1 efficiency with any other heal, even with healing V items so common. The 10 seconds used to be the downfall, but 7 is very manageable. But, if you raise the mana cost too much, you run the risk of having clerics that just go dry too quickly. IIRC, top ruin clerics are running at ~4400 mana and ~FT10. Those three are supposed to last as long as 6 previously? Considering that a 7 cleric chain is essentially infinite, this is clearly not intentional.

Also, if you could make clerics interesting in groups, I'd love to hear how. I have to devote all my mana to healing; I can't nuke. You can't really give us CC (other than root). What else could we do?
 
rabe said:
Also, if you could make clerics interesting in groups, I'd love to hear how. I have to devote all my mana to healing; I can't nuke. You can't really give us CC (other than root). What else could we do?
Click to expand...

My dream for clerics was always a line of heals that cost a bit more mana and did damage to the person you cast them on target, so you heal the tank for 4000 and do 1000 damage to whatever he has targeted in one spell.

Other options are:
Buffs which give people special procs, or something like a third meelee hit each round while the effect is on (blunt crushing for magic hammer).
Special self only meelee procs that heal the group or one group member you specify as you fight.
Summoning wards and guardians that cast beneficial or detrimental spells.
Situational special debuffs (curses), such as negative focus effects on mobs that raise their cast time or recast of spells and other stuff.


I loved soloing with my cleric on live by putting on as much damage shield as possible then healing myself while hitting the mob in meelee and with my pet. My kill rate was however a lot slower than any other class, and when i found out druids were doing the same thing with a time hammer (750dd proc) and their better DS i got annoyed that this special tactic was taken from us. Anything to improve that would be really nice.
 
YOU DO NOT NEED MORE PADDERS WITH THIS CHANGE.

This is fiction, with 3 people casting a 7 spell you can get off CHs on the tank almost as often as with the 2 second limit.

Use math, people.
 
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