Aura of Destruction

[Bridger]

I think any post/thread made by bridger should just be ignored

Obviously people are free to ignore anything I (or anyone else write)

he never acknowledges when people make counterpoints

Let me know any counterpoints I have missed and I will gladly address them

he just posts the same thing over and over

Unfortunately addressing issues will involve a degree of repetition.

about his selfish reasons for wanting something

The motivation for most (all?) postings in suggestions and requests is to change something that is happening to one's own toon(s) and is therefore "selfish". I believe my record of raising issues that have been accepted (with the obvious exception of the MoP) is pretty good.

 

[Bridger]

The ideal solution (if indeed any solution is possible) would appear to be option (c)
- restore the origonal illusion when AoD wears off. I would be surprised if this was not possible as there has to be an end of spell routine - but what do I know.

This is however just a "nice to have" rather than something I feel very strongly about.

After all with mage crits being "f****d" it is not going to be cast on a mage if there is any alternative target.

 

[Boehm]

The end of spell routine is its buff timer. Since this is a client side illusion issue, when you illusion is changed your client thinks its gone. What the client thinks mostly obtains.

So fixing this would probably mean a timed server loop relating to your character and buff executing on wear basically reapplying your aa. This would be kind of ugly, if it even worked as the aa application isn't initiated by your client.

Have you tried Gerick's suggestion?

 

[stral]

After all with mage crits being "f****d" it is not going to be cast on a mage if there is any alternative target.

Honestly fixing mage crits wouldn't suddenly make mages a primary AoD target. Seeing as a huge chunk of mage dps derives from their pet, you would probably still be better off AoD'ing someone else when it comes to pure casting dps. The main issue I have with them not working is if you ever end up in a 6 man or something and its time to burn, bringing a mage cuts down on enc dps potential. I just get mad every time I consciously stack a group.

The main argument for fixing them would be the feeling of actually progressing as you progress your character, which you are the only mage I've seen post support of. My guess is there is a lot of "meh" at the concept, but idrk.

 

[Moraelintz]

As a mage I 100% agree with Stral on both points.

1) AoD for mage is relatively pointless as our dps is split between us and a pet. Our best casting dps that I can find is either dual rains or rain and DD. This is not that great caster dps considering our biggest 2 rains are < 1k base dmg and the raind and our DD's are slow cast ~5 or 6s. It is by far the best use of the mana to AoD either a necro or a Wizard. AoD for a mage would be like gog for a bard. Sure it helps and will increase the dps but there are much better targets for the spell.

2) Rain crit math.
a. In my opinion the problem arises in the philosophy of the spells. Since it is one spell (one cast one mana cost) then I can see why people can see why the crit chance should be lower. However since all of them can be resisted equally I would consider each wave as a different spell, essencially fast casting 1kish nukes that can hit 2 targets. The only question I have do DoT's have thier crit % knocked down since under the same principles 1 cast 1 mana cost longer recoursing affect. Do they have the crit % divided up by the number of ticks they have
b. The real point here and that stral makes is that its just meh. Sure I would like to do more dps, sure I would like to see more rain crits, but at the end of the day if I truly wanted the big numbers and amazing burst casting dps I would have rolled a wizard.

Morale of the day * know your role*

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

2) Rain crit math.
a. In my opinion the problem arises in the philosophy of the spells. Since it is one spell (one cast one mana cost) then I can see why people can see why the crit chance should be lower. However since all of them can be resisted equally I would consider each wave as a different spell, essencially fast casting 1kish nukes that can hit 2 targets. The only question I have do DoT's have thier crit % knocked down since under the same principles 1 cast 1 mana cost longer recoursing affect. Do they have the crit % divided up by the number of ticks they have
b. The real point here and that stral makes is that its just meh. Sure I would like to do more dps, sure I would like to see more rain crits, but at the end of the day if I truly wanted the big numbers and amazing burst casting dps I would have rolled a wizard.

The issue I have with this is that it makes the new crit tomes 1/3 as effective for mages as other casters, unless the same math is applied to DOTs (which, from unscientific observation, it seems not to be in my experience).

 

[Moraelintz]

The issue I have with this is that it makes the new crit tomes 1/3 as effective for mages as other casters, unless the same math is applied to DOTs (which, from unscientific observation, it seems not to be in my experience).

I agree, but at the same time I do not want to see the raw damage of the rains decreased to make up for the overall increase in mage dps which from what I can tell people believe will happen. The mage rains are already lower than 1k base! If the dev's would decide to bless the mages with the increased crit % I would love that, but if it comes at the cost to lower dps for all mages < 65 and tomed then I would say just focus on other tomes first. I am not to that stage yet only ~22% through my first codex of power, but I have planned where I will go from there. I plan on doing the pet tomes because they increase its survivability/dps thus further increasing my dps.

 

[Boehm]

Dot crit is not reduced. Dots hit one target.

I think you can make a case for changing mage rain crit, without bringing in a different mechanic and saying its the same.

 

[Moraelintz]

Dot crit is not reduced. Dots hit one target.

I think you can make a case for changing mage rain crit, without bringing in a different mechanic and saying its the same.

There are no other mechanics like rain that I know of, but there are a few that are similair.

1) Pbaoe (blue gem)-> 1 spell, 1 mana cost -> as many targets that you have aggro on ( I do not know how high this will go never tested but I know it works up to at least 8) That is 2 more than a rain.

2) Targeted AoE (green gem) -> 1 spell, 1 mana cost -> up to 4 targets iirc

3 DoT's -> 1 spell, 1 mana cost -> Lasts the duration of the DoT or until mob is dead and have long enough duration that multiple dots can be stacked on a mob by 1 dotter. It is show below that not only will they have enough time to cast the 2 dots and keep them up but they can also do other things while having them up such as nuke heal etc.

Necro dots-> Spell: Relic: Marlow's Cremation -> duration 36s , casting time 5.5s
Spell: Archaic: Claws of the Chill ->duration 24s, casting time 2.75s
Shaman dots -> Spell: Relic: Scourge of Life -> duration 24s, casting time 3.5s
Spell: Plaguewind -> duration 54s, casting time 7.75s
Druid Dots -> Spell: Relic: Doomswarm -> duration 54s, casting time 5.2s
Spell: Crawling Swarm -> duration 54s, casting time 5.3s

The illustration I am trying to make is that multiple DoT's can be kept up on multiple targets at full efficiency (not falling) and the caster still has time to do other things such as nuke or heal. With mage/wizard rains when using multiple rains you can only keep 1 up at a time as the first one ends or the last wave hits as the next one lands. In between rains there is minimal or no time to nuke, cast mod rods, pet heal, clickies, etc.

Again I am not saying that these are the same, I am saying that they are similair or close.
But again, if by getting crit rate increased on Rains comes at the cost of decreased raw damage I am 100% against it.

 

[GuiardoTuneweaver]

The illustration I am trying to make is that multiple DoT's can be kept up on multiple targets at full efficiency (not falling) and the caster still has time to do other things such as nuke or heal.

But multiple dots on different targets take multiple casts, unlike rains, so that's not really a fair comparison.

What I think was missing from the other discussion where it was stated rains are balanced around 2 targets, was factoring in the % of time that you can actually use them on 2 targets. Balancing around 2 targets may be fine for an XP grind, but for any difficult content and the vast majority of raid targets (as well as soloing) there will mostly only be 1 target to hit.

 

[Moraelintz]

But multiple dots on different targets take multiple casts, unlike rains, so that's not really a fair comparison.

What I think was missing from the other discussion where it was stated rains are balanced around 2 targets, was factoring in the % of time that you can actually use them on 2 targets. Balancing around 2 targets may be fine for an XP grind, but for any difficult content and the vast majority of raid targets (as well as soloing) there will mostly only be 1 target to hit.

Right now it is a 1/3% to crit per wave so it seams that the chance is normalized per wave not per targets affected. Why not normalize it per target and have it a 50% to crit, but then again if you are going to do that are pboa and other targeted AoE have the same crit % modifier?

 

[Moraelintz]

I want to clarify that I am not saying other things need to be changed or that they are overpowered or anything. I am trying to get clarification as why some things are one way and others are different.

I think that rains have enough detriment to them that they should not get penalized crit %. For instance if the mob dies early the caster is now getting rained. If you brake mez with rains most likely the mezzed and the caster will die.

 

[Bridger]

Right now it is a 1/3% to crit per wave

No - it is not even that, because when the wave crits it is only one of the 2 targets that takes double damage.

 

[Bridger]

There still appears to be a lot of confusion over this issue so let me try and clarify.

What SHOULD happen with crit is that a toon with x% crit should do (in the long term) x% more damage than an otherwise identical (but without crit) toon would do in an identical set of circumstances. Whether this is Wiz crits, necro dots, rogue melee or mage rains (on single or multiple targets) is NOT relevant.

 

[Boehm]

There are no other mechanics like rain that I know of, but there are a few that are similair.

You mention cast times without reference to casting speed increment. The base cast for claws and caress is 3.75, not 2.75. You also leave out dots that necros commonly use that have casts times greater then 6 seconds.

Mage ttMDPS = 6 seconds on one target and 2/3rds max on a second.

Necro ttMDPS = @ 1 minute on one target.

As a necro, you can keep 2 dots running on 2 targets but its not our damage potential. Mages are at their full damage potential with one cast and pet attack. That rain is also one cast not 4 casts, each with its own mana cost.

Let me turn your observation on its head. dot caster potential is based on the application of as many dots as can run be at the same time. If one resists, it results in not only the complete loss of mana, but a resulting inefficiency is introduced into a rotation in that it now takes longer to reach maximum potential.

Each further resist re-introduces that decrease to damage potential during the period of re-application and beyond. Because other spells are now stacking in your cue waiting for re-application to reach maximum potential.

Rains are an irresistable spell application with three dice sub-routines to determine actual damage on that particular roll, with an individual roll for each effect npc per subroutine. You can have an initial resist and still reach your maximum potential on the next subroutine roll.

This is a significantly different mechanic.

 

[Udeni]

Rains are an irresistable spell application with three dice sub-routines to determine actual damage on that particular roll, with an individual roll for each effect npc per subroutine. You can have an initial resist and still reach your maximum potential on the next subroutine roll.

They aren't irresistable, each wave can get resisted separately. Or that's what i've noticed with CW bow. If the first gets resisted, the spell may not land (i can't remember) but i'm pretty sure it goes on the other 2 waves, which can each get resisted. All this i've noticed from a bow proc, so feel free to ignore me