Bane spells aren't worth it

Cyzaine

Cyzaine

Staff Emeritus
(This post has little to do with Banesway!, who sell fine and respectable spells indeed!)

This comes up every now and then but I still think its a problem. The newest thread that mentions it was http://forum.shardsofdalaya.com/showthread.php?t=14536 but as it had many other things, the bane discussion got left in the way side.

Problem - Bane spells are never worth casting at the 65+ level of play.

Bane spells are any spell spell that is effected by the Bane Enhancement focus item. As I mention the problem is in the 65 level spells (as a necro I used and loved the undead nukes leveling up), that pretty much limits the discussion to Dissolvement of Shadows and Disposement. Both spells do base 1625 damage and can insta kill mobs < level 44. Both spells have limited targets, so can not be used in every zone. Yet it is very rare for anyone who can cast these spells to give up a spell gem to them. The reasons why are explained below.

Magician will be my chosen example, as DPS is thier job (when not giving me summons) and their spell set lends itself easier to direct comparisons . Almost all of their other nukes do either better damage, faster damage, or better DPS overall. Take Storm of Steel for an example which does 1275 for 310 mana, giving it an 'efficency' of 4.11 damage/mana base and has no recast time. Disposement gets 4.22 damage/mana base and has a 12 second recast. And obviously the relic spells are much better than disposement (bladewind sits at 4.34) and have resist adjusts. Take into account magician rains, and you are left to wonder when a Magician should ever bother to use Disposement.

For all involved, if they do decide to cast it, they will tend to be very disappointed that they bothered. This is because these bane spells, spells specifically made to hurt one particular kind of creature, are resisted by said creatures, alot. This was not an issue with the pre 65 spells, but the kind of mobs you fight at 65 exp and raids zones virtually require a neg resist adjust to hit effectively. Given the 12 second recast time on these specialty spells, you will not have many opportunities to get lucky on the RNG.

This pretty much leaves the bane spells to rot away unless you are fighting something lower than level 44, which is either trivial for the pets (save the happy hammer) of the casters involved, or part of some sneaky raid encounter. That pretty much puts what should be handy tool into the same category as Destroy Subject.

I believe the Bane spells should be a strong nuke, used every now and again, that you can count on when fighting enemies that it can hit. The long recast time should remain, but a hefty resist modifier should be added to all the spells in the line, to fall in line with the spells intent. Lifetaps have a resist adjust of -200, and they heal and have no target restrictions. I don't believe adding a -100 to -150 adjust to the undead/elemental specific killing spells would be out of line.

What is interesting is some of the lower level spells actually do have a resist adjust, such as Dismiss Undead or Exile Elemental. Why the trend didn't continue is a mystery to me.

You ramble too much, give me a summary
Bane spells are situational, yet still not worth using even when they can be, they need:
*a negative resist adjust (-100 to -150 should do) to give damage you can count on
 
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I use Dissolvement of Shadows in HHK on Paxx, but I only do so because we kill so quickly that my DoTs do pretty terrible damage. Having this spell resisted is a huge waste and headache and makes me not even want to cast it. I think giving this spell a decent resist adjust would be just fine, as I ONLY ever use this spell in HHK (maybe Cata if I ever did that zone) and even reluctantly use it there. With the long recast, I usually can even cast it once per mob. Having it resisted makes my DPS even lower. Necros are only decent DPS in a few exp. zones (depending on who you are with and where you are at), so I do not think giving them an alternate for a couple zones in the game is a bad idea. I definitely agree that a resist mod is the only thing stopping this spell from making it more useful.

As far as Disposement goes...mages already have amazing nukes/rains, and all of the mages I have ever talked to say they never use this spell. If it is for lack of targets, or lack of efficiency, or both, they just do not use it. There are very few encounters they can even use this spell, so giving it a nice resist adjust might actually make mages memorize it for once.

So, in short...Dissolvement is only decent at the moment because it is necro "burst" DPS when fighting undead and Disposement is just terrible as is because mages can already use their mana more efficiently, even against summoned mobs. Adding resist adjusts to each of these would make them less mediocre.
 
Spiritplx said:
I use Dissolvement of Shadows in HHK on Paxx, but I only do so because we kill so quickly that my DoTs do pretty terrible damage. Having this spell resisted is a huge waste and headache and makes me not even want to cast it. I think giving this spell a decent resist adjust would be just fine, as I ONLY ever use this spell in HHK (maybe Cata if I ever did that zone) and even reluctantly use it there. With the long recast, I usually can even cast it once per mob. Having it resisted makes my DPS even lower. Necros are only decent DPS in a few exp. zones (depending on who you are with and where you are at), so I do not think giving them an alternate for a couple zones in the game is a bad idea. I definitely agree that a resist mod is the only thing stopping this spell from making it more useful.

As far as Disposement goes...mages already have amazing nukes/rains, and all of the mages I have ever talked to say they never use this spell. If it is for lack of targets, or lack of efficiency, or both, they just do not use it. There are very few encounters they can even use this spell, so giving it a nice resist adjust might actually make mages memorize it for once.

So, in short...Dissolvement is only decent at the moment because it is necro "burst" DPS when fighting undead and Disposement is just terrible as is because mages can already use their mana more efficiently, even against summoned mobs. Adding resist adjusts to each of these would make them less mediocre.
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Tbh disposement would still never be used even with a resist adjust addition. What I would suggest, either in addition to a minor resist adjust, or without it, would be to increase the destroy portion of the spell a bit. To a respectable level, so that the given mage, druid, necro, or cleric, can actually destroy at least light blues. The level on it is ridiculously low, and it's a fair bet that having the destroy portion on it at least for mages doesn't matter one bit, as mobs you can destroy there is a good chance you can oneshot with your regular nuke for less mana.

Here is my idea for revisions

Disposement
1) Destroy (max level 54)
2) Decrease hit points by 1625

Banisment stays the same (being max level destroy 44)

Similar revisions to the necro line.

Thus we would have the 4 aforementioned classes actually having a use for the spell, while still making it situational. Perhaps a lower level max destroy on the cleric/necro version as 54 might be too powerful considering certain zones. Though I would imagine the mobs I am thinking of are over that level, and I'm particularly certain that 90% of all elemental mobs (at least the ones I have in mind) are over that level as well. However at least it would get some use on tmaps and some encounters. Adding some more utility to the aforementioned classes. Perhaps a reagent required as well in the pearl/peridot variety.
 
It needs a bigger dmg/mana ratio due to its limited target range. Maybe 4.30 ish. Also, the recast time is absymal when you look at the resist rate, you are basically just wasting a spell gem.

I can put out more dps by chain casting nightfire, than wasting one spell gem that if I am lucky I get 2 cast of on a mob before it dies and usually one is resisted. The last time I tried to use it on a Tmap I gave up, and just loaded flamestrike for the ones that are immune to cold spells.

Relic: Nightfire
-25 Cold Adjust
BASE DMG: 1500
MANA COST: 370
DMG/MANA: 4.054
Cast Time: 5.50
Recast Time: 2.50

Disposement
- 0 Magic Adjust
BASE DMG: 1625
MANA COST: 385
DMG/MANA: 4.220
Cast Time: 5.50
Recast Time: 12.00
 
Zaela said:
Maybe it's just me, but I went to test Bane Enhancement 7 and noticed that it increases Dissolvement of Shadows' damage vs undead from 1852 base to 2500, an increase of about 35%, not 14%. A test of Disposement yielded exactly the same numbers. Something tells me Bane Enhancement is 5% per rank, not 2%.

Which kinda changes things a little, no? Not that I would be against adding a small minus resist adjust to these two spells, possibly.

Edit: tests with lower bane spells confirm the same numbers. Looks like someone was confused about the per rank value of bane enhancement when it went into fomelo. Must've thought it stacked with regular damage increment (21+14=35) which is not the case.
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For a while I thought that DI and BE stacked for them and then I realized that it wasn't the case one day when I tested it.

Even with BE at 30% it still wouldn't make them worth casting IMO. With a higher base damage it would make them more viable, though.
 
Even with +5%/Bane Rank, the spell is still VERY lack luster.

I only have personaly experience on SoD with the mage ones but I can tell you I have only "tryed" them out just to see how craptastic they were for myself.

I dont even own the 65th level spell since it was be a total waste of PP (I'll just wait till it drops in a group and not go out of my way to finish off my spell book).

Adding Negative Resist mod, and more damage, and less recast time would give this spell a use even if still limited.

Increaseing what it destroys could be interesting as well....
 
the long refresh would be fine with a decent resist adjust. Basically if I am going to use up a spell gem for a nuke that I can only cast 1 time for every 3 Relic nukes I damn well want it to land the majority of the time.
 
Woah déjà vu

Seriously I can't believe you guys start to ponder about this spell while it's been said multiple times on forums, even recently. Too bad I'm not a dev I suppose !
So yeah the fact that Bane Enhancement indeed makes it much stronger, ALL IT NEEDS is a goddamn resist adjust. -100 sounded totally fair, even -50 I'd be happy (this is the Scent of Terris modifier and it lands fairly well for what it does).
 
Zaela said:
Maybe it's just me, but I went to test Bane Enhancement 7 and noticed that it increases Dissolvement of Shadows' damage vs undead from 1852 base to 2500, an increase of about 35%, not 14%. A test of Disposement yielded exactly the same numbers. Something tells me Bane Enhancement is 5% per rank, not 2%.

Which kinda changes things a little, no? Not that I would be against adding a small minus resist adjust to these two spells, possibly.

Edit: tests with lower bane spells confirm the same numbers. Looks like someone was confused about the per rank value of bane enhancement when it went into fomelo. Must've thought it stacked with regular damage increment (21+14=35) which is not the case.
Click to expand...

Something there confuses me because I remember Luas nuking for under 2.5k with Dissolvement before I started tomes and had BE 7. To be fair it wasn't a whole lot less but noticable less then Nightfire for example. Dunno if something got changed or so, just throwing that out.


Other then that I'd love a resist mod, an increase in damage is not really necessary for us Necros to make it useful (I use it all the time in HK because my Dots would be a waste of mana) but that's just me.
 
Zaela said:
I can get behind a resist adjust--something like -25, -50 at most probably--but lessening recast, probably not. At base, Disposement is more mana efficient in terms of damage per mana than relic: nightfire and a little less efficient than relic: bladewind (and has the same casting time as both). With a couple ranks of damage increment and bane enhancement, Disposement becomes more efficient than bladewind as well. By the time you have damage increment 7 and bane enhancement 7, Disposement is doing 6.49 damage per mana (without magic focus or tomes) versus 5.98 for bladewind.

Bladewind and nightfire both have -25 resist adjusts, and I could see adding a similar adjust to Disposement, but note that it is already comparatively--if not more--mana efficient than both these relic spells. I doubt any developer would agree that a bought spell should be more effective than a relic, and so I cannot see this being made into a cast-at-will nuke, even if it is restricted to use in the planes for the most part. A boost in damage (and relative mana cost) might be an idea, but I think the recast will be here to stay.

An extra efficient nuke to throw between relic nukes, sure--a purchased replacement for raid-acquired relics versus relevant targets, probably not.
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I believe the spell would get more use with a -50 to -100 resist adjust even if the recast time was increased further to compensate. In an exp situation they are only cast once per mob (if at all) anyway, so keeping the recast time higher for those planar situations would not be a bad idea. We can't very well risk having druids think they can DPS efficiently, thats dangerous thinking.

I'd be hesitant to ask for the 'destroy' level component to increase, simply because the staff wouldn't likely want to have to go back and review all planar mobs to ensure no unintended consequences crop up.

But I do think that the intent of the spells was to have a 1 time, big damage, reliable nuke on the mobs it can work on. At the moment I don't think the bane spells really do that job at all.
 
Based on my own experience, Dissolvement of Shadows gets resisted a lot.

Necro DDs are pretty ass... We have Ancient: Lifebane, Cryotoxin, and Dissolvement. All of which have recasts, except lifebane. Ancient Lifebane is pretty good, but has low damage. Cryotoxin usually has one or both of its parts resisted, and Dissolvement is resisted I wanna say half the time I cast it.

I was in Highkeep with Aisling not too long ago, and he was malosining nearly everything, and dissolvement still was resisted maybe 40% of the time. A resist adjust would do the spell due justice, but I don't think lowering the recast is in order. The spell, when it crits, is a 5K nuke, so it's good already.

Just need to put it at about maybe -50 and we're good to go.
 
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Zaela said:
Maybe it's just me, but I went to test Bane Enhancement 7 and noticed that it increases Dissolvement of Shadows' damage vs undead from 1828 base to 2467, an increase of about 35%, not 14%. A test of Disposement yielded exactly the same numbers. Something tells me Bane Enhancement is 5% per rank, not 2%.

Which kinda changes things a little, no? Not that I would be against adding a small minus resist adjust to these two spells, possibly.

Edit: tests with lower bane spells confirm the same numbers. Looks like someone was confused about the per rank value of bane enhancement when it went into fomelo. Must've thought it stacked with regular damage increment (21+14=35) which is not the case.
Click to expand...

I kind of feel stupid for never testing this since I picked up Paxx. I asked Brimz one day if BE was lower because it stacked with DI7, and he said no and ONLY BE affected bane spells. This always boggled me that BE would be so much lower when it only affected a very small sample of spells. I will test this tonight or tomorrow to double check, but I am pretty sure it is more than 14%.

Changing the resist mod to -50 or more would be just what the doctor ordered. :toot:
 
I feel that adjusting the resist to -50 or more would still not make it that much more worth using a spellgem for. As a druid, I can already cast a 1.5k base dmg Wrath of the Skies spell (+ damage increment 5 = 1.9k), which isnt even relic and still get better dps. On summoned targets, I rarely go to the trouble to unmem one of my DD's and mem disposement just for the purpose of kiling the mob - Wrath of the Skies does the trick anyway.

Since Wrath of the Skies seems to never resist in the first place, I just don't feel like adding a -50 resist mod or even a -100 resist mod would make it worth it for most druids/mages.

As for Dissolvement of Shadows, I can't speak for necroes because I don't have a high level necromancer myself. I feel that if the recast delay was adjusted I *might* mem the spell when I'm in areas with large amounts of summoned mobs.

My spellbar typically looks like this:
1) CH
2) big heal
3) group heal
4) quick heal
5) another CH b/c i was too lazy to change my macros to put two ch's at top
6) DD
7) DD w/ alternate resist type
8) single root or rootcall

I'm not about to give up one of my DD's to mem disposement even with the -resist mod.

In summary, Disposement just isn't worth it, even with a resist mod. I don't miss that many casts to resists anyway, so a resist mod would not make it any more valuable.
 
I think a -25 resist adj on the L60 and -50 on the L65 banes are quite reasonable.
 
also, remember that the ONLY pally ae nuke is a bane nuke. Consecrate. Also not really worth having up even in HHK/Cata unless you're like the second pally, as main pally i'd rather have a couple single target aggro spells in addition to my ae aggro spells. but even if it were tweaked, it's just not worth having because pallies tank not nuke, and recast on it is too huge to use as an aggro draw (for comparison, ae stun has a 32 sec recast, and ae blind is 25 sec, consecrate, however, is 2 min.)

only tweaking i could see for consecration would be to make it an omg we're in trouble ae spell for undead only, i'd put it up for that use.

give it the -50 resist mod that the other L65 banes were offered and a small aggro draw. (it's recast isn't QUITE long enough to merit a big draw)

yes i realize it already has a -25 modifier, but i am not finding the spell landing all that often with my weak pally cha. and don't tell me to get more cha, it's hard enough to balance my stats with everything i need some of. Wave of Light has a -75 modifier.

it'd have the chance to eliminate some of the weaker mobs attacking your party, and it'd draw the remaining mobs on you. as it is, i often find myself scratching my head when i bother to use consecrate, being like, "that was supposed to do something?"
 
SlicerSV said:
also, remember that the ONLY pally ae nuke is a bane nuke. Consecrate. Also not really worth having up even in HHK/Cata unless you're like the second pally, as main pally i'd rather have a couple single target aggro spells in addition to my ae aggro spells. but even if it were tweaked, it's just not worth having because pallies tank not nuke, and recast on it is too huge to use as an aggro draw (for comparison, ae stun has a 32 sec recast, and ae blind is 25 sec, consecrate, however, is 2 min.)

only tweaking i could see for consecration would be to make it an omg we're in trouble ae spell for undead only, i'd put it up for that use.

give it the -50 resist mod that the other L65 banes were offered and a small aggro draw. (it's recast isn't QUITE long enough to merit a big draw)

yes i realize it already has a -25 modifier, but i am not finding the spell landing all that often with my weak pally cha. and don't tell me to get more cha, it's hard enough to balance my stats with everything i need some of. Wave of Light has a -75 modifier.

it'd have the chance to eliminate some of the weaker mobs attacking your party, and it'd draw the remaining mobs on you. as it is, i often find myself scratching my head when i bother to use consecrate, being like, "that was supposed to do something?"
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Consecrate lands fine for me and tbh - it's the best spell to do HK floors 1-3. I mean c'mon it nukes half of the HP of nearly all mobs there away with one shot, that's pretty fucking amazing considering a paladin is a TANK. That spell should stay as is (maybe slight neg resist but only VERY slight) or it'd be insanely powerful.
 
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