Archaic: Sun Storm

Y

yale

Dalayan Beginner
Sorry, I know there are posts containing info about this spell, but since they're very old I thought I'd make a newer concise one.

I got the Archaic last night & I tested today. Comparing it to relic I come out with:

Archaic: Sun Storm
Fire
2469 dmg [DI7, 4% Fire focus]
5.1 (5.8) sec cast [CSI 6]
375 Mana

Relic: Bladewind
Magic
2068 dmg [DI7, no magic focus]
4.0 (4.5) sec cast [CSI 6]
350 Mana

Thus with no foci the Archaic is only ~300dmg more than the Relic, with 1sec+ more time to cast & 25 more mana (which is fairly insignificant I know).

Considering how much harder the Archaic is to get, it really does need a bump upwards in damage and/or downwards in cast time.

If I can remember to I will parse myself on the same named, using Sun Storm/Storm of the Elements & then Bladewind/Storm of the Elements over the next week.
I am guessing that the dps with Archaic will be less, or not significantly higher than the relic, making it more of a situational spell (for mobs with high MR) rather than one to keep perma-memmed.


Thanks for reading, any feedback is appreciated :)
 
You've already provided enough info to be able to accurately compare the DPS of the 2 spells. All we have to factor in is the fizzle time (how long gems are greyed out after casting) which is 2.5 secs for both.

Archaic: Sun storm
2469 dmg in 5.1 + 2.5 sec = 324.9 DPS when chain casting

Relic: Bladewind
2068 dmg in 4.0 + 2.5 sec = 318.2 DPS when chain casting

If we remove the fire focus from Sun Storm it drops to 311.9 DPS.

If you had a 4% magic dmg focus then Bladewind would be about 330.9.

So, yes, your long sought after Archaic nuke is basically just a situational spell. Welcome to the frustration that is being a high level mage.
 
Archaic also has a lower resist mod when compared to bladewind, -20 on the archaic, -25 on the relic. Poor mages.
 
Ok, thanks for that Garluk. Sorry more numbers inc:

I think it will be useful to compare the step up from Wizard Relic to Archaic, to the slight step down of Mage Relic to Archaic.
Note that I'm not comparing Wizards and Mages at all, just the gaps between their respective Relic & Archaic Nukes.

Archaic: Moon Comet
Cold
3587 dmg [DI6, no foci]
4.5 (5.8) sec cast [CSI 6]
525 Mana


Relic: Tarhyl's Embrace
Fire
2986 dmg [DI6, no foci]
4.7 (6.0) sec cast [CSI 6]
510 Mana

Thus, the dps of each of these is (they both have 2.5s fizzle time):
Archaic: 3587/(4.5 + 2.5) = 512.4
Relic: 2986/(4.7 + 2.5) = 414.7

So for Wizards, the Archaic is an increase of 23.6% dps on the Relic (414.7 x 1.236 = ~512)

However for mages (Excluding my fire focus) you get:
Archaic: 2370/(5.1 + 2.5) = 311.8
Relic: 2068/(4.0 + 2.5) = 318.2

So for Mages, the Archaic is a decrease of 2.1% dps on the Relic (318.2 x 0.979 = ~312)

Hence what I am suggesting, is to balance the gap between Relic & Archaic for Mages.

If you were to also make an increase of 23.6% dps for mages you could lower the cast time on Archaic to ~3.53s.

If we call that 3.6 seconds (with CSI6, I can't think what the cast time would be without that) then Mage Archaic dps would be:

2370/(3.6 + 2.5) = 388.5

This would mean the Archaic would be an 22.1% increase on the Relic, which seems much more inline with what the Wizard Archaic is.


I'm pretty sure my maths is correct throughout, but feel free to challenge.

My suggestion is to change the cast time on Archaic: Sun Storm to 3.6s (with CSI 6) since I figure that's the easiest way to balance them.
Or up the damage a bit if that can be calculated to a sensible degree.

Any thoughts? :)
 
I really think that this spell needs a tweak of some kind. Maybe lower the mana cost, or up the damage, but as far as I'm concerned, Mages get robbed on the archaic. Wizards use Moon Comet essentially all the time, with the exception to a few fights where the mob is exceptionally cold resistant. Enchanters use their Archaic mez almost exclusively, except when using relic in certain situations.

I would say up the damage a bit on it to make it more desireable than bladewind, but not so much that it begins to outdamage Relic: Tarhyl's Embrace.
 
I would agree that the Archaic mage nuke should be roughly a 20% dps increase over the relic - it's currently worse than bladewind
 
It's cast time could stand to be decreased, but if Awardis is doing 500dps with it then I hardly think it's as underpowered claimed.

With relic bladewind, DI 6 and 4% magic focus I am averaging about 350dps (including my pet - 90dps - and monster pet - 30dps). Most mages claim they parse less than that, therefore, I hardly see how Bladewind is better than Archaic...
 
JayelleNephilim said:
I hardly see how Bladewind is better than Archaic...
Click to expand...

Just look at the numbers posted. With no dmg-type specific focus, just normal dmg increment, when chain casting both spells Relic: Bladewind is MORE dps than Archaic: Sun Storm. There is no way to dispute this.
 
JayelleNephilim said:
It's cast time could stand to be decreased
Click to expand...

As for Awardis' dps and how he got his numbers, he'd have to answer that. I just know what he's told me. :shrug: (or... well... someone will have to post for him since he is anti-forum-posting :p)
 
JayelleNephilim said:
It's cast time could stand to be decreased, but if Awardis is doing 500dps with it then I hardly think it's as underpowered claimed.

With relic bladewind, DI 6 and 4% magic focus I am averaging about 350dps (including my pet - 90dps - and monster pet - 30dps). Most mages claim they parse less than that, therefore, I hardly see how Bladewind is better than Archaic...
Click to expand...

It's absolutely impossible for a mage to be doing 500dps with DD spells of any kind. He might have been doing 500 dps ONCE with spampets/pet and rains going off in the background. I played an overpowered mage on live, and trust me, I never touched 500dps. I realize it's just what he told you, but please stop with the "well awardis did x amount of damage blah blah blah" because it's flat-out not true.

Mages are not known for their DD skills, they leave that to the wizards. While playing Aisling (who is #2 on the server), I've done close to 350 with spampets/pet and rains. Doing Bladewind lowers it considerably.

Considering the average number of fire-resistant mobs on the server (read: a lot), casting Archaic: Sun Storm would be an even bigger hit to Mage DD dps. I almost never use bladewind because it's less DPS, and if I get aggro I have no way of getting rid of it via concussion or otherwise.

I will agree that it's a situational spell, but Sun Storm should be upped considerably because it's such an endgame spell.
 
I looked a bit at CSI:

Zhak said:
I would agree that the Archaic mage nuke should be roughly a 20% dps increase over the relic
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Lowering the ordinary cast time on Archaic: Sun Storm 5.8s, to about 4.2s should achieve this suggested ~20% increase

This should make it ~3.7s (with CSI 6), which gives 382.3 dps when chain-casting, which is very close to a 20% increase over the relic (20% would be 381.8)

Since it appears to be agreed that this spell is underpowered it'd be great to see a GM word here to say whether a shortening in cast time is feasible, or whether increasing the damage would be a better solution. :)
 
I fully support Yale's suggestion.
Upping the damage or lowering casting time wouldn't make mages overpowered since they'd grab aggro quite quickly with just chain nuking (without the use of rains), speaking from experience with chain casting bladewind, with spell casting subtlety 3 and -10% aggro modifiers.
 
I fully support Yale's suggestion.

Mages have some great nuking utility and they do have a certain place but currently they stand far behind wizards (reasonable) and necros (not reasonable). Anything that ups mage DPS and brings them closer to other caster DPS is a good thing as long as it doesn't result in "Uber_nuke_01".
 
Ok well here's the thing with bladewind. Right now it's better, no question about it.

The 500 Awardis was doing (there's a parse somewhere here) was including things iirc like druid archaic, cunning, the extra crit mod that runes of searing provides, and an 8% fire focus (from the earring), and an 8% magic focus (applicable towards rains.

Now is it possible for a mage to do upwards of 500 dps, purely casting? Sure if there's 2 mobs right next to each other. C-c-c-chainrain. Of course in most of these situations, you will either run oom, or one will be dead, and your dps sinks like a rock once that happens. So it's incredibly situational. You can also expect as a mage nowadays to do less dps than previously (when that old parse was up) by about 2%/nuke/rainpulse at the very top end because of the hit foci took. As for pure bladewind numbers, well I don't have em. I generally always mix it up. Back a month or so ago terate picked up a mess of raidfights where I was generally between 310-350. Including things like ms3,4, hoe, fb, rbow always on pet, etc.

Now on to monster summoning. Increased our dps, very fun spell, very handy. GG, love it.

As for the aggro issue. Yes bladewind chained will in fact pull aggro. No two ways about it. With no cunning (because of the aggro -, which takes it down to most fights will not last long enough for you to pull aggro as long as you don't mash the button) you will. Generally this will tend to happen anywhere from 30-50%, way's to avoid this include popping off a rain, then a bladewind, but it's still dicey around the last 20% or so. Our dps does suffer because of that, regardless of tier, we have 0 ways to reduce aggro as an ability. None. I see that as a large part of the problem, regardless of whether sunstorm gets bumped up. I'd say tinkaa's suggestion of a pet share aggro component wouldn't be too bad of an idea, or something, freaking anything to reduce aggro. Sure some people will say, well stop nuking every once in a while. Well, dpswise, you may as well bring along a class that doesn't have to do that, whose dps does not suffer as a result. Just makes more sense tbh.

But yes, sunstorm needs a boost for sure. Doesn't make much sense for mage's archaics main selling point is a different resist type, which is also frequently found to be high to immune on most mobs. As it stands, I wouldn't use it if I had it 90% of the time. As for how? Well, bigger numbers are nice, and give us a happy warm glow inside, and shouldn't as far as I'm understanding aggro increase it much more if at all, shortening the cast time means it gets cast more=> more aggro. Perhaps a combination of both? Not as fast as bladewind, but for alot more damage? In the realm of caster dps it always seemed pretty simple and straightforward to me. Wizards, well they're like a cannon, lot of damage, for alot of mana. Necro's? A biological weapon, they do a ton of damage, but it takes a bit for it to all hit. Mages, combination of both, the pet takes a while, the nukes don't, and are a bit faster than others.
 
From looking at my spells_us backups, it turns out not long ago the Relic and Archaic had the same, higher cast time. I'm betting it's likely that Sunstorm was forgotten when Bladewind got improved.

As for Mage aggro reduction, I don't think that's terribly necessary. There already exist numerous ways to not get your ass kicked by a mob but still do decent dps; you'll have to avail yourself of more of them before you'll convince me that extra class features are needed.
 
Thinkmeats said:
From looking at my spells_us backups, it turns out not long ago the Relic and Archaic had the same, higher cast time. I'm betting it's likely that Sunstorm was forgotten when Bladewind got improved.

As for Mage aggro reduction, I don't think that's terribly necessary. There already exist numerous ways to not get your ass kicked by a mob but still do decent dps; you'll have to avail yourself of more of them before you'll convince me that extra class features are needed.
Click to expand...

As a mage these amount to, rain, or nuke less, either that or clicky concussions. Rain is pretty much your main aggro control in fact, though on single targets (and considering the lower crit rate of rains in general, also one of the things that I'd imagine takes mage dps from below wizards, to faaar below wizards, now and in the past. Mad good when 2 targets are around, and you don't have to split them, or can't. But those situations=> few and far between) it tends to be a bit of a mana sponge for what it's worth. Those about sum it up. Figured sunstorm got forgotten, as the whole shebang made not much in the way of sense with a bladewind change and sunstorm not being so changed.
 
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