Bard Changes
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GuiardoTuneweaver
Staff Emeritus
Is there any possiblity of getting flexibility on how songs are allocated between offensive and defensive? In general, if I'm in a group with at least another mele, I did most of my twisting between group beneficial songs.
If I'm soloing or in a group without another mele, I did most of my twisting between my DOTs to do enough damage to maintain reasonable aggro, since haste and buff songs don't do a lot for my solo mele output. I was able, singing my 3 dots (2 aoe, 1 targeted) plus mana/health and swapping instruments, to do 80 pts per tick of damage in addition to a charmed pet. The way things are now, I can either do less than 30 with one dot and one instrument, or switch to weapons and do around 10 per tick plus my pitiful weapon output, plus sing 1 extra beneficial song. Things die MUCH slower.
If your main concern was for our carpal tunnel syndrome, what about giving us 4 slots to allocate as appropriate (since this is the number of songs we can consistently and reliably twist)? This, however, makes bards easy to bot and trivializes the skill of players who play bards well.
If your concern is bards being overpowered, what about shortening the song durations such that we can only consistently twist 3 instead of 4 songs?
With the current changes, we're overall less flexible, less useful to solid groups (less buffage), less useful to rag-tag groups, and extremely inefficient to solo.
The people who play bards enjoy the class because of the flexibility, utility, and even for the skill and attention that it takes to play the class well in spite of, and even because of the coordination of button presses and clicks it takes to twist smoothly.
I'm hoping many of the other issues here (bash, songs stopping, refreshing, etc) are just bugs and will be fixed.
Gui
If I'm soloing or in a group without another mele, I did most of my twisting between my DOTs to do enough damage to maintain reasonable aggro, since haste and buff songs don't do a lot for my solo mele output. I was able, singing my 3 dots (2 aoe, 1 targeted) plus mana/health and swapping instruments, to do 80 pts per tick of damage in addition to a charmed pet. The way things are now, I can either do less than 30 with one dot and one instrument, or switch to weapons and do around 10 per tick plus my pitiful weapon output, plus sing 1 extra beneficial song. Things die MUCH slower.
If your main concern was for our carpal tunnel syndrome, what about giving us 4 slots to allocate as appropriate (since this is the number of songs we can consistently and reliably twist)? This, however, makes bards easy to bot and trivializes the skill of players who play bards well.
If your concern is bards being overpowered, what about shortening the song durations such that we can only consistently twist 3 instead of 4 songs?
With the current changes, we're overall less flexible, less useful to solid groups (less buffage), less useful to rag-tag groups, and extremely inefficient to solo.
The people who play bards enjoy the class because of the flexibility, utility, and even for the skill and attention that it takes to play the class well in spite of, and even because of the coordination of button presses and clicks it takes to twist smoothly.
I'm hoping many of the other issues here (bash, songs stopping, refreshing, etc) are just bugs and will be fixed.
Gui
Change us back please!!! 99% of the bards don't care about having to click songs and continuously twist them. It seems stupid to revamp all the bards after so many people have put a lot of time into them and liked them just the way they were. We are soo gimped now. Even if those bugs listed get fixxed, we are still gimped. Nowhere near the bards we used to be.
S
Sentari
Guest
I know this is a very bad question, and I pretty-much already know the answer to it...but can I trade my 41 bard for another level 41 character? Indeed, after the new changes, it doesnt even feel like I'm playing the same class. It proves to be an almost fundamentally different character, and it is not what I wanted when I first made a bard. I think, to some distant (and maybe twisted) degree of fairness, you might find it in your hearts to allow bards the option to switch classes, with an equal level, given this sudden change of play style. I dont even think equipment would be necessary (just let us give all our stuff to our friends first ). I undesrstand if this is out of the question, but if it is at all a possibility, please consider it. Also, I'm sure its not too bad for some people, but I only have 1 character (2-boxing just doesnt feel right to me), and the idea of having to make another character makes my stomach cringe. As I said before, I dont have a lot of time to play, and 41 seems, to me at least, to be a very high level to attain.
Then again, if these changes are truely experimental, and there is a chance that things will go back to the way they originally were, forget everything I just wrote. Yet, if you are fairly certain that the bard casting will remain more-or-less the way it is now, let us know if there's a possibility that we could trade classes, and if not, maybe I can get a friend to give me one of his alternate characters, heh.
). I undesrstand if this is out of the question, but if it is at all a possibility, please consider it. Also, I'm sure its not too bad for some people, but I only have 1 character (2-boxing just doesnt feel right to me), and the idea of having to make another character makes my stomach cringe. As I said before, I dont have a lot of time to play, and 41 seems, to me at least, to be a very high level to attain.Then again, if these changes are truely experimental, and there is a chance that things will go back to the way they originally were, forget everything I just wrote. Yet, if you are fairly certain that the bard casting will remain more-or-less the way it is now, let us know if there's a possibility that we could trade classes, and if not, maybe I can get a friend to give me one of his alternate characters, heh.
I completely agree with this also.
Before, as a bard I was able to twist four songs, I could choose as I wanted between offensive and defensive, in groups or solo, and if I was feeling lazy I could go down to three songs. Normally in groups I would sing only defensive songs, as offensive can be resisted, and that is annoying. Nerfing us down to two defensive songs sucks. Solo, I make use of only one defensive song (selo's) and a combination of up to three offensive songs including chants and charms and mezzes in emergencys. (sometimes using no defensive and only offensive, being snare and chant and charms)
Basically, allowing only one offensive song seriously nerfs a bards solo abilitys, and allowing only two defensive songs seriously nerfs a bards grouping abilitys.
Also, that thing with the effect of all songs wearing off imediately upon sitting or being stunned is annoying as hell, and I hope its an unintentional bug.
Please please please please please change bards back to the way they were. Give me carpal tunnel, if I cared I wouldnt play a bard.
Nerfing classes has always been looked down on by those who play it and others never really understand. I play a bard for the twisiting. Sometimes roll playing games are just too slow. Playing a bard is not a point and click class it takes manual dexterity and constant control. I played one on live and I played one on SOD. On live there wasn't a class that could be a bard for soloing out in the open. Sure a mage or a wizard could drop something quicker but a bard could do it constantly. There was no down time. If this is about nerfing bards to make them less powerful I am sure the intentions were good.
Some ideas that pop into my head right away, but keep in mind. Since I heard about the changes I haven't touched him for fear of losing interest.
Once a bard sings their song the effects last a little while which is just like a spell but shorter. I would say that if a bard can have 1 buff song up at once ever class should only get 1. 1 cleric buff or 1 druid buff or 1 shaman, etc.
If bash cancels all song effects it should cancel all spell effects.
If the bard is limited to 1 dot everyone should be limited to 1 dot and they should all be equal. If a 50 necro can dot for 500 a tick a bard should be able to do maybe half that since they can fight but can't have a pet since it appears you can't dot and charm at the same time. At level 50 a 60 point dot is usless. However I haven't made it to 50 yet so this one could be different.
I would say that if the changes are they way people say they are, just drop the bard. They don't seem like they would be to usefull at all. I wouldn't want one in my group. Maybe bring in the berserker from GOD or maybe add a new class. Otherwise it would be like taking the backstab from a thief or a pet from a mage. Other classes can do a much better job without all the dieing.
If you are just experimenting I do like the idea about the casting window. Have it so you can constantly twist through the window just by sitting there but allow bards to be able to cast single songs at the same time. It would just stop the casting window, sing the song they start on the window again. Even if there is a delay. I would much rather twist since I find it more interesting.
Someone mentioned something about groups not using 2 bards.
In my experience having more then 1 bard in a group is a good thing. Crowd control was a snap and with more dots and buffs flying around people stayed alive longer.
Some ideas that pop into my head right away, but keep in mind. Since I heard about the changes I haven't touched him for fear of losing interest.
Once a bard sings their song the effects last a little while which is just like a spell but shorter. I would say that if a bard can have 1 buff song up at once ever class should only get 1. 1 cleric buff or 1 druid buff or 1 shaman, etc.
If bash cancels all song effects it should cancel all spell effects.
If the bard is limited to 1 dot everyone should be limited to 1 dot and they should all be equal. If a 50 necro can dot for 500 a tick a bard should be able to do maybe half that since they can fight but can't have a pet since it appears you can't dot and charm at the same time. At level 50 a 60 point dot is usless. However I haven't made it to 50 yet so this one could be different.
I would say that if the changes are they way people say they are, just drop the bard. They don't seem like they would be to usefull at all. I wouldn't want one in my group. Maybe bring in the berserker from GOD or maybe add a new class. Otherwise it would be like taking the backstab from a thief or a pet from a mage. Other classes can do a much better job without all the dieing.
If you are just experimenting I do like the idea about the casting window. Have it so you can constantly twist through the window just by sitting there but allow bards to be able to cast single songs at the same time. It would just stop the casting window, sing the song they start on the window again. Even if there is a delay. I would much rather twist since I find it more interesting.
Someone mentioned something about groups not using 2 bards.
In my experience having more then 1 bard in a group is a good thing. Crowd control was a snap and with more dots and buffs flying around people stayed alive longer.
I think from what I've seen of the changes, a major problem wiz and staff have is people being able to bot the bards
(side note: these are my opinions and do not at all reflect the opinions of wiz and staff, this is merely my conjecture)
Basically, people that don't like twisting want bards to be able to have a melody type song thing so that they can twist songs without actually being present at their keyboard. On this point I agree with Costorin, twisting makes a bard fun, and dropping and adding songs from the twist on the fly is always a fun and challenging activity (namely for crowd control, or constantly resisting monster, or some other unforseen event that requires different songs)
So wiz and staff could make the bard melody thing, but then, people that duel box or bot bards would basically have a free bard buff bot following them around twisting four of their favorite buff songs, and the character that deals with unforseen circumstances would be the main, and not the bard.
As a compromise, it seems like wiz and staff would like to change bards so that they can be boted very easily, but he doesnt want a bunch of overpowered bots runnign around, so he gimpified the bard class.
As far as I can tell, these new changes would make the people that bot bards (read: high lvl bards) happy because they can now put two buffs up with no effort, where before it was one buff with no effort and a couple buffs with some macro effort.
I must implore wiz and staff, do not change the bard class so that it makes a better bot. Please be aware of those of us who do not like duel boxing, and like playing the class to its full potential. Changes that make us mash the keyboard less at the cost of our song singing potential are not good changes.
As a closer, thank you wiz and staff for producing such a good game, but fix warriors or something, dont fix bards.
(side note: these are my opinions and do not at all reflect the opinions of wiz and staff, this is merely my conjecture)
Basically, people that don't like twisting want bards to be able to have a melody type song thing so that they can twist songs without actually being present at their keyboard. On this point I agree with Costorin, twisting makes a bard fun, and dropping and adding songs from the twist on the fly is always a fun and challenging activity (namely for crowd control, or constantly resisting monster, or some other unforseen event that requires different songs)
So wiz and staff could make the bard melody thing, but then, people that duel box or bot bards would basically have a free bard buff bot following them around twisting four of their favorite buff songs, and the character that deals with unforseen circumstances would be the main, and not the bard.
As a compromise, it seems like wiz and staff would like to change bards so that they can be boted very easily, but he doesnt want a bunch of overpowered bots runnign around, so he gimpified the bard class.
As far as I can tell, these new changes would make the people that bot bards (read: high lvl bards) happy because they can now put two buffs up with no effort, where before it was one buff with no effort and a couple buffs with some macro effort.
I must implore wiz and staff, do not change the bard class so that it makes a better bot. Please be aware of those of us who do not like duel boxing, and like playing the class to its full potential. Changes that make us mash the keyboard less at the cost of our song singing potential are not good changes.
As a closer, thank you wiz and staff for producing such a good game, but fix warriors or something, dont fix bards.
The timer based bard songs act different (tested Ervaj's Lost Compositiion, Bombastic Bellow, and Kazumi's)
I can sing Kazumi's, divine aura takes effect, song runs 3 ticks, wears off, 6 seconds later the song starts again. I can even click off divine aura, twist a song, then with right timing, go divine again.
Bombastic bellow and Ervaj's will also repeat every tick. You can actually get close to a dual hit depending on where on the tick your initial song pulse lands. You can just let Bombastic bellow run and get damage + nice stun every tick til it's interrupted or mob dies.
I can sing Kazumi's, divine aura takes effect, song runs 3 ticks, wears off, 6 seconds later the song starts again. I can even click off divine aura, twist a song, then with right timing, go divine again.
Bombastic bellow and Ervaj's will also repeat every tick. You can actually get close to a dual hit depending on where on the tick your initial song pulse lands. You can just let Bombastic bellow run and get damage + nice stun every tick til it's interrupted or mob dies.
For reference, a 60 bard with a Darksull drum, 250pts spent in DoT specialization, and no aa's, do the following damage per tick twisting 4 chants:
123 Chant of flame
123 Chant of frost
76 Chant of poison
76 Chant of disease
I'm not a big fan of chant kiting. It's pretty slow going even with a 4 chant twist. It's something to do while I look for a group. It's hardly overpowering. I tried to chant some of the Silent Land mobs down before Wiz started this experiment. It takes a LONG time to 4 - chant one of those 4 armed freaks or say a Plagueland Scorpion down. With one chant, it will take forever and a day. With two chants it will merely take forever.
If you know your bard history, twisting was not intended. We were originally supposed to sing 1 song. But bards figured out a way to twist and all our songs were rebalanced and we've been balanced ever since based on our ability to twist and combine multiple songs. I'm trying to still play my beloved class, but I don't see how you are going to persue this experiment without vastly reducing our power level or completely redoing our songs and our function as well.
123 Chant of flame
123 Chant of frost
76 Chant of poison
76 Chant of disease
I'm not a big fan of chant kiting. It's pretty slow going even with a 4 chant twist. It's something to do while I look for a group. It's hardly overpowering. I tried to chant some of the Silent Land mobs down before Wiz started this experiment. It takes a LONG time to 4 - chant one of those 4 armed freaks or say a Plagueland Scorpion down. With one chant, it will take forever and a day. With two chants it will merely take forever.
If you know your bard history, twisting was not intended. We were originally supposed to sing 1 song. But bards figured out a way to twist and all our songs were rebalanced and we've been balanced ever since based on our ability to twist and combine multiple songs. I'm trying to still play my beloved class, but I don't see how you are going to persue this experiment without vastly reducing our power level or completely redoing our songs and our function as well.
S
Sentari
Guest
I hate to push the issue wiz, and I kinda assume that your non-respose was a no, but I would still like to hear it...can I trade classes? You gotta admit, bards are a whole new class, and just like many other things in life we have no control over, its not very fair. Yet maybe you could make a few fans of the server happy and let us (I only say "us" assuming there might be a few others that wouldn't mind, but it could just be me) switch...honestly I've heard around 95% negative feedback, and 5% positive for these changes...please let us switch. I'm not asking you to undo these minor "alterations" to my beloved class, just asking to let us put the pain behind us. I feel myself falling behind my friends in levels, and HALO 2 will suck the life right outta me if I have to start playing that again
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