A discussion about Tank Archetype Balance

Obscenitor

Obscenitor

Dalayan Elder
Baxters said:
lol screw you guys.. make a new thread if you wanna dissect FWF dps.
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Okay.

Radaere said:
Quote:
Xach
--- DMG: 309369 (4.59%) @ 515 dps (514 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 342708 @569dps

Bango
--- DMG: 181320 (2.69%) @ 309 dps (301 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 435299 @751dps

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Quote:
Xach
--- DMG: 285488 (7.05%) @ 721 dps (719 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 182754 @462dps

Bango
--- DMG: 112842 (2.79%) @ 284 dps (284 sdps)
--- DMG to PC: 139151 @351dps

Special: 7: 7th yr vet G: Glyph K: Kiss S: Staunch X: Slain $: Saved by DI
Produced by GamParse v1.0.3
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Bango tanking in first parse, Xach tanking in second parse. I used Jyre in both fights (best 2HS in game). This is a prime example of how class balance does not exist within archetypes, anyone that thinks otherwise is foolish. I have more to post but I will be off the grid this weekend so likely won't revisit the thread until Sunday night. I wanted to get something started as I have been meaning to post about this for a long time now.
 
Obscenitor said:
Okay.



Bango tanking in first parse, Xach tanking in second parse. I used Jyre in both fights (best 2HS in game). This is a prime example of how class balance does not exist within archetypes, anyone that thinks otherwise is foolish. I have more to post but I will be off the grid this weekend so likely won't revisit the thread until Sunday night. I wanted to get something started as I have been meaning to post about this for a long time now.
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You forgot the part where a druid and his pet did twice as much damage as you did
 
Honestly I am less worried about how much dps the paladin isn't doing than how much overall threat the paladin isn't generating. The fact that paladins do less dps than warriors and SKs is not really anything new. It is not like they have a whole lot of options outside of auto attacking and the occasional spell at this point. It really is no surprise their dps is so low.

Something should be done though to bring up their threat though or SOMETHING.
 
Marza said:
Honestly I am less worried about how much dps the paladin isn't doing than how much overall threat the paladin isn't generating. The fact that paladins do less dps than warriors and SKs is not really anything new. It is not like they have a whole lot of options outside of auto attacking and the occasional spell at this point. It really is no surprise their dps is so low.

Something should be done though to bring up their threat though or SOMETHING.
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SKs do in most cases twice the DPS of Paladins, and that would be fine, if it weren't for the fact that they also have better mitigation and far far far better threat generation.
 
200-500 sustained dps over a long time is a lot of damage done. I don't like paladins or how they work but I agree that maybe paladins could have some damaging thing.

edit: every time a paladin gets hit a cleric hammer spawns attacking the target who hit him.
 
Looking at the paladin's supposed niche in the tank archtypes, how effective/desireable would a self-only "Hate DS" that does no damage but increases threat be? Or, barring that, and in the interest of buff slots, would it be possible/desireable to add a component to paladin group HoTs that would have a similar effect? i.e. Pally tosses up a HoT, all the critters punching the paladin hate him more, and everything punching not-the-paladin-that-is-under-the-effect-of-the-paladin's-HoT hates the paladin more?

My immediate criticism of the idea is that, of course, things have to be hitting you for it to work with the hate-DS, and balancing hate generation while keeping the mechanic useful on the HoT thing. Either one has a nice divine retribution style feel to it.

I've never played a paladin before so IDK if this is a viable rabbit hole to poke noses down or not.
 
Dimmi said:
Or, barring that, and in the interest of buff slots, would it be possible/desireable to add a component to paladin group HoTs that would have a similar effect? i.e. Pally tosses up a HoT, all the critters punching the paladin hate him more, and everything punching not-the-paladin-that-is-under-the-effect-of-the-paladin's-HoT hates the paladin more?
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That is the way it was in the good old days, and then it was removed almost entirely.

Since that time, very little has changed for Paladins, yet Shadowknights get a complete revamp to their Terror line allowing them to pump out thousands of hate per second, as well as getting the ability to generate more aoe aggro than a Paladin ever could. Meanwhile Paladins get flame of light changed to a 250 hate spell that is unresistable -- basically a slap to the face of my request for unresistable aggro, oh and it has a long recast.

Edit: Divine stun was made unresistable too but that AA is 100% useless aside from pulling multiple mobs.
 
I think making paladins do more dps is a good way to increase their agro.

Tank dps can make a difference, especially on 6 man fights, and its definitely one reason Id rather take a non-paladin to a number of fights.

There are some pre-scythe-nerf Stryda parses doing over 1000 dps.

Allow paladins to land cleansing blows on all mobs, and add a tome that increases their damage (do meele crits add more hate? i know spell crits do not). Also I think a better mitigation stance would be reasonable.
 
I'm not in love with the idea of trying to increase a tank's aggro generation via DPS...that's a slippery slope where one side is "It's not enough to make a difference" and the other side is "whoa whoa whoa." Just thematically I've always loved the idea of paladins generating aggro not being "Hey this guy's dangerous" but more "I HATE THAT GUY"



Partial side note: In a table-top DnD 3.5 game at home I'm playing a Crusader from Tome of Battle for the first time. The underlying principle behind the class makes me want to wet myself the good way. "If you hit me, I'm going to hit you back but harder....if you don't hit me, I'm going to hit you anyway....if you hit someone else, I'm REALLY gonna make you wish you hadn't."
 
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Rorne said:
My suggestion was restore aggro generation (perhaps through a tome) to paladin self heals but base it off potential hitpoints healed not actual and decide on a reasonable hp:hate ratio. This would give paladins an unresistable form of aggro generation vs everything they are currently on the hatelist of that scales with Healing Increment etc. This would also increase the value of their self heals in a raid setting.
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Reposting this because I think it has some merit.
 
Rorne said:
Reposting this because I think it has some merit.
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Honestly this is not a bad idea, although I am not really in love with the idea of linking it to a tome.

I have no idea why threat was removed from paladin heals. Dumb
 
Marza said:
Honestly this is not a bad idea, although I am not really in love with the idea of linking it to a tome.

I have no idea why threat was removed from paladin heals. Dumb
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Yeah the only reason I mentioned a tome is because it seems to be a more apparent problem in the microcosm of the highend. Not that I am saying it's a problem that only exists there I just don't have a grasp on how much it would skew in the lower tiers right now.
 
High end pally agro doesnt seem so bad once they have runic 2. I personally think their lack of dps and mitigation compared to sk/war is a bigger detriment, and wizards benefit more from super-sk-agro more than most classes.

That said I think the heal+agro thing would be a great change. Its pretty silly how little AE agro scales, and then SKs get runic 2 and become the premier AE tank.
 
Silosobi said:
Its pretty silly how little AE agro scales, and then SKs get runic 2 and become the premier AE tank.
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they took away the one thing a pally could do better than any other class, and made the SK not only have it but it's more effective then a pally's.
 
kdko said:
You should have just come out and said 'don't listen to anything I have to say'
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It's one thing to troll Loose Platinum, but don't shit up a thread trying to legitimately suggest a fix to issues.

Thanks in advance friend.
 
Marza said:
Honestly this is not a bad idea, although I am not really in love with the idea of linking it to a tome.

I have no idea why threat was removed from paladin heals. Dumb
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I don't main a Paladin, however I have played many in the past. I do like the idea of Group HoTs and Self Heals increasing aggro. I also don't like the idea of it being linked to a tome. I think it should be something all Paladins can benefit from, regardless of tier and AA/Tome count. Similar to Terrors for SKs, tomes can make them better but are still good from the start.
 
Yeah, I know most paladins are shameless loot/attention whores but something needs to happen regarding their +aggro capabilities. When a monk using WW stance can take aoe aggro over uzzdaar even after I consecrate/sanctify/aoe blind then something is wrong.
 
Are there not any hate generation clicks available to paladins? all I am really seeing here is dps, and basic spell casts which leaves me wondering are the pallys throwing the kitchen sink into their tanking or just following a doctrine of , hmm all I can do is stun , blind and hope the mobs hates me.

I havent played a pally for awile but tank along side one fairly often and am left thinking they just dont want to work at it. My hate gen routine consists of solid High pt Damage shield , A weapon proc buff , foelock , wardkeeper mask atk debuff click , linked taunt,bask/kick/disarm , Scrimshaw blowgun DoT click , Cmal revamp guantlet recourse click , Cmal pre-revamp gauntlet recourse click , well ill stop there I have a few more but I think hate gen is something ya need to work at , not just stand there cast a couple spells and stick your finger in the dyke and pray.

Perhaps if anything increase the amount of targets pally AE can hit to balance some of that late game AE aggro SK's seem to have. But hate gen hmm I gots to know !!! Are they doing enough ?
 
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