Account Ownership Discussion

Torebaraku

Dalayan Beginner
Allow me to preface this post by stating, quite clearly, several things:

First of all, I have searched for other threads pertaining to this topic but found none. So my I offer my apologies if I am beating some dead, long-forgotten horse. I am in no way trying to undermine or challenge the administration's rules or decisions in the to-be-referenced situation, rally support of any kind, or get any type of sympathy for whatever reason. I don't intend for this post to come off as whining or complaining, or like I'm trying to be some type of attention whore.

I am posting this because I, personally, was not aware that this could even happen until it did. And it absolutely sucks. I want to see if this happens frequently or if it is common knowledge that this type of scenario should be avoided. I'd also like to help insure that this doesn't happen to anyone else.

To fill all of you in, here is a very brief description of what happened:

This occurred when I was new to SoD. I was playing my lowbie when a higher level (45) character approached me and stated: "I'm done with SoD. You can have my account if you want, the information is blahblah / blahblah. Later." He then logged off and I had no way of ever contacting him again.

I thought to myself that this was a terrific stroke of good luck to have a retired player donate his account to me. I logged onto the account, changed the password, and made myself at home. Once my own character was high enough, I two-boxed the characters almost exclusively.

Personally, and like many of you, no doubt, I do not have a lot of time to play or commit to groups, so my progress is very slow and spread out. In fact, the only reason I was even able to gain worthwhile experience on my own was because I had both accounts and characters at my disposal. Needless to say, getting each character to 63 was an extremely time-consuming ordeal for me - as it is for everyone. I invested a great deal of time and effort into the account for more than a year.

At one point, I became very busy with work and my classes, so I decided to take a break while I focused on those areas. To my great dismay, when I decided to return, I found that the account's password had been changed. I checked the Fomelo and discovered that someone had started playing the character again - they had leveled him up and gathered a few AAs.

It turns out that the original owner had decided to come back to reclaim his old account. He took the account that I had worked so hard on.

Unbeknownst to me at that time, since he was the only one that knew the original registration email, he held ultimate control of the account the entire time and there was no way I could change it. While under the premise that the account was now mine, I was disillusioned: The final result would be that I had simply, unwittingly, equipped and leveled a stranger's character through some of the game's hardest levels.

I understand now that the law of the land states that the original account owner always has rights to reclaim an account.

Couldn't this be exploited by, for example, creating a new account and a new character, leveling the character up some, giving the account to someone that the creator believes (for whatever reason) will level it up, and then abandoning the account only to come back later and reap the other's hard work?

I am by no means saying that I believe what happened to me was done maliciously, but does it matter? The result is the same.

If this is to be the rule, shouldn't there be a way to give absolute ownership of an account to someone else? Otherwise, it should be stated, very explicitly, that if you are given a stranger's account, accept it at your own risk. Maybe it is stated somewhere, I wish I had seen it. I wish I had known that while I played that character, my time and efforts were always jeopardized beyond my control.

The administration said they could do nothing to help me and that I must contact the person currently playing the account and discuss it with him. I have had no luck contacting the person these past several weeks.

I should also clarify this, I'm not arguing with the administration's decision. I disagree with it, of course, but I know they do their best to be fair. Honestly, assuming the original account creator did not do this intentionally, I can hardly blame him. He must have come back some time later while I was on my break and figured that I, too, had decided to quit, abandoning all of my work. I absolutely hate that this happened to me and hope that no others have found themselves in this unfortunate situation.

So, please discuss. Did I screw up from the beginning by accepting the account? Did I just miss all of the signs early on that I was falling into a potential trap? Does anyone else think that there should there be a way to permanently transfer ownership of an account to another player? And I apologize if I'm making a big deal out of something that is, in fact, made blatantly obvious somewhere (I remember reading the rule about original account ownership somewhere, I don't remember).

Anyway, thanks for your time and input.
 
Yes, it can potentially be exploited, which is why you should not accept an account from someone unless you trust them as a person.
 
I accepted another players account info some time ago, and played their character only for a few days, since they were already 65, and had retired from their raiding guild. I got a total of like 2 AAs while I was just farming gear for my own character, so I didn't lose anything really when that person decided it was a good time to come back. Still wish I could get some easy money like I could then, but hey, its their account ya know?

There should be an option though in the account info page to change e-mail addresses though, but also a like an identification question. That way, the person would have to tell you the answer to their question in order for you to change the e-mail, meaning they know the won't get the account back, that would make it a much better way to protect accounts and still be able to change ownership. And it lets the person playing the said account know that they are playing safely, or at their own risk.
 
I feel for you, but as someone who has taken over a few accounts (from people I know), I always play them with the thought that someday they could go back to the original owner. For me, this would be good since I would rather have them back in game than have their accounts. In short, though I know you now have already learned, you shouldn't take an account from someone you don't know and expect to keep it as your own.

-Farcy
 
I feel for your situation, but I'm not sure there's a good alternative to the current rule. I left for a year and a half and gave Hasrett to Jose. At the time, someone (Zodium? Liam?) asked me to confirm for sure who would have ownership of Hasrett in my absence, and since Jose was the only one who asked, I said he would be the owner. AFAIK, at that time you truly could give accounts away; I certainly thought that ownership of Rett had passed from myself to Jose. I came back to find that the rules now state that even if you give away an account, it's still ultimately yours.

Because Jose's an old friend and took such good care of Rett, I'm not about to up and say "It's mine, bitch!" But if I didn't know the person, I could easily imagine taking the account back. In this particular case it doesn't even matter, since Jose is on a hiatus of his own.

I think I had a point to make with all that rambling. Something to the effect of: I'm sorry you got screwed, but I can see where the other guy is coming from. Also, I think it's probably a good policy overall on the administration's part, since allowing the permanent transfer of accounts could give rise to a lot of really bitter disputes.

My best advice to you is... find a guild with lots of bots! You'll never be without!
 
I think I probably would have payed the monthly donation fee, and transfered the char to another account under my name.

Sorry you got screwed on this though =-(

Soraken
 
shawnluc said:
I think I probably would have payed the monthly donation fee, and transfered the char to another account under my name.

Wouldn't work. From the Account Moves post:

Wiz said:
Requests
Email your request to [email protected] with the following small form included. The email must be from the address that is currently listed on the account you want the move from.

Which is as it should be, IMO. Otherwise it would be too easy to steal characters you happen to have the account info to, and cause many headaches for the staff.
 
except for the fact that it is very easy to fake an email address. I could easily send you an email that looked like it came from wiz to you, All I would have to know is the email address associated with the account.
 
shawnluc said:
I think I probably would have payed the monthly donation fee, and transfered the char to another account under my name.

Sorry you got screwed on this though =-(

Soraken

You'd get banned for trying.
 
TBH your best bet is probably to do what you can to get in touch with the original player of the character and see if you can talk them into at least returning the droppables you obtained on the character, or something of equivalent value. Obviously that person gets the final call, but it's worth a try. I don't know if the staff would be willing to contact the person for you via e-mail if you can't get in touch with him/her in-game, and either have them get in touch with you or even help mediate some sort of solution, but it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Like I said, though, if all else fails... guild bots ftw! Or, failing that, hack a GM account, make yourself level 70, and go off on a rant in OOC about how everyone should worship you as a god. Until you get banned.
 
Hasrett said:
I think I had a point to make with all that rambling. Something to the effect of: I'm sorry you got screwed, but I can see where the other guy is coming from. Also, I think it's probably a good policy overall on the administration's part, since allowing the permanent transfer of accounts could give rise to a lot of really bitter disputes.

This is a pretty black and white case to me. The only problem is the murky rules set by Wiz. (Don's the fireproof suit) -- Yes yes I know, I won't be popular for my opinion but nonetheless.

A- The guy gave the account away. (Simple, period. End of story. As far as I am concerned, he lost all rights to the account as soon as he did that. Show me some where in life where you give something to someone and then, at some later date expect to take it back).

B- I used a quote there, because of the whole "Bitter disputes" bit, I just wanted to keep it in context. (Basically, There would be no disputes, because it should either be:

> Yes, You can trade accounts, however if you do so, you lose all rights to that account forever. No 2nd chances. (so if you don't want to give it away, delete it, or forget about it

or

> No, You cannot trade accounts period.

Those are the options in my eyes. The way it is set up currently I think would lead to more problems than anything else, I just find it utterly, and unimaginably insane, to think that someone can give you something, and then just take it back whenever they want.

Sorry that's not the way things work (at least not anywhere except bizzaro world).

In any case, personally I think the OP got royally screwed and I am sorry the guy that took the account back was such a wanker. Perhaps you could share his name with me privately so I can avoid having any dealings with the person.

Cheers.

P.s. I understand that many people swap accounts back and forth, using them for buffs, or farming, or .. well whatever, and of course, should my version of the rules be instated then it would be quite possible for someone to steal the account. However, I feel if you give out your account info willing to another person and they burn you, its your own fault.

So really, I don't see the problem :)

Anyways, don't mind me playing the Devil's Advocate in this case your honor hehe, but I just felt it needed to be said.
 
Your idea's all well and good in principle, but it's just not practical. The simple fact of the matter is that people ARE going to share accounts whether there's risk involved or not. Raid guilds generally depend on it. If there's the risk of having an account stolen, it's going to happen from time to time. When that happens, the staff is going to have to deal with a shitload of fallout from the player base. It'll mean 10x as much trouble for guilds, for the staff, and for everyone involved. What's more, it would really complicate the password recovery system. Your suggestion would require either A) making it so you can change the email associated with the account for pword retrieval, or B) eliminating the e-mail based pword retrieval system altogether. If you did the former, that would make it absurdly easy for someone to steal an account if they knew the original email, simply by changing the e-mail address and doing a pword change. If you went with the latter, well, a lot of people would be fucked.

If you go with the middle ground, allowing accounts to be given away for good upon the express intent of the previous owner, it's create all kinds of he sad-she said bullshit, and probably encourage a lot of fraud. The end result would be a lot of work for the admins, figuring out who really did or didn't say and/or do what in order to sort out the rightful owner of the account. I'm fairly sure that this used to be the policy here, and it was probably changed for exactly that reason. Too much work for the admins, and too susceptible to fraud.

The current system, where the original owner retains superior title to all others, is the easiest on the admins, and probably the most practical. As long as everyone involved knows that any transfer of account is subject to the return of the original owner, subsequent possessors can plan around that. The only thing required to make it fair is notice, and since it's in one of the stickied MUST READ threads in the discussion forum, I'd say notice is constructively given.

The only downside is for those who were given a character before the current rule was put into place, so they may have reasonably relied on their apparent ownership of the account. I honestly can't think of a solution for this problem that wouldn't create a hell of a lot of trouble for the admins. It may not be the most fair thing in the world, but realistically speaking, I think you pretty much just have to say they're shit out of luck if they get burned.
 
Even if you give away the original email address - where does that inevitably lead you? Potentially there will be two players each claiming to own an account. I'd be surprised if the admin didn't downright delete the account just to avoid that headache.

Without something valuable and (generally) uncompromised (credit card) behind every account, it's really difficult to say who owns it. The best solution for the admin is something easy and concrete, but that's what's creating these situations where players have permanent incontestable rights to any account they create.

If this is the system that the admin is planning to stick with, then they need to make a better effort to let the general populous know that this type of thing can happen. I'd wager 90% of players don't read through all of the sticky posts in all of the different sections to learn things like this. I thought I was familiar with the rules, but I never knew about this particular one until recently. And while it may seem like an obscure situation worthy of only a small blurb on a forum's sticky topic, it's absolutely critical that players know this IMHO.
 
Torebaraku said:
If this is the system that the admin is planning to stick with, then they need to make a better effort to let the general populous know that this type of thing can happen. I'd wager 90% of players don't read through all of the sticky posts in all of the different sections to learn things like this. I thought I was familiar with the rules, but I never knew about this particular one until recently. And while it may seem like an obscure situation worthy of only a small blurb on a forum's sticky topic, it's absolutely critical that players know this IMHO.

Likely we could brow beat players over the head with our rules and policies, and most would still claim they werent aware of them. We do our best to inform, and keep informed, but theres a point where players need to accept responsibility. I agree, in this situation, it sucks, but the policy isnt really unclear, it states the original owner retains ownership regardless.
 
Oh I agree that the rules are the rules and regardless of how much it sucks for the person that lost that work, thats just the way things are.

I just felt that what I said, needed to be said.

In the end, no matter what is done, what rules are in place, and anything else the dev staff try to do, or neglect to do, there will always be an issue with a player who isn't happy about something. It's an inevitable and unchangeable fact of life.

Just can't please everyone all of the time, so try to please most of the people most of the time :)

Personally I have said it before, but I will say it again, this is without a doubt the best privately owned and operated server I have ever been on. So while I am sure there are things that could be tweaked more to my way of thinking, (just like I am sure there are things that could be changed more to the way others think),That these rules are simply what work best out of the current alternatives for the dev staff and we will just have to live with it.

Cheers.
 
Torebaraku said:
Even if you give away the original email address - where does that inevitably lead you? Potentially there will be two players each claiming to own an account. I'd be surprised if the admin didn't downright delete the account just to avoid that headache.

Without something valuable and (generally) uncompromised (credit card) behind every account, it's really difficult to say who owns it. The best solution for the admin is something easy and concrete, but that's what's creating these situations where players have permanent incontestable rights to any account they create.

If this is the system that the admin is planning to stick with, then they need to make a better effort to let the general populous know that this type of thing can happen. I'd wager 90% of players don't read through all of the sticky posts in all of the different sections to learn things like this. I thought I was familiar with the rules, but I never knew about this particular one until recently. And while it may seem like an obscure situation worthy of only a small blurb on a forum's sticky topic, it's absolutely critical that players know this IMHO.

As far as I know, whoever has the registration email can claim complete ownership of the account. There is really no headache involved. Is there not an automated process to reset password and have it sent to the reg. email?

I actually can not even remember my own registration email :tinfoil:
 
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