A discussion about Tank Archetype Balance

So anyways I've been boxing Anti a lot, and I really think that paladin's should have Martyrs intercession. It's way to good to be on a cleric and it would pretty much fix all the problems Paladin's have and make them great again. It might need some adjusting to not be totally OP on the pally but they should have a spell very similar to it, there is just no excuse. Either way the spell provides aggro, healing, DPS and makes paladins viable MT's again.
 
Want everyone to know I suggested that first >< it just makes sense. The antithesis to SK leeching, yet still competitive, cleric line just like most of pally spells. Bam.
 
I feel like a modified version would be cool. Maybe replace the self heals with those. Quick cast time, slightly more dmg than cleric to be in line with the Paladin "front line fighter" concept of healer tank. I don't want to say less healing, as I feel cleric version is kinda low hp wise.

If the Paladin self heals were converted into this, and has recast lowered to be on par with Cleric version + more dmg/ less healing/ + aggro. Would be *a* fix... maybe not *the* fix
 
I don't see why the self heals would need to be replaced. Even with a Martyrs-like spell the self heals would still have a niche. If too many heals is a problem they could just be on the same timer but I doubt it actually would be a problem.

I like the idea though. Also any increase to heal aggro would be great.
 
Dimmi said:
Would a passive aggro adjustment be a thing that could be done as well? Paladins already give their group the ability to melee crit on undead, would they be able to adjust aggro modifyers in group as well? i.e. - Hey I'm in the paladin group I generate 2% less hate for everything I do (and potentially the paladin generates 1% more, like a passive mini-veil that's always on?). That would help paladins a bit on aggro without really crapping on anything too badly I think?
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Best idea i've seen!

as far as the martyrs incession or w/e its called. Why would you want ANOTHER spell to put on your spellbar? Your spell bar is croweded enough as it is, when flame of light came into play that was everyone's major concern!
 
flame of light should prob be boosted to 1000 hate. for comparison, highest SK terror is 2025 hate.
 
Sateru said:
I don't see why the self heals would need to be replaced. Even with a Martyrs-like spell the self heals would still have a niche. If too many heals is a problem they could just be on the same timer but I doubt it actually would be a problem.

I like the idea though. Also any increase to heal aggro would be great.
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I just say replace the Self heals with these Archon Hammer/ Martyr's Incession type spells because not only will it be doing the same job as the self heal, it also adds the dmg and potentially hate that would go along with what's being asked.

Just for simplicity sake, lets say Blessing of Althuna self heal does a base of 400hp heal. Make it into Strike of Altuna, does a single target DD of maybe... 100? 200? Self heal for 300, and target Hate increase of 250-300.

You lose a little healing, add some damage, and increase hate from both dmg and spell increased pure hate. Same cool down as self heals currently, quick cast time, and spots on spell bar.
 
As a paladin I like the Martyrr's idea however, I really would not like to see self heals removed or changed. Just because there are many situations where a paladin is chosen to tank a mob because they don't want ANY damage (mirror golem situations, a certain spires mob comes to mind) and there are many other situations where I would still love my self heals.

People will attest, most of the time I have really no problems keeping aggro whatsoever even on the best DPS in the game (Solosolki / Rein / Dimmi / Kedrin) etc. But I have definitely found AE aggro lately very challenging as really there is only 2 good spells to help address the issue.

Our biggest flaw with aggro, is the inability to target something cast a spell, and it come directly to us (Runic 2 does HELP this issue). You have to land 2-3 spells to take aggro, and by that time the damage has been done, the healer has had to switch to heal a caster or dps, the tank has died to lack of heals because the DPS got his heal, and the raid is bound to be in trouble or wipe.

Heals are supposed to make up for our mitigation difference, but the problem is, if we want to cast them at the time they are needed, 90% of the time that means losing aggro (Before runic 2 especially, I will attest it is harder for sure to keep aggro off of the top DPS on your teir, you need to be doing a complete proper rotation and hope for no resists.)

I think the class itself needs to be overhalled a bit to be balanced with SK's in particular, but I do think adding a little something, or adjusting a few spells could really help. For example making flame of light a bit more aggro, and not have a long recast would be pretty cool.

As for AE aggro, the biggest problem i have usually is when its more than 5-6 targets, could AE blind / stun be for unlimited targets within range ? because i really think that would help a lot.

Not really sure what the solution is overall, but i think having something that would allow us to dps aggro and heal simuntaniously like a martyr's would be a pretty cool add.
 
Vitali said:
I just say replace the Self heals with these Archon Hammer/ Martyr's Incession type spells because not only will it be doing the same job as the self heal, it also adds the dmg and potentially hate that would go along with what's being asked.

Just for simplicity sake, lets say Blessing of Althuna self heal does a base of 400hp heal. Make it into Strike of Altuna, does a single target DD of maybe... 100? 200? Self heal for 300, and target Hate increase of 250-300.

You lose a little healing, add some damage, and increase hate from both dmg and spell increased pure hate. Same cool down as self heals currently, quick cast time, and spots on spell bar.
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There is no reason to replace the self heals. Even if the heal amounts were the same.
 
Add agro back to heals.
Let pallys cleansing blow vs everything.
Switch s4 to 10% mitigation (and maybe +10% crit rate if were being nice)

Those seem like the simplest changes that would address paladin issues IMO.

The martyr idea could work, but paladins have issues with spellgems as it, and I'm not sure what numbers would really be balanced. Its also effectively kinda the same as a lifetap which feels a bit weird.
 
Spellgems aren't really a problem for me. It's shouldn't be a problem for most people as long as they don't try to have one size fits all spellsets.
 
I have a bunch of different spell set ups for different situations / zones saved, more on the pally than any other class I play so far, so adding spells just means tweak that set up. I don't see that as much of a big problem if it helps the class.

That being said what Solo said about martyr's being like a lifetap, that does seem a bit odd for a paladin to have. Perhaps a DD for say 875 base (like Blessing of Malath), and that damage is spread over the the group as a heal, Vim style - minimum of ~150 heal if everyone is hurting, but if its just the tank + one or 2 others in need of heals could be ~300. Seems more do-goody, less selfish.

I'm amazed this thread has stayed so level headed and respectable 3 pages in!
 
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Kakos said:
I don't know guys... with both the healers and tanks I keep seeing posts concerned that their class can't do something as well as the other type can. Isn't that the point of different classes.. so they all have different roles and have unique strengths and weaknesses.. I'd rather see that then try to cater to make each class can do everything the other class can.

I think that in mitigation mode that warriors SHOULD have best melee dps with Paladins and SK's only having comparable melee dps if they use 2hs. Pally melee dps should be comparable to SK. If it's not then I would be all for a tweak. SK's should have better caster dps than pally's as they have heals.

The only change that I think should be necessary is to better define the Pally as the AoE tank and scrap the Veil line of spells for SK's... I think SK's are entrenching on Pally territory and I'd like to see that scrapped. SK should be king of single target threat, Pally's of multiple target threat.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you 100% -- there should be distinction between the tank classes. However, since the Terror revamp, introduction of the Veil line, and the Warrior stance/stamina revamp, balance between the tank classes has been poorly maintained within what I have subjectively identified below as the important tanking categories:

Overall DPS:
Warriors
Shadowknights
Paladins (very convincingly last)

Mitigation:
Warriors
Shadowknights
Paladins

Single target aggro:
Shadowknights
Warriors
Paladins

Multiple target aggro:
Shadowknights
Paladins
Warriors

As you can see for yourself, the way I have the rankings setup put Warriors as #1 within 2 categories, and SKs being #1 within the other 2 categories. Of course, this is a very simple way to break down balance between tank classes; and the distance between classes on some of the lists are not equal to the respective distances between them on the other lists. However, I would be surprised if anyone had a reasonable dispute with the rankings above.
 
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I really think that adding aggro back to the self heals is the way to go. The key would have to be altering how it generates hate, basing it off of the amount of health it COULD heal not how much it actually heals since that would be utterly unreliable in a raid setting. I'm also not sure how much hate is generated per 1hp of healing so those numbers might need to be tweaked but if you were to set it at a ratio that provided paladins with supplemental aggro you'd have a line of spells that allowed for unresistable aggro on unlimited targets with the catch of not being able to aggro targets you're not already on the hate-list of and ideally not providing you with enough hate to maintain aggro with just them alone. It wouldn't require any sweeping changes to the class and it would reward them in a niche appropriate way as well as bring up the value of their self heals at a point where their usefulness declines due to their HP bar becoming a yo-yo.
 
Man, I began SoD as a whiney SK. I remember when pallys were the BOSS, then I left for two years and come back whining on behalf of pallys who are now pretty gimp. If only I had persevered with my SK!

It's clearly pretty difficult to maintain a distinction between classes that do basically the same thing whilst making them equal and if SoD is still around in a year (and I hope it is), SK and Pal might be happy and War will feel left in the ditch who knows. That being said there are some good suggestions on this thread, if I'm not mistaken a Dev hasn't weighed in yet though? * Except Marza in the beginning*

Is it likely that Pallys will get a boost or is the discussion moot?
 
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