Bard Twisting

Zerghead

Zerghead

Dalayan Beginner
Since I got onto Shards of Dalaya I have been having a great time: old world models, moderate difficulty and on top of all this, it is practically a whole new world where I know nothing about which is exactly how things were when I started playing original EQ. So first off: great work guys, what you've done here is amazing!

But..

Bard class: Song twisting. Why has that been changed? Can there not be an option to set to melody mode and have regular as well? The versatility of the Bard has been greatly hindered because of this new song system and is probably the only thing that just "urks" me when I log on to play. The best thing about playing the Bard class was song twisting, having 4 beneficial songs up at once, having an add and dropping one to mez/cc, lul-pulling, dotting, selos, etc.. instead of this whole EndSong business. (Which I still dont get because when I use it ALL my songs go poof..)

Can anything be done to add a /cm Melody on/off setting? Anything, just to get original twisting back!
 
Songs were balanced to have 2 melody songs up, and 2 detrimental songs going at the same time. Bards still have a decent amount of versatility and are a fun class once you fully grasp how the system works. There won't be an option to turn twisting "on", but the way it is set up makes you not have to bash as many buttons as you would have, but you still have to hit a ton of different songs at 65 (Song of Dawn, 2 dots, 2 nukes, switching melody songs, etc). It is different than Live, but I don't think it is any worse due to the power level of some of the songs we can twist.
 
What Felyn said.

I can't comment on why the decision was initially made (arthritis maybe??), but I can say that the songs are in no way balanced for traditional testing at this point.
 
Multiple reasons. Some include:
- Sparing bard fingers
- Making it so one bard in a raid couldn't cover every good bard song (and thus opening up raids to more bards)
- Easier balancing since bard power doesn't depend on how fast you can repeatedly click hotkeys
- Opened the class up to people who don't enjoy twisting (bard was the least played class before the changes)
etc
 
I think you might be a little confused about how /cm endsong works as well. If you want to cut pulsing detrimentals you can simply crouch to immediately end the effect of the last one cast.

At higher levels you can easily be twisting four songs with the inclusion of brusco's.
 
Zerghead said:
Was bard song always raid-wide?
Click to expand...

Some songs are, some are not.

If you enjoyed the flexibility and skill (extreme finger dexterity and tolerance of RMD) required to play a bard well on live, you'll find the bard class here to be rather dumbed down. Their songs are balanced for the new system, but they are no where near as demanding to be the best you can be as they were on live.

RIP Guiardo
 
Wiz said:
Multiple reasons. Some include:
- Sparing bard fingers
- Making it so one bard in a raid couldn't cover every good bard song (and thus opening up raids to more bards)
- Easier balancing since bard power doesn't depend on how fast you can repeatedly click hotkeys
- Opened the class up to people who don't enjoy twisting (bard was the least played class before the changes)
etc
Click to expand...

- Bard Fingers: After playing and twisting with a bard for a while your fingers twist by themselves, and it helps you develop "über micro" making you a better player

- Raid: Did bard songs always affect the entire raid? Because I see a better solution to "More Bards per Raid" if you keep bard songs in group

- People who don't enjoy twisting: Laziness. With the melody on/off setting you can give these people what they want but because they aren't willing to put in some effort in playing their class they get the detriment of limited enhancement with 2 Ben/Det songs. Bard class is one of few that required skill to play and seeing them get "****'d" on this server breaks my heart.


Nodnal said:
Songs were balanced to have 2 melody songs up, and 2 detrimental songs going at the same time. Bards still have a decent amount of versatility and are a fun class once you fully grasp how the system works. There won't be an option to turn twisting "on", but the way it is set up makes you not have to bash as many buttons as you would have, but you still have to hit a ton of different songs at 65 (Song of Dawn, 2 dots, 2 nukes, switching melody songs, etc). It is different than Live, but I don't think it is any worse due to the power level of some of the songs we can twist.
Click to expand...

- Versatility: Bards have been crippled.
ex: Lull pulling: Cast lull on mob, the song continues to play. Whether or not the mod is pacified, the song continues to play and has a chance to be resisted ending in aggro (So much for CC pull). When you crouch to end the song, the affect goes away (no matter how many mobs you pacify, the effect goes away on all the mobs).

- Button Bashing: No bashing, just a simple rotation and repetition; as mentioned earlier, your fingers do the work for you. And as for "a ton of different songs" ... It's still just 2 Ben 2 Det.
 
All these discussions and arguments already happened when the change went in. You can search the forums if you want to read it all, but it's pretty much a done deal so arguing it all over again isn't a great use of your time. Some people love it; some people hate it. Regardless, the best you can do at this point is accept it and move on.
 
On Live, playing a good bard also meant having a decent internet connection and not getting even the slightest bit of lag.

If you didn't have the above, forget about twisting 5 songs. Forget about 4 songs. You MAY be able to twist 3, until the lag hits.

This was true on anything worse than the (current) highest speed DSL available in my region of the US. (Thus, despite enjoying the class, I stopped playing it on Live since my region, at the time, didn't have the capacity for ANYONE to play one effectively.)

A friend didn't start playing one until he moved 2 hours away to a large city, which actually had cable internet.

As for the power balance, bards on Live were broken due to their ability to have so many things running at once. (The original developers never meant for anymore than "ONE" song to be active at any one time per bard.) But, welcome to Live and the word "Balance."
 
Our higher level nukes don't pulse, so you can technically twist in 2 other songs with your dots. Like I said, its just different, but the power level is still the same due to the balancing of our songs.
 
Zerghead said:
- Bard Fingers: After playing and twisting with a bard for a while your fingers twist by themselves, and it helps you develop "über micro" making you a better player
Click to expand...

I don't think players should be required to develop carpal tunnel syndrome to play a computer game.

- Raid: Did bard songs always affect the entire raid? Because I see a better solution to "More Bards per Raid" if you keep bard songs in group
Click to expand...

Making songs group only would dilute their effectiveness and be a huge nerf to bards.

- People who don't enjoy twisting: Laziness. With the melody on/off setting you can give these people what they want but because they aren't willing to put in some effort in playing their class they get the detriment of limited enhancement with 2 Ben/Det songs. Bard class is one of few that required skill to play and seeing them get "****'d" on this server breaks my heart.
Click to expand...

I plain disagree that not wanting to hit four buttons in a repeating sequence constantly and being unable to chat in groups because of this is 'laziness'.

- Versatility: Bards have been crippled.
ex: Lull pulling: Cast lull on mob, the song continues to play. Whether or not the mod is pacified, the song continues to play and has a chance to be resisted ending in aggro (So much for CC pull). When you crouch to end the song, the affect goes away (no matter how many mobs you pacify, the effect goes away on all the mobs).
Click to expand...

Exactly how much experience do you have on this server to claim that 'bards have been crippled'? Ask any bard with a little more experience if they feel crippled.

I think you need to take a step back and stop being so upset about this, this change has been in effect for years and the absolute majority clearly like it as shown by the vastly increased % of bards in the general population.

It's not going to be reversed.
 
GuiardoTuneweaver said:
Some songs are, some are not.

If you enjoyed the flexibility and skill (extreme finger dexterity and tolerance of RMD) required to play a bard well on live, you'll find the bard class here to be rather dumbed down. Their songs are balanced for the new system, but they are no where near as demanding to be the best you can be as they were on live.

RIP Guiardo
Click to expand...

I'll never quite understand the argument that learning to press buttons in a repeating sequence quickly somehow constitutes skill.

I can type about 120wpm, does that make me an elite gamer?
 
Wiz said:
I'll never quite understand the argument that learning to press buttons in a repeating sequence quickly somehow constitutes skill.
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That's why I defined skill as "extreme finger dexterity and tolerance of RMD". It is A skill. Just like pushing colored buttons in a particular sequence is skill in playing Simon.

Your "skill" at pressing buttons in a repeating sequence quickly determined how good a bard you were, and the difference between "good" bards who could do this (which admittedly did require a good internet connection) and "bad" bards who could not was vastly bigger than on SoD. It doesn't take any skill and very little attention to start up 2 beneficial and 2 detrimental songs and let them run, which most any raid would be happy with. They're much more bot-able on SoD.

Both systems have their plusses and minuses, and each appeal to different people.
 
/agee wiz I think all classes require skill. Try keeping 6 mobs mezzed at once, not getting aggro when mez breaks, and tell me it requires no skill.
 
I disliked the changes at first. It didn't help that there were a few annoying bugs at the time either.

Years later I can say that I would very much hate to go back to the old way. Not because I have become lazy, but once you know this system very well you can play your character so much better than you could once you were able to twist a lot of songs.
Perfectly manipulating the melody feature grants you so much more benefits than perfectly timing your twist in the old system.
 
iaeolan said:
I disliked the changes at first. It didn't help that there were a few annoying bugs at the time either.

Years later I can say that I would very much hate to go back to the old way. Not because I have become lazy, but once you know this system very well you can play your character so much better than you could once you were able to twist a lot of songs.
Perfectly manipulating the melody feature grants you so much more benefits than perfectly timing your twist in the old system.
Click to expand...

This sums up my thoughts perfectly.
 
I played a bard on live too and was a little surprised about the changes. But I've accepted them now and actually prefer some of them. My only real complaint is that with the 2 positive songs, well, by default one of those spots is taken up by haste (because a)it's a good song to play, and b)if you don't play it people get crabby), which pretty much leaves just 1 song.

Now every bard I've grouped has played either mana/hp as the 2nd, or the other haste song that stacks, which to me is a waste of potential as to what the class is capable of.

It's a different way to play the class for sure, but I think if you can really understand what songs would be good for when, then you can really help your group. So I think there's a bit more strategy in song choices here.
 
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