Bard detrimental song stacking/overwriting

[stickupkid]

Currently as we all know two bards cannot stack any detrimentals and they always overwrite eachother without looking at which bard has the higher mod.

That the debuff songs not stack is wanted and fine because you could just mega debuff mobs otherwise, but for the second bard its a pretty big loss to not be able to use his relic chant. As the concern is the debuff part and not the damage dealing part of the song I was hopin that there could be a way to make at least the damage dealing parts stack with eachother, while using the debuff part only from the higher modded bard if there is a difference. This could be achieved by splitting up the chants into two components where the debuff part is 2nd spell which is autocasted once the chant is landed on the mob.

At the moment im not in the situation that I have step back on my songs, but I been in this position before and its frustrating not to be able to play all your songs because you are the less geared/tomed bard in the raid/group - and that you have to pay close attention not to overwrite your fellow bards songs.

For groups where dps of the single person counts more this would having 2 bards be way less of a dps tradeoff as it often is now. The problem is that when 2 bards are in the same group/raid, that the second bard loses a substantial amount of his "standalone dps".

The other suggestion I have is to add a check when two bards try to cast the same detrimental on the mob and give the higher modded song a higher stacking priority so it doesnt get overwritten. It doesnt happen so often, since all bards know that if they have the lower mod that the other bard is on the duty to play, but still there are some situations where its really disturbing that whoever casted last gets his song to stick. For example: Modded beneficial songs like po4/regen or chants when 2 bards play it (usually by accident) or when 2 bards use the pbae dot to hit more targets but then the dots of the higher damage bard gets overwritten on some of the mobs.. same with the ae snare etc.

Hope this could be looked at some day, when there is some time on the dev's hands.

 

[Allielyn]

Once upon a time both bards' DoTs would land if you had the same modifier. But I don't think that's the case anymore.

I have a solution in a balanced (not overpowered) detrimental-based archaic song (expanding the toolset means you don't both have to use the same tools!), but Woldaff has his heart set on Song of Sustenance =(.

Also, a second bard becomes much less useful on raid fights that don't have an AE component/need resists, since Hymn of the Savior was still not working last I checked.

Sorry, I don't mean to derail, just a few related issues.

 

[Cyzaine]

There seems to be a bug, concerning Necromancer DoT's scitterpox and splurt not landing from a second (or 3rd) necromancer. I can't help but think that if I a solution to this conflict, it'll accidentally let the bard DoT's stack as well. I'll keep you posted in any case.

 

[Nodnal]

Once upon a time both bards' DoTs would land if you had the same modifier. But I don't think that's the case anymore.

I have a solution in a balanced (not overpowered) detrimental-based archaic song (expanding the toolset means you don't both have to use the same tools!), but Woldaff has his heart set on Song of Sustenance =(.

Also, a second bard becomes much less useful on raid fights that don't have an AE component/need resists, since Hymn of the Savior was still not working last I checked.

Sorry, I don't mean to derail, just a few related issues.

Yeah, multiple bards on raids right now is pretty bad. There are a few encounters where two are great, but never three. Most of the times, due to the issues addressed above, one bard is plenty.

If our dots could stack (make the resist debuff and damage separate somehow?), then it would do a lot for using more than one bard in a group or a raid. I would also like to see something adjusted to our beneficial songs to give multiple bards more of a use on raids, but not something that would imbalance the bard class (since we can only use 2 beneficials at once anyways).

 

[Allielyn]

It has long been considered 'bad' for bard DoTs to stack due to the debuff component, but I'd like to challenge this assumption. As I understand it, all mobs (or, at least all raid mobs) have a debuff cap beyond which no additional debuffs are effective. This cap is quite easily reached by shaman Malosini and bard DoTs, among the many other debuff spells available on a raid. It is for this reason that one of our other bard detrimental songs, Occlusion of Sound, isn't used (though otherwise it could be a great option, since the DoTs won't stick).

Part of me doesn't feel it a great hindrance that bard DoTs don't stack as bards are primarily a utility class and not a DPS class. With that reasoning it would make sense for a 2nd bard in a raid to bring more detrimental song utility. Unfortunately, the current detrimental songs available to bards in the raid game flatly declare that about all they can do is dps via DoTs and Nukes, with the occasional dumping of aggro with jolt and pre-slowing. (This is of course because all their other detrimental songs are obsolete when the parent classes show up). With this perspective the solution is to fix the problem by adding detrimental utility.

If the developers cannot come up with detrimental utility (this is not an insult: it's a problem the devs and playerbase have considered for years), or if they disagree about bards' general class roles as utility instead of dps, they should then address the myth of "bard debuffs too OP to stack" head-on and just let them.

 

[Nodnal]

As I agree the debuff component would not be an issue at the high end since Tash+Malo+Bard song = 1 in the specific resist, the issue comes in with lower end stuff (new 65s or below 65), where the stacking becomes a lot more powerful. I think that should be taken into consideration as well, and not just for the high end (even though it only really becomes an issue on raids).

Also, Occlusion doesn't even stack with Relic Dot, so there is no reason to sing it at all unless you hit it before you start casting RDot, which is usually the incorrect choice after debuffs.

 

[Allielyn]

Mostly I'm operating on the assumption that at the lower end, particularly in groups, you only have one bard. In lower end raids, the mobs still have a debuff cap. (I'm pretty sure that mobs have a debuff cap as well but that's unverified).

Also, consider that the debuff component also scales with bard mod, so a lower end bard with a lower end mod would debuff for a *lot* less.

 

[Nodnal]

I agree that it is not a huge deal, but it still scales differently. At the very high end, our resist debuffs do nothing when stacked, while in the low end, 2 bards could team up to take down a mobs resist to a 1 (using JI), where they could only get it down to a 5 with one bard.

 

[Allielyn]

Since JI is level dependent and a relative quantity as discussed in the last Jayla's thread, I'd really need to know specifics here.

As it is I am not convinced that two bards at the low end fighting a level appropriate mob would be able to destroy that mob's resist levels in such a way that is overpowered, especially in comparison to say, a bard and a shaman or a bard and a mage in the same group.

 

[Nodnal]

If it is overpowered or not is definitely up to the devs. Do they want 1 class that can take down 1 resist, or different classes that can take down some of all resists? Two bards using the same dot on lower tiers doesn't seem like an issue to me personally, but that doesn't mean that is where the devs want it.

 

[Manguadi]

c-c-c-c-c-combo breaker.

Also I think the mob debuff cap is 30 debuffs, but don't quote me.

 

[stickupkid]

but there is a cap on how much each stat/resist is debuffable afaik - no idea though where that cap is set at.

 

[Allielyn]

but there is a cap on how much each stat/resist is debuffable afaik - no idea though where that cap is set at.

Right, that's what I was referring to. Just because you can stack 4 resist debuffs doesn't mean that the total resists will actually lower by that much.

 

[Silvernine]

Allielyn - Keep in mind, these issues are in addition to bard not being able to proc their weapons while singing. While I think bard are well-balanced in solo and single group play, in raids, they are disappointing when you have more than one. So in total, the main issue I see with the bard is ***low comparative DPS coupled with low utility***

The bard, as you stated, is a utility class. It designed to neither put out huge DPS numbers nor be the best at anything it does. It supplements other classes' strengths and fills in their weaknesses. The benefit of having more than one bard has huge diminishing returns, unparalleled with any other class (except for maybe last year’s enchanter). Other classes have distinctive roles, even when paired up with another of the same class.

The reason for these diminishing returns is because 1) our detrimental songs do not stack; and 2) many of our detrimental songs that provide bards with their utility, are overwritten by other classes’ abilities (such as slow, weakness, resists, etc).

However, I must respectfully disagree with you to allow our detrimental songs to stack with other bards. If you had three or four bards, and allowed their detrimental spells to stack, it could result in the trivialization of content. To trivialize content, I believe, is the developers main fear in this regard.

Instead, in my opinion, a better solution is to include with high-end determinate songs, an ‘overhaste’ aspect. Similar to the ‘Tribes’ line of beneficial songs, our detrimental songs will slightly enhance an existing, more powerful, debuff currently on the MOB. For example, Requiem of Time, or its Relic equivalent, will slow the MOB by 60% if there are no more powerful slows, such as the Shaman’s Spirit Sleep, are currently active. If an existing slow is active, the song will slow the monster and additional 10%. This formula could be used for other detrimental utility spells such as Occlusion of Sound, snare-line, etc. In other words, let bards use their full utility package.

There are just so many great songs that sit in the spell book unused.

 

[Nodnal]

First of all, lowering one resist to a mob does not "trivialize content". Second of all, 10% extra to the highest slow would be too much, and 60% by itself is obviously too much. Even though I like the idea of if/then clauses on spells, I am not sure it is possible to make a spell have more than one effect given contingencies.

I would also like to point out that our slows and other debuffs do indeed stack with other classes. However, they do not take affect if a higher level effect is on the mob. Why is this relevant? When that class dies, or that debuff fades, our debuff is still on it. There are plenty of times I have kept slow on a mob before the shaman can slow it, or between reslows.

Realistically, bards have plenty of utility, and that is not an issue here. The issue is the fact that multiple bards do not stack well. If you want to make a thread about giving bards more utility and how we stack with other classes, by all means. Letting the damage of our dots stack, and even the resist debuffs would not trivialize any content, and from Allie and I's discussion above, would only affect the low to mid game slightly.

The biggest issue with dots not stacking is not being able to stack our Rdot. Our relic dot makes up for a huge chunk of bards overall dps. We are not a DPS class, I agree, but we shouldn't be punished for having multiple bards on a raid.

 

[Allielyn]

Allielyn - Keep in mind, these issues are in addition to bard not being able to proc their weapons while singing. While I think bard are well-balanced in solo and single group play, in raids, they are disappointing when you have more than one. So in total, the main issue I see with the bard is ***low comparative DPS coupled with low utility***

I could swear from the tone of your post that you are disagreeing with me, but it looks like you hit nearly all the points I did.
(Aside from proc weapons which don't really have anything to do with multiple bards, and was fixed anyhow.)

The bard, as you stated, is a utility class. It designed to neither put out huge DPS numbers nor be the best at anything it does. It supplements other classes' strengths and fills in their weaknesses. The benefit of having more than one bard has huge diminishing returns, unparalleled with any other class (except for maybe last year’s enchanter). Other classes have distinctive roles, even when paired up with another of the same class.

The reason for these diminishing returns is because 1) our detrimental songs do not stack; and 2) many of our detrimental songs that provide bards with their utility, are overwritten by other classes’ abilities (such as slow, weakness, resists, etc).

Yup, I agree.

However, I must respectfully disagree with you to allow our detrimental songs to stack with other bards. If you had three or four bards, and allowed their detrimental spells to stack, it could result in the trivialization of content. To trivialize content, I believe, is the developers main fear in this regard.

Trivialize how? The only 'trivialization' that I have heard in this thread is the flat out falsehood that the debuffing would be out of control unbalanced. As I addressed earlier, the inherent resist debuff cap prevents this.

Instead, in my opinion, a better solution is to include with high-end determinate songs, an ‘overhaste’ aspect. Similar to the ‘Tribes’ line of beneficial songs, our detrimental songs will slightly enhance an existing, more powerful, debuff currently on the MOB. For example, Requiem of Time, or its Relic equivalent, will slow the MOB by 60% if there are no more powerful slows, such as the Shaman’s Spirit Sleep, are currently active. If an existing slow is active, the song will slow the monster and additional 10%. This formula could be used for other detrimental utility spells such as Occlusion of Sound, snare-line, etc. In other words, let bards use their full utility package. There are just so many great songs that sit in the spell book unused.

I agree with you 100% that a better solution would be to add more interesting and useful detrimental spells to our lineup, increasing utility (even at the cost of DPS - because we are a utility class). I have suggested several of these to the dev team, including what I think is a bang-up Archaic idea. I do like your idea of having synergistic spell/song combos, and the numbers can of course be tweaked for balance. However.

I have brought these same points up with the dev team multiple times and I have never gotten the impression that they are interested in changing the status quo =(. So on that note, I would advocate the completely lazy DoT stacking change if only to promote the usefulness of 2 bards in a raid because the only argument against it is based on a falsehood about the way resist debuffs stack.