Archaic: Avatar of Mercy

BenGordon

BenGordon

BLIXT GORDON
Tonight I obtained this spell and it seems a bit lacking I was hoping it could get looked at. Basically it is a small upgrade to Vessel of Althuna. I think that these spells are way too similar and that considering the difficulty to obtain your archaic as a cleric could definitely use an upgrade or even be changed to something new altogether.

Vessel of Althuna increases healing by 10% and agression multiplier by 80%.
Avatar of Mercy increases healing by 15%, agression multiplier by 75% and maximum mana by 150.

Here are the daytime healing comparisons with Heal Inc 7:

Code: 
 [size=2]       Nothing VoA  AoM
Relic Remedy   2523 2730 2833 

Relic LoE     4888 5286 5485[/size]
Avatar of Mercy is a healing upgrade of 103 on Relic Remedy and 199 on Relic Light, this is not any significant improvement (without gnome focus bonus even less impressive). The 5% difference on the agression multiplier is not anything noticable. After this the entire spell seems as if it is only a 150 mana upgrade. I think there could be arguments for this spell that it is plenty 'powerful' as a 150 mana upgrade alone and it probably is but I think that it is entirely boring and could be improved. Not to mention Vessel of Althuna is already easily the most rarest and high priced sought after droppable spell in the game (mainly because it is the only spell of its kind for clerics).

Here are some suggestions I have thought about...

1) An elixir of bliss upgrade maybe a heal over time that has a small mana regen or cure counter per tick. This really seems like the obvious choice to me even if it is just given improvements on mana efficiency, healing and or casting time.

2) Improve current avatar of mercy with some hitpoints and or resists maybe a large death save component. If you are not willing to change this spell at least consider improving it. This would make it less lame although I still hope it gets changed to something different.

3) A condemnation upgrade - once again, anything other than the current cleric archaic this would be much less boring and infinitely more useful I don't see it unbalancing the class. Cleric dps upgrades stop after ancient hammer but our fellow wisdom casters get relic dds and relic dots.

4) Self Create Hammer upgrade - see description of #3 maybe give it wearable stats too like + mana/hp and some resists or a unique focus so clerics would have incentive to use it almost always. Not sure about this idea because you would have to make it better than the depths hammer to make it not obsolete and that is some serious stats.

5) A new spell altogether one that my simple mind can not think of maybe somebody else can.



I realize there are 5 or less copies of this spell on SOD and actually atm there are only 2 active clerics who have obtained it (including me). This is probably the reason no one has complained about it yet so please let me be the first to do so.
:toot:
 
Its a cleric spell so maybe just an upgraded heal??

Wich is logical since at the point you get this spell the tank your healing also has alot more hp. So just a small upgrade to LoE seems more in line with other archiacs (Necros primairy thing is a dot they get a better one, Wizards primairy thing is nukes they get a better nuke)
 
I always found the main issue was the it's an upgrade to another level 65 spell, making the actual difference underwhelming. A similar issue occurs (or occurred) with Lcea's Lament and the 65 song it surpasses. It makes the upgraded version only look slightly better. In another situation, Relic: High Priest's Bulwark suffered from this for a long while in comparison the level 59 Blessed Armor of the Risen, as it only provided a slight mana per tick and hp boost over a much, much lower spell. That was remedied, slightly, and I think the same could be done for this spell.

A hammer would be neat, but the limitations as Behn said are spot on. The heals, as discussed back when I used to be on staff, are out -- no archaic was going to be a heal, and I agree with that. The condemnation upgrade would be welcome, but as one of five relics, rather than the supreme archaic, imo.

I think Behn's best idea was to improve the spell itself. It's a decent spell, but it needs more than an extra bit of mana (not even enough for one heal) and extra aggro reduction (which itself rarely proves an issue, but is welcome regardless). The duration is nice, as with full AAs and duration 7, it lasts roughly 8 dickyears.

I think a death save component would be neat, and not in any way amazing or overpowering. I think, and thought this would be the best idea that was originally tossed around, that a melee buff would be awesome. On top of what the current Avatar of Mercy provides, extra dexterity and strength (stackable with Yaulp, if possible; if not, surpass Yaulp's bonuses), as well as a proc (if it's even possible. I've forgotten if there is even a slot left open after Divine Rage is taken into consideration) would make the current Avatar of Mercy into an Avatar of Retribution.
 
Making a Cleric do more dps with an Archiac makes no sense at all imo. You can only get archiac spells when your in top raid content. And I believe archiacs should make you more usefull on a raid because of this. Clerics dont do dps on raids so i dont see the point. If the archiac needs to become better or diffrent and it cant be a heal it should stay something like it is now.

-Maybe add something cool like giving you a small heal for each heal you do to someone else maybe 1% of your heal or less then that. (dont know how outbalanced this would be.)
-Increase crit chance on heals?
-adding hp or more mana?
-mana conservation (increase your specialization)
 
-5% aggro is indeed "noticable" (else why is motg wrist so popular?), but the 5% heal boost is the breadwinner. Bluntly, it's good independant of whether or not you notice that it's being good. That little bit happens on every heal, every HoT, every group heal, etc etc etc. There's no way it could boost much more without becoming a de facto heal upgrade. The extra mana capacity is just a bonus--the spell is already quite nice, as evidenced by your suggested upgrades.

Extra hp, death save, etc have nothing to do with the way the spell currently works. While you say the spell isn't doing enough, all of your arguments are centered around that you don't like what the spell is doing. Without solid arguments that the spell is too weak (which would cause upgrades in how it does what it already does), I'm not inclined to support a change.
 
The cleric archaic doesn't differentiate a cleric with or without the archaic very much. A druid, shaman, wizard, and necromancer with archaics are at a different level than those without them. The enchanter archaic is useful for a few raid encounters and awesome in groups. The mage archaic seems to be underpowered still and I believe thats being looked at.

I very frequently end up botting two clerics, one with archaic, one without and I don't really notice any difference between them. Compare for example a shaman who has archaic versus one who cannot. The archaiced shaman can slow 3 mobs in about 15-30 seconds without debuffing them if the tanks have aggro. The non archaiced shaman must debuff and then slow, it could take the one without archaic a full minute or more to slow three.

I wasn't really dying to get my archaic, I just ended up with the frags and now I heal for an additional 200 points of damage. Compare that to the wizards and shamans and druids who flip out every time they get one frag closer to completing their archaics. Having those archaics has a much bigger impact on the entire raid than the cleric self buff archaic.

EDIT: I think this post needs a little more hard data in terms of archaic comparison. I will provide that later tonight.
 
Very very rarely as a cleric do I have any trouble with healing agro that is why I say the -5% agro is not noticable. The only time I ever pull heal agro is on some sort of multipull where no one else has generated any agro, I don't think the 5% matters at this point because usually the only reason im pulling agro is because im the only one who has generated any. The rest of the time I couldn't pull agro if I tried...i'm not saying I thoroughly understand the mechanincs of heal generated agro and the reduction multipliers but I am saying that I can live without this and definitely can not pinpoint any situation where the 5% is currently making a difference. Last I checked the MOTG wrist is not all to popular and from what I recall when I did MOTG the first people to loot these bracelets were wizards not clerics.

My arguments are not that solid I agree, I think that I make my point though this spell is a small upgrade to vessel of althuna which is already a fairly rare and somewhat new 65 spell. While almost every other class who can get an archaic can instantly see huge benefits. With some classes like Wizard, Shaman, Enchanter seeing better than huge benefits. I tried to think outside the box on my suggestions because I think if devs wanted clerics to get a massive heal upgrade they would have given us one. Like I said the +150 mana upgrade alone is pretty huge but it just seems like a lame, boring, unfun and easy way to give clerics an archaic.

Xeldan said:
An extra 200 on a heal isn't significant just from buffing yourself?
Click to expand...

The small healing upgrades are almost not noticible because usually when me and 5 other healers are spamming heals on raids I am obviously not healing to my max efficiency very often at all, without doing any parses or looking at any logs I would say less than 15% of the time on raids or even in groups do I land full heals partially because a light crit is already a complete heal, and so is a remedy crit for that matter on anyone but sald. It is definitely more helpful to my remedy spell than my LoE spell though.

A archaic LoE upgrade was an obvious choice for anyone who created the spell but I don't think this is the answer and they didnt either. Maybe archaic remedy...but this again would be overpowered. I think eldorath makes a solid point that if you could box 2 of the same class one with and one without archaic you would see tremendous differences on any of them but 2 clerics. We already have VoA - avatar of mercy just seems like a cheap upgrade.
 
Well the spell it self is very nice imo cause of 5% more healing and 150 more mana but then again if you mesure the spell vs other archaic then it looks kinda weak.
 
Here is my big comparison which took me forever to get around to. Complete with commentary on each archaic. I haven't used every single one of these before (in particular necro/druid) so if you have any more insight on a particular archaic post it up.

Note: For the replacements I am assuming that the target has equal resists across the board. Obviously there are situations in which a particular spell would be better than the archaic due to lopsided resists.

Note2: I threw in the damage/mana for the nukes just as a comparison. Actual damage/mana differences will be more noticeable due to focus effect, cunning of the beast, damage increment, etc.


Cleric

Archaic: Avatar of Mercy
Long Duration Self Buff
Increase Healing by 15%
Increase Aggression Multiplier by 75%
Increase Maximum Mana by 150

Replaces: Vessel of Althuna
Level 65 cleric spell, going rate between 7-15k depending on supply/demand
Long Duration Self Buff
Increase Healing by 10%
Increase Aggression Multiplier by 80%

Difference: 5% more healing, 5% less aggro, and 150 mana.

Overall Usefulness: A nice little self buff. The fact that it eclipses an expensive level 65 spell is a little rough, but its not too big of a deal I guess, most clerics who get Archaic have already had Vessel for a long time and got good use out of it.

The -aggression is nice and all, but not really a big factor. Clerics basically never pull aggro, especially with foelock in. The 5% healing increase is definitely a nice little boost too. 200 more hp to my 5150pt heal. About 100 more hp 2650pt quick heal. Its good, its useful. Its not raidchanging. My day to day experience is pretty much the same. Having the Archaic doesn't make my healing reasonably easier, or even noticably different from a cleric without archaic. As explained above, the 200 extra hp is not worth too much in most raid situations. The 150 mana is probably worth more, I am guessing it gives me at least 1 more LoE.



Shaman

Archaic: Spirit Sleep
Single target magic based slow with a -100 adjust
Lasts 5.5 minutes and costs 265 mana
Cast Time: 1.0 second, no recast
Decrease Attack Speed by 55%
Increase Disease Counter by 20

Replaces: Turgur's Insects
Level 51 shaman spell, sold on a vendor
Single target magic based slow with no adjust
Lasts 5 minutes and costs 250 mana
Cast Time: 3 seconds, 6 second recast
Decrease Attack Speed by 50%
Increase Disease Counter by 16

Difference: Casting speed is decreased by 66%, uses 15 more mana, has a massive -100 resist adjust and goes from 6 second recast to no recast.

Overall Usefulness: Extremely useful. Makes botting a shaman about 5 times easier. Gone are the days of waiting for the shaman to malo, mage to malosini, enc to tash, and then wait a full minute while your shaman gets 4 resists and your tank gets destroyed. Basically removed everything that sucked from turgurs to create the uber slow. This is possibly the best archaic.



Druid

Archaic: Tarhyl's Raging Curse
Single target fire based debuff with a -100 adjust
Lasts 10 minutes and costs 275 mana
Cast Time: 3.5 seconds, no recast
Decrease Armor Class by 300
Decrease Fire Resist by 100
Decrease Attack by 100
Increases the damage of fire nukes by a decent percentage, we don't have one yet.
It also might affect all nukes? The only person with this is Caelin.

Replaces: Enclosure of Tarhyl
Level 62 druid spell, not sure on the going rate but probably in the 150-500p range
Single target fire based debuff with no adjust
Lasts 10 minutes and costs 325 mana
Cast Time: 4.5 seconds, 6 second recast
Decrease Armor Class by 107
Decrease Fire Resist by to 88
Decrease Attack by 107
Decrease Current Hitpoints by 200

Difference: 193 more AC debuff, 12 more FR debuff, 7 less attack debuff, 50 less mana, 1 second faster cast, no recast time. And the icing on the cake is the damage increment focus (probably only affecting fire nukes), which might be equivalent to about DI3 or DI4 from what I've heard. I'd love some confirmation from forsaken wizards/mages/druids.

Overall Usefulness: Well I can't comment too much on this yet. We definitely do get Enclosure of Tarhyl in on every raid encounter, and this is a decent buff to that. Plus it adds in that damage increment, which, even if it only affects fire, is awesome for mages and wizards on many encounters. Adds a really nice additional layer of desirability over Enclosure of Tarhyl.



Necromancer

Archaic: Claws of the Chill
Cold based single target dot with a -200 adjust
Lasts 4 ticks and costs 480 mana
Cast Time: 3.75 seconds, no recast
Decrease Attack by 50
Decrease Hitpoints by 645 per tick
4 Ticks X 645 = 2580 for 480 mana = 5.375 damage/mana , -200 cold adjust

Compared to:
Relic: Marlows Cremation: 6 Ticks X 420 = 2520 for 465 mana, 5.42 damage/mana, -125 fire adjust
Scitterpox: 9 Ticks X 290 = 2610 for 525 mana = 4.97 damage/mana, disease based, no adjust
Funeral Pyre of Malath (lvl 60 bought spell): 6 Ticks X 330 = 1980 for 450 mana = 4.4 damage/mana, -100 fire adjust
Caress of Sivyana (lvl 62 dropped spell): 215 + 4 Ticks X 498 = 2207 for 505 mana, 4.37 damage/mana, poison based, no adjust
Relic: Spirit of Kaezeul: 5 Ticks X 360 = 1800 for 520 mana, 3.46 damage/mana (lifetap), -200 magic adjust

Difference: Its a little strange that it looks like Marlow's Cremation is more damage/mana, but I guess you also have to consider that the Archaic has better resist adjusts, the attack debuff, and it is faster. Not to mention the Archaic would actually probably end up replacing Funeral Pyre or Caress of Sivyana in the spell lineup since necros stack up a ton of dots. You can see the differences between them above, not typing them all out.

Overall Usefulness: Replaces one of the crappier necro dots to increase their DPS. We don't have one yet so I can't comment on how massive it is for necros. The attack debuff coupled with a decent increase in DPS is pretty sweet and should cause a reasonable increase in the DPS of a necro who gets this. I know Paxx is dying to get his.



Enchanter

Archaic: Vapor Trance
Magic based single target mez with a -35 adjust
Lasts 3 minutes and costs 175 mana
Cast Time: 1.5 seconds, no recast
Mesmerize (Level 65 max)

Replaces: Complacency
Level 62 enchanter spell, going rate probably between 200-500p
Magic based single target mez with a -25 adjust
Lasts 2 minutes and costs 160 mana
Cast Time: 3 seconds, no recast
Mesmerize (Level 65 max)

Difference: Has 10 more resist adjust, uses 15 more mana, lasts 50% longer (another minute). Also cuts the cast time in half.

Overall Usefulness: This one is probably one of the weaker archaics. Its a decent improvement over the older mez, but it doesn't really stomp it. The casting speed is the best improvement by far and I am sure enchanters are very happy to get this. There are probably only a few select encounters where this spell is actually useful on a raid however. But I know its sweet for groups.



Wizard

Archaic: Moon Comet
Cold based single target nuke with a -20 adjust
Costs 525 mana
Cast Time: 5.75 seconds, no recast
Decrease Hitpoints by 2575, 4.90 damage/mana

Replaces: Relic: Tarhyl's Embrace
65 Wizard Relic Spell (clearly not really "replaced")
Fire based single target nuke with a -10 adjust
Costs 510 mana
Cast Time: 6 seconds, no recast
Decrease Hitpoints by 2250, 4.41 damage/mana

Difference: You can see the damage/mana is a notch up on the Archaic. Offers a high damage cold nuke instead of fire.

Overall Usefulness: The biggest, baddest nuke in the game. Gives wizards the ability to actually do DPS on things that are resistant to fire, and get even more massive crits on stuff that is equally resistant to fire and cold. Definitely a very desirable archaic that every wizard longs for.



Magician

Archaic: Sun Storm
Fire based single target nuke with a -20 adjust
Costs 375 mana
Cast Time: 5.75 seconds, 2.5 second recast
Decrease Hitpoints by 1745, 4.65 damage/mana

Replaces: Relic: Bladewind
65 Magician Relic Spell (once again not really replaced)
Magic based single target nuke with a -25 adjust
Costs 350 mana
Cast Time: 4.5 seconds, no recast
Decrease Hitpoints by 1520, 4.34 damage/mana

Difference: Has better damage/mana. Gives mages a nice big fire nuke over the Relic magic nuke.

Overall Usefulness: Another weak archaic, but this has been brought up a whole bunch. It is definitely more damage per mana, but due to the casting time Relic: Bladewind is actually more DPS. Its only desirable for encounters where the mob is MR but not FR. Needs some tweaking, but thats for another thread.





Comments:

So we have to look at how powerful an Archaic should be. I think it should be good enough that it distinguishes a character that doesn't have it from a character that does have it by a decent amount (ok that's really subjective, but these archaics are all totally different depending on class). Currently I think that at least the mage and cleric, and possibly enchanter Archaics do not really do this. (Well the enchanter on is up for debate, its not that useful for most raids, but very useful for grouping, that's another thread though). I definitely want a shaman, wizard, necro, and druid with their archaics over those without. But for clerics, my mana, FT, hp, and resists are overwhelmingly more important than my archaic.

There have been some decent suggestions in this thread. My number 1 limiting factor on raids is running out of mana from casting LoE. I know effects can be added that only effect specific spells. If not a blanket mana conservation effect, perhaps a 15% mana conservation for LoE? Or you could add other stuff such as FT that isn't affected by the cap, more hp, more mana, death safe chance, and/or resists. Finally, this one is a little out of the box but maybe a targetable death save replacement for divine benevolence with a 75% chance of working, that you can only cast every 15 minutes and has a 15 minute duration, or something along those lines.


EDIT: Also on comparing nukes versus heals, you have to keep in mind that a nuke that does 10% more damage/mana is worth SO much more than a heal that does 10% more healing. The goal of heals is to prevent the tank from dying, and with multiple healers all healing at the same time, the 10% more healing doesn't have a very big impact. While doing 10% more DPS has a much larger impact. This is why something like a mana conservation so I can heal for longer or high chance death save for when something goes wrong would be a lot more valuable.
 
IMO the druid archaic is the single best archaic in the game. Seeing as how attack and armor class values are relatively small (1000's - 2000's) the numbers that the archaic reduces are pretty stellar. And not to mention the 10% increase to damage being dealt.

I do agree that the Cleric and Enchanter Archaic spells are weak, but I can see why they were made with the limits they have. An Enchanter with the Archaic isn't a whole lot better of than one with the unresistable relic, except that they can mez for longer periods of time (on the whole what, one fight where mezing is needed in the high end), just like a Cleric with the Archaic isn't a whole lot better off than a Cleric with Vessal. What about something like this for both of them:


Archaic: Vapor Trance
175 mana cost
1.5 second cast time
3 minute duration
-35 magic resist adjust
Mesmerizes targets up to level 66 and lowers magic resist by 35.

Archaic: Avatar of Mercy
Increase Healing by 15%
Increase Aggression Multiplier by 75%
Increase Maximum Mana by 150
Lower spell damage taken by 5%
Increase all resists by 15


Also, the downside of the shaman and enchanter archaics are the NPCs mitigation to their effects. The Enchanter archaic lasts something like a just over a minute, and the Shaman archaic is more like a 30% slow. Other classes don't have to worry about these things, only resists and timing heals.
 
It's fairly obvious that the cleric archaic is lacking in comparison to the other 2 priest archaics. Wizard archaic is 10 times better and 10 times easier to obtain than cleric archaic. I think that difficulty to obtain spell should be something considered here when we ask for an improvement on avatar of mercy.

Eldoraths post is important to this argument because it really shows as a comparison to other archaics how much of an upgrade some classes get especially wiz and shaman I think it might even be evidence that if nothing is going to be done about cleric archaic some of these archaics are due for a slight tone down especially wiz and shaman. I dont see why clerics cant get some love here, avatar of mercy and vessel of althuna are too damn similar. Make them stack that is an easy fix and I would be happy if VoA and AoM stacked. There are other good ideas in this thread like this one

Eldorath said:
a targetable death save replacement for divine benevolence with a 75% chance of working, that you can only cast every 15 minutes and has a 15 minute duration, or something along those lines.
Click to expand...

some of the suggestions in this thread are not that bad please consider giving it an upgrade please !
 
Yeah, uhh.. stacking with vessel would be rediculous..
The idea of LoE specific mana conservation is awesome though.
 
BenGordon said:
I think it might even be evidence that if nothing is going to be done about cleric archaic some of these archaics are due for a slight tone down especially wiz and shaman.
Click to expand...

AoM is a beefy upgrade over VoA plain and simple. You don't take into account some people might not ever have VoA and would welcome AoM. Saying that by time people got AoM they surely would already have VoA is a moot point that I know would be made. Maybe clr should have a heal as an archaic. I figured that was what their archaic surely was awhile back. Makes all the sense in the world. But it isn't. Screaming nerf other classes archaics if you won't give me what I want isn't going to get you what you want any sooner. Imo this archaic is very much in line with the other archaics. It's just something you personally aren't pleased with regardless of it being a pretty big upgrade over VoA, and whether you notice or not it is making a difference and worthy of the title archaic imho.

However, with that said, I totally understand the spell is sort of a let down. I support tweaking it up a bit, regardless that I feel it's fine as is, because I know I would probably want it to be better considering the ridiculous amount of time, work, and luck it takes to get it. I suggest healing mod to be 20% and a 200 mana buff. I don't think that's over doing it and seriously you can't complain with that. If you do you're just expecting way too much reward for a spell that could not exist at all to begin with.
 
I could see a mana cons-type effect for heals on the arch, even to the extent of replacing the heal increase. It's the same intention as the original spell, but refrankebrated in such a way as to be actually useful.

Enchanter arch mez would be decent if raid encounters / trash were actually designed with crowd control in mind, but alas, they are not. The enchanter archaic should not be a mez unless raids do a 180 and actually make crowd control important, and that can't happen without a lot of revamps on older zones. Not only that, but the archaic mez breaks group encounters in *half*--it's just so retardedly good against mobs with no mez mitigation. What's more, every other int caster gets a dps increase off their arch--enchanters don't.

The enchanter archaic should be a giantkin upgrade, not a mez. There's not really much else to say: no other spell line makes even remote sense for an upgrade, and an upgrade to boon/giantkin would be amazingly apropos, more in line with other archaics' intent and power level, more useful on raids, etc etc etc.
 
Thinkmeats said:
...even to the extent of replacing the heal increase.
Click to expand...

Having three slots of just self buffs would be mega shitty.

edit: four self buffs before divine rage if you're swinging your hammer
 
Thoias said:
Having three slots of just self buffs would be mega shitty.

edit: four self buffs before divine rage if you're swinging your hammer
Click to expand...

I in no way meant to imply that it would stack with the level 65 spell. It would not. Neither would the level 65 spell change--it would stay the same heal increase/ -aggro it is now. It's only the high end raidgame that makes raw heal increase not terribly attractive.
 
you're not always in a situation where you're wasting healing potential because of the other priests involved..
it wouldnt be much fun to have lost that heal inc when you're solo healing someone, someone goes oom, someone dies, etc
unless you'd have us switch between the two constantly :O
 
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