Beastlord Stance/AA Changes

darksabbath said:
My thoughts on that:
1)...3Can remove the dots entirely, and revamp our existing nukes to this new spell series (cold, poison, disease resist types).

4) Fixing pet scaling would help all pet classes, especially the bst. As i mentioned before, adding a 65+ quest for a new pet would sure help too.
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In regards to the first part, Shaman is one of beastlords parent classes. You are limited partially by what your parent classes can do as a hybrid; just removing the dots which is part of what you get from your parent class is the exact opposite of what has ever been done on SoD.

As for the last part there are two things you have to remember. Pets have in the past been purposefully kept as a lower power level in sods This in the past was to facilitate grouping and make it so pet classes couldn't just solo all day every day. With power level, i'm not sure the problem is scaling as much as it is the base power of the pets. Your pets already benefit from Spec bonus (Some amount over 10%, not certain, math is hard) , Comp Strength (max of 40% damage), codexes (20% damage), your focus effects, pet tomes, conjuration mod. That's not really that much worse than any other spell. But even an 80% increase in damage doesnt mean much when pets base damage is so low.
 
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I don't think the balance anywhere would get tilted if pets were a lot stronger. They can't survive a melee round later in the game and that makes it impossible if something goes even slightly wrong.

edit: bst have a problem with not being able to max +1hb or +1hp at the same ease as +h2h
 
Thade said:
In regards to the first part, Shaman is one of beastlords parent classes. You are limited partially by what your parent classes can do as a hybrid; just removing the dots which is part of what you get from your parent class is the exact opposite of what has ever been done on SoD.

As for the last part there are two things you have to remember. Pets have in the past been purposefully kept as a lower power level in sods This in the past was to facilitate grouping and make it so pet classes couldn't just solo all day every day. With power level, i'm not sure the problem is scaling as much as it is the base power of the pets. Your pets already benefit from Spec bonus (Some amount over 10%, not certain, math is hard) , Comp Strength (max of 40% damage), codexes (20% damage), your focus effects, pet tomes, conjuration mod. That's not really that much worse than any other spell. But even an 80% increase in damage doesnt mean much when pets base damage is so low.
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True, I guess we can't just toss the dots aside completely. I would just rather them not be the focus when repairing the class, ok?

As you said, 80% of a low number is still a low number. Also, pre- tier 10, their is only one item with conjuration on it (two if you include the one off the 42 adept), so getting that mod maxxed is really only in the realm of the upper tier folks. Even then, I doubt many of the items would be the best choices in slot for a beastlord.
 
I was not accounting for conjuration in that 80%. And 80% is about the same as the rest of spells at that tier (maybe 90-100%).
 
This isnt live we are defining a class role here, nothing says we have to be half shaman... we can have shaman influences.... WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE A TERRIBLE VERSION OF A SHAMAN MONK BABY.
 
mechkl said:
This isnt live we are defining a class role here, nothing says we have to be half shaman... we can have shaman influences.... WE DO NOT HAVE TO BE A TERRIBLE VERSION OF A SHAMAN MONK BABY.
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Sod for the most part stays relatively true to its parent material. There's basically no class thats some giant off the wall deviation from its source concept. I don't understand why you think beastlord's will be any different. Also, it's generally a bad idea to try to get giant off the wall changes made in sod, because they seem to be generally panned by staff. Sod's goal is still for the classes to feel like their ever quest counterparts.
 
I don't think it is off the wall different i think its a spice up. I think its weird that a savage scrapper is using dots to fight... wouldn't they be using their spiritual force in punches. If i got in a fight with some savage wood woodsman i honestly wouldn't be surprised if he shouted bark fists and then pulled out some tree bark knuckles and start coming after me... i would also of course be running at this point cause that dude is cray...

If you wanna keep the dots, give beastlords their own dots. no lower level necro/shaman dots. make them melee range where a beastlords should be anyways, maybe make them cause an attack on spell cast to mitigate losing rounds on spell casts and it will help the spells scale with the beastlord, and add some reason for the beastlord to have his pet around other then this is my 200 dps dot with a model.
 
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mechkl said:
wood man
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3UxyN3y.jpg
 
mechkl said:
I don't think it is off the wall different i think its a spice up. I think its weird that a savage scrapper is using dots to fight... wouldn't they be using their spiritual force in punches. If i got in a fight with some savage wood woodsman i honestly wouldn't be surprised if he shouted bark fists and then pulled out some tree bark knuckles and start coming after me... i would also of course be running at this point cause that dude is cray...

If you wanna keep the dots, give beastlords their own dots. no lower level necro/shaman dots. make them melee range where a beastlords should be anyways, maybe make them cause an attack on spell cast to mitigate losing rounds on spell casts and it will help the spells scale with the beastlord, and add some reason for the beastlord to have his pet around other then this is my 200 dps dot with a model.
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Yes. Bst's do need their own dots. Make them melee range is probably not necessary, being able to cast them when you have to run away from things is useful (4.3, blazewind, etc). They need to all be faster cast (probably half a second, same with their cold nuke line as well) to not butcher their melee damage. I don't have a great solution for pets. There needs to be some pet between 63 and Runic (probably some sort of tier 6-7 ish quest?) and maybe a tome that is actually a useful pet dps increase tome for bsts. Maybe something like your pet deal 15/20/25/30% more damage for each of your dots on the target?
 
Revisiting pets would be nice. I was under the assumption that when Runic pets were released they weren't very well received by the staff because they could tank well and had a lot of health. So the AC was stripped away, making them giant health sacs that couldn't really tank unless 3 dedicated healers were just chain healing it. So it happened, and their health was also sharply reduced. Now they are currently very bad in almost all regard. I would really like to see some love come back in the form of HP alone. Getting hit by things like Whirlwind or AoEs, and being killing shouldn't be happening if they are relied on/ are to be relied on heavily for the class they are attached. It is pretty sad when I see classes release swarm pets (necro AA, beast runic, mage AA, etc) and even a small AE just kills them all. Ranger pets too, but they aren't really swarm.

TL;DR - Give pets more HP, especially if they are supposed to be a rather large part of the class.
 
Thade said:
Yes. Bst's do need their own dots. Make them melee range is probably not necessary, being able to cast them when you have to run away from things is useful (4.3, blazewind, etc). They need to all be faster cast (probably half a second, same with their cold nuke line as well) to not butcher their melee damage. I don't have a great solution for pets. There needs to be some pet between 63 and Runic (probably some sort of tier 6-7 ish quest?) and maybe a tome that is actually a useful pet dps increase tome for bsts. Maybe something like your pet deal 15/20/25/30% more damage for each of your dots on the target?
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If bst dots became quick cast, shorter duration, they could become beneficial. Venom of the wild's duration is good, it just needs a quicker cast, and a tad more damage to make it worth the mana wasted on it, or a cheaper mana cost. Plague takes way too long to cast (I know it is shared), for too little damage, and most xp fights don't last as long as the spell's duration. I think that is a great idea for a third tome, one that we don't even have a ph for yet. It would give a use for casting our dots, and give a nice dps boost to the pet. But unless its survivability is boosted, it will be another wasted tome.
For the record, I think that is at least five of us now that have said a quest pet in the t6 range is needed. It is right around there that aoe's and whirlwinds start ruining the beast's pet. Perhaps a quest giver near Lady Shaina, requiring her sanctuary key to talk to, and asking for drops off t4- t6 planar mobs (please, no salves though).
 
Vitali from what I remember when we first got the runic pets on kjiel and idr who the first mage was anymore (I want to say sintasia?) they tanked about the same as the non runic pets. They just for some reason had like 4x the health of the relic mage pet.
 
I don't have a great solution for pets. There needs to be some pet between 63 and Runic (probably some sort of tier 6-7 ish quest?) and maybe a tome that is actually a useful pet dps increase tome for bsts. Maybe something like your pet deal 15/20/25/30% more damage for each of your dots on the target?
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I think it was Zaela that started a pet thread about 2 years ago or so about making all pets scale with their owner's stats or something. Was a real awesome idea that never went anywhere for some reason.
 
I was told to check out this thread cause it's re-active but all i'm currently seeing is non-bsts commenting, or ppl that "played bst for a few weeks or up to t4". Without reading (i'll read it tomorrow, it's late) i'm going to guess ur all wrong and Tierilo is right.

just gonna guess at some of the suggestions:

give pets more hp (won't matter, mitigation and resists are garbage. instead beef those up or give rank 2 archetype tomes)
turn bsts into shm (no, just shut up)
spread bitter cold recourse through other spells (why?)
give bsts a higher level nuke, something like glacial strike (yes, do this... cause our current high lvl nuke (not bitter cold) is the most useless spell for us aside from plague)
fix bst dots (venom of the wild is good, but dmg is low. plague = useless, don't even bother buying)
change spirit of tearing into something you'd actually use (literally no reason to use it atm, soothing all day errday)
get rid of reagant for savagery (i added that, cause it's annoying to have to load in a mage everytime i log in just for dots)
make cunning raidwide like bard songs (cunning only adds 7% on top of fiery anyways so i dunno why not)

the change to /s 5 stance was a good change, and breakng and then fixing /s 7 was also good (lol at insta dying in BQ elites to geomancers).

Really to truly fix the class, fix dots #1 priority. Bitter cold recourse is a thing that should be taken advantage of, and at high tier unless i need to use shout I have a spell gem that's useless, and i'd like to fill that w/ another dot or DD. My setup atm is, Abyss ear clicky dot, murk blowgun, Sharn'ree glove clicky, bitter cold, venom of the wild. that's my dot dmg. spam bitter cold and kick and reapply dots as necessary. hope that rage of the wild procs from bracer. bitter cold recourse is GOOD! but it's used almost entirely on clicky dots, which makes me confused.

As for a DD, yeah, that'd be baller too, high dmg, but also long ass recast (if u also add in a dot) so u have to choose. Can't do both. You going the mile or is this gonna be a quick snipe?

I can see why they removed the 40k+hp from Runic 2 pets, cause of /s 7, but the way it stands right now, beastlords go from lvl 63 pet (anyone can get, i saw 2 of those spells drop today while xping), to a pet that requires you to get up to the 4th floor of a Tier 11 raid zone and beat the big bad iksar/skeleton/ghost (strat leaks). What's the difference? 5k hp and 20dps. The hp is basically useless, it just means that I can take out CH gear unless I really need to tank stance or split my dps to handle adds, and the 20dps is pretty much a slap in the face for all the hard work.

I have more stuff I'd like to say about stances but i wanted to leave that for a separate post, and atleast read what Tierilo said first before I agree/disagree.
 
easy fix, rank 2 archetype tomes, change bitter cold recourse 10% more, increase venom of the wild dmg SLIGHTLY. it's 212 base now, make it like 260-270. something minor.

also, can we go back to the original /s 7 stance. the way it used to be was if pet was taking dmg, we wouldn't. now, the dmg is shared both ways, but the PROBLEM w/ that is, when the pet takes dmg, it's mitigated basically 0%, so I as a bst take fully unmitigated dmg, which makes it horribly detrimental to be in this stance. make it 1 way, my dmg gets 50% to pet. pet to me is bad, unmitigated dmg horrible idea.
 
daenar_sod said:
also, can we go back to the original /s 7 stance. the way it used to be was if pet was taking dmg, we wouldn't. now, the dmg is shared both ways, but the PROBLEM w/ that is, when the pet takes dmg, it's mitigated basically 0%, so I as a bst take fully unmitigated dmg, which makes it horribly detrimental to be in this stance. make it 1 way, my dmg gets 50% to pet. pet to me is bad, unmitigated dmg horrible idea.
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S7 definitely needs to go back to the way it was - it sucks taking your pet's unmitigated damage.
 
I agree with Daenar that venom of the wild needs a small boost in damage and an additional 2 ticks for the mana it costs to use. While it would be nice to also have a higher lvl nuke, it would be much more beneficial to change rage of the wild to allow it to stack/continue, so keep it at 7 ticks, and allow the beast to cast it again on and it will continue the splurt damage from where it left off. This might of course require a certain bracer proc to be changed, but add a fun playing aspect and useful boss dps.

As far as runic pack of the hunter is concerned, while i do think that 990mana is insane for a bunch of <500hp pets that die instantly in any AE fight and only do aprox. 70 dps all together, I don't see that cost being reduced, but please at the very least make the runic 1 proc bracers... preferably detrimental. I think that is a fair trade to ask for bracer procs for spending 990 mana.
 
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