Whirlwind the 2 hander

Cyzaine

Cyzaine

Staff Emeritus
Whirlwind (We will be discussing the 2H variant, if the 1H does indeed drop still.)

Problem - Stats are lack luster at best for all classes that can use the item.

This item drops from Before You Wake, the last boss in Plane of Nightmare. He has been consistently rated as a tier 6 mob, though like any rating system this is up for debate (he probably sits at the lower end of 6). I believe this item needs a boost in stats given his tier, the quality of his other loot, and the quality of comparable items in his tier (see below). The 2HS whirlwind is neither a good melee weapon, nor do the stats or effects really make it desirable for other uses.

Now the comparisons. Starting with Whirlwind itself
Whirlwind
*ratio = 1.437
*hp = 125
*mana = 230
*allegedly poor stats and disappointing effects

Klazka, the Mirror Blade - Drops from a tier 6 encounter
*ratio = 1.533
*hp = 200
*mana = 200
*other great stats and a proc.

Alakazarr, Grand Summoner - Drops from a tier 6 encounter
*ratio = not important but .76 for completeness
*hp = 145
*mana = 225
*great effects very strong stats

Ritual Staff of Xavara - Drops from an easy tier 6 encounter
*ratio = 1.457
*hp = 185
*mana = 115
*fairly strong stats for those who can use it

Great Axe of Sacrafice - Drops from the final boss of another tier 6 zone
*ratio = 1.5
*hp = 195
*mana = 125
*decent strong effect and solid stats.


I believe that having Nec on that item is what's hurting it, as it tries to be useful to melee's and a random int caster and turns out fairly lackluster for both. A Necro will never swing it and its stats are beaten by most combinations of tier 5 1h items, and the ratio and proc aren't very good for non MT classes. The focus effect, humorously, can be attained by each of those classes that can make use of it from a tier 5ish fight in the form of the Sabatons of the Dead off Xaxaran in the same zone, a far easier encounter to reach and do.

I believe first off, that the ratio needs to be increased to be more in line with the Great Axe, the most direct comparison it has. Upping the ratio to even 1.45 would be a marked improvement, but closer to 1.5 wouldn't be unreasonable. The proc (which I assume goes off frequentlyish) is likely the draw of the weapon, but I don't think its good enough to warrant the poor ratio.

As mentioned above, I think Necro on this item hurts it, as I could never see any necromancer who gets this far, ever using it. The stats could be made more melee-centric without Nec there, and the entire weapon improved. Regardless I think a stat overhaul is in order. More hitpoints are a must, and adding about 5 to all stats would bring it a bit more in line with the other 2h'ers of its tier. The resists on it are sort of a bonus, but more of them could make it desirable as well. Really the point I must state again is it tries to have everything, and does it so poorly as to be just lackluster.

Finally I don't think there is any reason it can't have at least Healing Inc 6 on it. It's a 2 handed weapon. It takes up 2 slots, and Tier 5 boots match its focus effect and many of its stats.

You ramble too much, give me a summary
The 2h Whirlwind needs
*a ratio closer to 1.5
*better or more focused stats
*possible removal of NEC as a usable class
*improved focus effect

Seriously, consider removing NEC from it (no matter how cool Necro's with quack staves are) and focusing the stats more. It simply doesn't seem to fit into any sort of proper progression to me.
 
This is a well thought out and detailed thread, however, the reason Whirlwind (in either form) is SO amazing (read, the BEST exp. weapon in the game for knights) is the proc. The proc is a HUGE ae stun that generates an obscene amount of aggro and it enables knights to swear pariah and get an easy access to AE aggro.

I never think taking slots/classes/races off items is the way to go. If that class doesn't want to use it, don't send a tell. Some people DO want to use it, though.

Honestly, the ratio is pretty solid for the other tricks the weapon has. I really do not think it needs changed at all.

Just my 2cp.
 
Spiritplx said:
... it enables knights to swear pariah and get an easy access to AE aggro.
Click to expand...

Ok Shadow Knights, now you all know just how easy it is to get AoE aggro.

First, you give up your Diety and any chance at their future augs / quests.

Second, you give up a decent amount of your melee weapon ratio.

Third, you give up a decent amount of stats.

Fourth, you have to get flag for and raid BYW enough to get the damn thing to drop.

Hey if this weapon is supposed to be the booby prize / gimicky exp weapon then so be it. That just seems kinda :psyduck: to me from this level of encounter.
 
Tempus said:
Ok Shadow Knights, now you all know just how easy it is to get AoE aggro.

First, you give up your Diety and any chance at their future augs / quests.

Second, you give up a decent amount of your melee weapon ratio.

Third, you give up a decent amount of stats.

Fourth, you have to get flag for and raid BYW enough to get the damn thing to drop.

Hey if this weapon is supposed to be the booby prize / gimicky exp weapon then so be it. That just seems kinda :psyduck: to me from this level of encounter.
Click to expand...

Otherwise, they DON'T get AE aggro at all. So yeah.

Paladins still use this weapon in exp. groups and on raids when they are way passed that tier.

Get the 1h version of the weapon if the 2h seems lackluster. Being able to use the 1h or 2h version seems pretty fucking good to me. Variety is the spice of life.

Remember Stormrazor from Air? Awesome ratio but no proc or hitpoints. Sometimes you have to trade ratio, stats, or a proc to make other areas of the weapon awesome.

The weapon is REALLY good.

Edit: Though ratio and DPS is cute for knights, their primary role is holding aggro. This weapon helps with that, and having a slightly less ratio is fair.
 
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Spiritplx said:
Otherwise, they DON'T get AE aggro at all. So yeah.
Click to expand...

Level 30 SK Spell
Wave of Enfeeblement

Level 60 Spell
Shout of Agony

PoAir Lower Named
Prismatic Crystal Katana
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM NO DROP
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 1HS Atk Delay: 16
DMG: 11
Effect: Color Shift (Combat)
DEX: +8
SV FIRE: +15 SV DISEASE: +15 SV COLD: +15 SV MAGIC: +15 SV POISON: +15
Recommended level of 45.
WT: 2.5 Size: TINY
Class: WAR PAL RNG SHD BRD ROG
Race: ALL

Freport Named - Isn't even No Drop
Earth Splitter, Axe of Destruction
MAGIC ITEM LORE ITEM
Slot: PRIMARY
Skill: 2H Slash Atk Delay: 41
DMG: 45
Effect: Tremor (Combat)
STR: +6 DEX: +4 WIS: +2 INT: +2
Weight: 8.0 Size: Large
Class: WAR PAL SHD
Race: ALL

There are some others out there too. Since your argument is basically stats and ratio be damned, this is about a way to get SK pariahs some aoe aggro here are some alternative ways for them to do just that. Hell if you want to aoe tank as an SK get the PoAir katana so you can still use a shield. The fact remains that as a 2HS the Whirlwind tries to fit too many classes and ends up just being "meh" for all of them. Except for when a SK doesn't have any other means of PB AoE aggro (the above 4 listed items coming from easier encounters or vendors) while exping.
 
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Spiritplx said:
I never think taking slots/classes/races off items is the way to go. If that class doesn't want to use it, don't send a tell. Some people DO want to use it, though.
Click to expand...

The problem is by the time you're doing this encounter, it's not good enough for anyone to send a tell. Even booby prizes usually get picked up the first time or two you get it.

Oh, except maybe for those pariah SKs.... :monocle:

BTW, NONE of the SKs in the Top 5 thread are pariahs. Maybe going pariah isn't such a good thing to do for an SK? Guess it may not be worth it after all, according to the real SKs, eh?
 
I guess with all the new content added WW may have lost some of its power, but I still think its a great weapon. Comparing the WW with Klazka isn't exactly right since BYW is a joke compared to MGs. A ratio if 1.43 compared to 1.45 from a Sepulcher encounter is fairly comparable.

WW is a reliable source of AE aggro, it is not a one shot every 30 minutes that gets resisted a lot, or a level 30 spell that no SK ever uses. I could also mem some of my lower level nukes for aggro, but I have higher level ones that do the job better. WW gives you the AE aggro without sacrificing all of your ratio (I like how you compared a 1.097 ratio weapon with a terrible proc with a 1.43 ratio weapon with an excellent proc and good stats).

Most top5 SKs aren't pariah because I never said its the BEST way to go. I said that it gives SKs the OPTION to obtain a reliable source of AE aggro and said its the best experience weapon in the game. I never said it was the best raiding weapon. Also, all of the top 5 Shadowknights were above Nightmare tier when it came out, so they never thought of the option or some don't even know about it. Also, Bounta was top5 paladin for a LONG time and had WW equipped.

What new stuff have they added that none of your paladins want this weapon for a 1h?

P.S. This is how A LOT of itemization is from here on out. Many items fit niches or are situational only. Items are not always a straight upgrade from tier to tier. Welcome to SoD raiding.
 
Perhaps I'm missing something, such as a turn in that makes the 1hs a 2hs or something, but otherwise I don't believe that the 1hs version is important at all in this discussion. Since you bring up however, if you had both the 1hs and 2hs version, which would you use? I think you can agree that its only the proc that makes this weapon at all useful, you don't seem to disagree on most other aspects, so why not avoid the 2hs version, wait for the 1hs version and then use it and a shield or off hand for better benefits all around?

Really my biggest gripe is that any 2h item essentially takes away a slot from you. If the item does not make up for it either in stats, effects, or some kind of utility, then why would you use it? It is in that respect that I think the 2hs Whirlwind needs an upgrade.

Once again if I am missing something, please enlighten me.
 
Spiritplx said:
P.S. This is how A LOT of itemization is from here on out. Many items fit niches or are situational only. Items are not always a straight upgrade from tier to tier. Welcome to SoD raiding.
Click to expand...

Thanks for explaining this to me. i wasn't aware of how SoD worked.

The items and spells I posted above ARE aoe aggro options for SK's, which was in direct reply to you saying:

Otherwise, they DON'T get AE aggro at all. So yeah.
Click to expand...

Tyrsell and I both have gone out of our way to say we are discussing the 2H version so I don't get why you even ask:

What new stuff have they added that none of your paladins want this weapon for a 1h?
Click to expand...

I think the 1H version is pretty nice as is.
 
I don't believe the two-hander was ever meant to be good. The stats and ratio at its tier are such that anyone would reasonably :psyduck: and then give it to someone they were working to backgear. This is why the 1h version exists. Keep digging for answers.
 
Enlightening indeed. Tricky bastards. I'll certainly follow this one to the end.

I don't believe this invalidates the argument on poor stats of the 2h'er. Particularly how the 1hs seems to be a scaled down version of the 2h, as if you could pick which would be best for you. The answer will always be the 1hs. Perhaps it wasn't intended to be a choice, but that strikes me as odd and unneccesary.
 
I think mobs having booby prizes isn't such a bad thing. Worse still, without it sucking there's no incentive to start digging at all.
 
Zaknafean said:
Whirlwind


Seriously, consider removing NEC from it (no matter how cool Necro's with quack staves are) and focusing the stats more. It simply doesn't seem to fit into any sort of proper progression to me.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't see the point in this. If a necro doesn't like the item he can pass it to another necro who would appreciate it. I've seen numerious necromancers desiring the two hander for various reasons and they wouldn't like necro taken off of the item
 
Iae I almost posted this, but it's true it allows to compare WW as a NEC weapon to a another specific caster weapon as I understand. And true if you look at it this way the WW seems much less attractive.
On another hand, some Prison loots are awesome like this Grand Summoner , because it's Prison.
 
Dzillon said:
Iae I almost posted this, but it's true it allows to compare WW as a NEC weapon to a another specific caster weapon as I understand. And true if you look at it this way the WW seems much less attractive.
On another hand, some Prison loots are awesome like this Grand Summoner , because it's Prison.
Click to expand...

No its because it is single class usable they are almost always better then multiclass usable items
 
Conversely it could be included because:

Zaknafean said:
I believe this item needs a boost in stats given his tier, the quality of his other loot, and the quality of comparable items in his tier (see below)[\b].
Click to expand...


and it meets one of the above criteria. As it turns out, there are not very many 2h weapons, particularly for casters, in tier 6, and it wouldn't make a ton of sense to compare it to anything a tier above or below it. So to keep the discussion releveant to my point:

Zaknafean said:
Problem - Stats are lack luster at best for all classes that can use the item.
Click to expand...

I grabbed this caster usable 2h weapon, and threw it in for comparison. It shows that a weapon, focused on a single purpose, in this case Magicians and Magician utility, can make up for it taking 2 slots. This helps support my stance that maybe the item would be better if necromancer was taken off of it (making the item purely Melee focused) and also adds supporting evidence towards my secondary gripe with the weapon, and in fact many 2h items in general:

Zaknafean said:
any 2h item essentially takes away a slot from you. If the item does not make up for it either in stats, effects, or some kind of utility, then why would you use it?
Click to expand...

Now most of this is rendered moot due to '1 way further enlightenment' and my belief that the 1h variant is a fine item that doesn't need to be tweaked at all. Still, if the idea is to give the player a choice, then the 2hs version is underpowered compared to its peers. For those who tend to skim posts just to find the quotables, let me repeat, if it was never really meant to be used 2handed then its fine, but if the idea was to give the player a choice between a 1hand or 2hand weapon, then the 2hand version needs an upgrade based on the above arguments.

If you are at all wondering how I ended up with the weapon, it was to save it from rot, as our Knights were not around at the time, or Pariah enough to loot it. Not because it was particularly an upgrade for me.
 
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