(To start, if your answer to a perceived problem pre-level 55 for a class is going to simply be "level to 65," please don't bother reading further.)
I believe that, pre-level 55, warriors are severaly outclassed by knights in groups.
Comparison of styles: (copied from another thread)
Warrior:
From wiki, non-basic warrior stances:
(4) Driving Attack 15 Increases generated hate, moderate stamina consumption
(5) Deftful Dance 15 [Small Race Only] Increase avoidance
(6) Steel Barrier 25 Decrease attack speed, increase mitigation, parry, riposte, and shield block
(7) Furious Assault 35 [Requires Two-Handed Weapon] Increase spell interrupt chance
(8) Living Shield 45 Decrease damage, increase hate, increase mitigation
(9) Unyielding Stance 55 Increase Mitigation
(10) Frenzied Attack 55 Increase attack speed, decrease avoidance, lose parry, riposte, dodge, and shield block
(11) Final Stand 60 Decrease damage taken to 1, die on exhaustion
(12) Vindicator's Stance 65 Increase Mitigation
Stance 5 is only usable by small race warriors. (And, with the change in SoD that WE and DE aren't considered small ....as it was on Live...this is one warrior stance that most warriors can never use.)
Stance 7 requires 2 handed weapons and is great for caster mobs. But, for the purpose of this argument, this stance can't be used. A tank does his/her job by keeping agro on a mob. Warrior agro generation is much lower with a 2-handed weapon versus duel wielding 1-handed weapons.
<Assumptions/Facts:> (Depending on your opinion)
1. Warriors gain agro pre-level 55 mostly via autoattacking, taunt, and Foelock in combination with stance changes only.
2. Duel wielding is very key in a grouping situation for a warrior to keep agro.
3. Very few buffers have the invigorate line or care to buff warriors with it. (And, no stamina regen items exist in SoD on equipment, unlike FT for knights.)
This leaves the following stances for use:
4: Moderate stamina usage, works very well for its purpose no matter the warrior's equipped weapons/shield at the time.
6: The first warrior "taking dmg" style. Drains stamina quickly, and slows attack speed. (Remember, attack speed = autoattack = agro generation for a warrior.) So, using a shield and this style simulataneously effectively ruins warrior agro generation.
8: The first good "tanking" style, no matter the warrior's equipped weapons/shield at the time. Drains stamina very quickly.
This leaves pre-55 warriors, who want to keep agro and tank, using a combination of style 4, 8, and basic 3 only...with very little way to regain stamina. Warriors do not get a "meditate" for their stamina bar (another knight plus), nor does "stamina regen +X" exist on equipment.
Warrior vs. Knight comparison:
SK pre-55 styles:
(4) Seething Fury 20 Increases aggro generated.
(5) Dismissive Strike 35 Increases Interruption chance and adds a dispel proc to melee.
(6) Loathing Guard 45 <10% mitigation>. Moderate to high stamina useage.
Comparison to Warrior:
1. Both style 4s are comparible and do the same thing.
2. SK style 5 is equivalent to Warrior style 7, but why do SK's get to use a shield while warriors must use a 2handed? Further, why does the SK style also have a disspell proc?
3. SK style 6 and warrior style 8 is the one place where Warrior finally pulls ahead, getting +hate and +5% mitigation.
Paladin pre-55 styles:
(4) Guarding Blade 20 Puts you into a focused stance, increasing both hate and parry. Very useful when tanking extremely hard foes or swarms of them.
(5) Cleansing Blades 35 Puts you into a focused state, increasing critical hits veruses all neutral or evil targets.
(6) Stoical Will 45 Grants the paladin immunity to fear, charm, and mesmerizing effects. Does not affect unresistable charm/mez.
Comparison to Warrior:
1. Paladin's style 4 is what a warrior should have as their style 5. (Hate + defensive abilities) Again, the paladin learned to cast spells, the warrior completely trained in melee combat. Further, this would give the warrior the ability to have a "hate only" style and a "slightly less hate than driving attack, but more defense" style for multiple mob pulls.
2. Paladin style 5...<Generally not used by paladins.>
3. Paladin style 6...<A warrior shouldn't have this, if we did...we would be berserkers and get it via "raging fury" or something equivalent.>
Therefore, my proposal to start making pre-55 warriors = to pre-55 knights in "taking dmg" and "agro generation," from a melee perspective, would be:
1. Replace Warrior style 5 with a paladin's style 4.
2. Replace Warrior style 7 with a sk's style 5.
3. Give Warriors an ability, like meditate, to up their stamina regeneration. <Not possible with client, I know.>
4. Implement "+ stamina regeneration" on equipment, to the level that FT is available for knights. <Again, probably not possible.>
5. Put "self only targeted stamina regen buff" on warrior equipment that is easily questable from warrior guildmasters. This buff would scale according to the warrior's level, but be "slightly less" than the level available from the Invigor line. (Also, I would mention that the Paladin class even gets the ability to cast Invigor...yes, at level 49... but they get it. Another bonus to paladins.)
---------------------------
Further reasons warriors are underpowered pre-55 vs. knights:
1. Most mob-dropped plate armor in SoD is made so that all 3 tanks can get a benefit from it. (This includes adding mana, +wisdom, and + intelligence.)
2. Several 1-handed weapons exist that are knight usable only, most with MUCH higher dmg/delay ratios than the equivalent for a warrior.
3. Most warrior usable 1-handed weapons are also usable by bards and rogues as offhand weapons.
4. With the "across the board" increases to the skill caps (defense, dodge, parry, weapon skills) that exist on SoD, once a knight receives a skill (yes, a bit later in level than a warrior...but not much), he is the exact same as a warrior in a few levels of tanking.
5. Found out just today that knights, despite the thread in the Tome of Knowledge, that knights get to keep their defensive skills while casting. (Question for consideration: What produces more agro in the few seconds that it takes a knight to cast a spell....the spell casted, or the 2-4 hits the warrior gets on the mob?)
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From this warrior's perspective, groups these days look for knights over warriors as tanks in this leveling field simply because the knights aren't "one trick ponies." Further, knights get the same melee skill set that a warrior does for the purposes of melee dmg.
The only things a warrior gets over a knight are:
1. Foelock. (The only real benefit of a warrior, but a single critical nuke, backstab, heal, etc. eliminates this bonus early in a battle.)
2. Earlier skill acquistion. (See above about actual tanking equalizing this benefit.)
3. At these levels, a few more hp every level than a knight.
4. Slightly more natural dmg. mitigation vs. a knight, which is counterbalanced by a knight's use of a shield over 2 weapons AND being able to keep agro at the same time.
5. /shield command, only usable if the warrior is A: Not doing his job and keeping agro or B: Not the MT in the group.
Knights get the following:
1. Meditate for mana regeneration = additional hate generation that a warrior doesn't get for stamina stances.
2. Unique abilities brought to a group. (Group crit'ing if undead, feign death pulling, group heals/procs, etc.)
3. Melee stances that, when compared to a warrior stance of the same type/theme, are generally better than the one the warrior gets.
4. Can pull with castable spells from mana pool. (Versus equipment change-outs for clickies or using bows...all generally made with rangers in mind...)
The SK vs. Paladin thread mentions that parsing needs to be done between the 3 classes again. I would like to include that this needs to be done for lower levels as well, including the ability of the classes to keep agro on the mob.
I believe that, pre-level 55, warriors are severaly outclassed by knights in groups.
Comparison of styles: (copied from another thread)
Warrior:
From wiki, non-basic warrior stances:
(4) Driving Attack 15 Increases generated hate, moderate stamina consumption
(5) Deftful Dance 15 [Small Race Only] Increase avoidance
(6) Steel Barrier 25 Decrease attack speed, increase mitigation, parry, riposte, and shield block
(7) Furious Assault 35 [Requires Two-Handed Weapon] Increase spell interrupt chance
(8) Living Shield 45 Decrease damage, increase hate, increase mitigation
(9) Unyielding Stance 55 Increase Mitigation
(10) Frenzied Attack 55 Increase attack speed, decrease avoidance, lose parry, riposte, dodge, and shield block
(11) Final Stand 60 Decrease damage taken to 1, die on exhaustion
(12) Vindicator's Stance 65 Increase Mitigation
Stance 5 is only usable by small race warriors. (And, with the change in SoD that WE and DE aren't considered small ....as it was on Live...this is one warrior stance that most warriors can never use.)
Stance 7 requires 2 handed weapons and is great for caster mobs. But, for the purpose of this argument, this stance can't be used. A tank does his/her job by keeping agro on a mob. Warrior agro generation is much lower with a 2-handed weapon versus duel wielding 1-handed weapons.
<Assumptions/Facts:> (Depending on your opinion)
1. Warriors gain agro pre-level 55 mostly via autoattacking, taunt, and Foelock in combination with stance changes only.
2. Duel wielding is very key in a grouping situation for a warrior to keep agro.
3. Very few buffers have the invigorate line or care to buff warriors with it. (And, no stamina regen items exist in SoD on equipment, unlike FT for knights.)
This leaves the following stances for use:
4: Moderate stamina usage, works very well for its purpose no matter the warrior's equipped weapons/shield at the time.
6: The first warrior "taking dmg" style. Drains stamina quickly, and slows attack speed. (Remember, attack speed = autoattack = agro generation for a warrior.) So, using a shield and this style simulataneously effectively ruins warrior agro generation.
8: The first good "tanking" style, no matter the warrior's equipped weapons/shield at the time. Drains stamina very quickly.
This leaves pre-55 warriors, who want to keep agro and tank, using a combination of style 4, 8, and basic 3 only...with very little way to regain stamina. Warriors do not get a "meditate" for their stamina bar (another knight plus), nor does "stamina regen +X" exist on equipment.
Warrior vs. Knight comparison:
SK pre-55 styles:
(4) Seething Fury 20 Increases aggro generated.
(5) Dismissive Strike 35 Increases Interruption chance and adds a dispel proc to melee.
(6) Loathing Guard 45 <10% mitigation>. Moderate to high stamina useage.
Comparison to Warrior:
1. Both style 4s are comparible and do the same thing.
2. SK style 5 is equivalent to Warrior style 7, but why do SK's get to use a shield while warriors must use a 2handed? Further, why does the SK style also have a disspell proc?
3. SK style 6 and warrior style 8 is the one place where Warrior finally pulls ahead, getting +hate and +5% mitigation.
Paladin pre-55 styles:
(4) Guarding Blade 20 Puts you into a focused stance, increasing both hate and parry. Very useful when tanking extremely hard foes or swarms of them.
(5) Cleansing Blades 35 Puts you into a focused state, increasing critical hits veruses all neutral or evil targets.
(6) Stoical Will 45 Grants the paladin immunity to fear, charm, and mesmerizing effects. Does not affect unresistable charm/mez.
Comparison to Warrior:
1. Paladin's style 4 is what a warrior should have as their style 5. (Hate + defensive abilities) Again, the paladin learned to cast spells, the warrior completely trained in melee combat. Further, this would give the warrior the ability to have a "hate only" style and a "slightly less hate than driving attack, but more defense" style for multiple mob pulls.
2. Paladin style 5...<Generally not used by paladins.>
3. Paladin style 6...<A warrior shouldn't have this, if we did...we would be berserkers and get it via "raging fury" or something equivalent.>
Therefore, my proposal to start making pre-55 warriors = to pre-55 knights in "taking dmg" and "agro generation," from a melee perspective, would be:
1. Replace Warrior style 5 with a paladin's style 4.
2. Replace Warrior style 7 with a sk's style 5.
3. Give Warriors an ability, like meditate, to up their stamina regeneration. <Not possible with client, I know.>
4. Implement "+ stamina regeneration" on equipment, to the level that FT is available for knights. <Again, probably not possible.>
5. Put "self only targeted stamina regen buff" on warrior equipment that is easily questable from warrior guildmasters. This buff would scale according to the warrior's level, but be "slightly less" than the level available from the Invigor line. (Also, I would mention that the Paladin class even gets the ability to cast Invigor...yes, at level 49... but they get it. Another bonus to paladins.)
---------------------------
Further reasons warriors are underpowered pre-55 vs. knights:
1. Most mob-dropped plate armor in SoD is made so that all 3 tanks can get a benefit from it. (This includes adding mana, +wisdom, and + intelligence.)
2. Several 1-handed weapons exist that are knight usable only, most with MUCH higher dmg/delay ratios than the equivalent for a warrior.
3. Most warrior usable 1-handed weapons are also usable by bards and rogues as offhand weapons.
4. With the "across the board" increases to the skill caps (defense, dodge, parry, weapon skills) that exist on SoD, once a knight receives a skill (yes, a bit later in level than a warrior...but not much), he is the exact same as a warrior in a few levels of tanking.
5. Found out just today that knights, despite the thread in the Tome of Knowledge, that knights get to keep their defensive skills while casting. (Question for consideration: What produces more agro in the few seconds that it takes a knight to cast a spell....the spell casted, or the 2-4 hits the warrior gets on the mob?)
---------------------------
From this warrior's perspective, groups these days look for knights over warriors as tanks in this leveling field simply because the knights aren't "one trick ponies." Further, knights get the same melee skill set that a warrior does for the purposes of melee dmg.
The only things a warrior gets over a knight are:
1. Foelock. (The only real benefit of a warrior, but a single critical nuke, backstab, heal, etc. eliminates this bonus early in a battle.)
2. Earlier skill acquistion. (See above about actual tanking equalizing this benefit.)
3. At these levels, a few more hp every level than a knight.
4. Slightly more natural dmg. mitigation vs. a knight, which is counterbalanced by a knight's use of a shield over 2 weapons AND being able to keep agro at the same time.
5. /shield command, only usable if the warrior is A: Not doing his job and keeping agro or B: Not the MT in the group.
Knights get the following:
1. Meditate for mana regeneration = additional hate generation that a warrior doesn't get for stamina stances.
2. Unique abilities brought to a group. (Group crit'ing if undead, feign death pulling, group heals/procs, etc.)
3. Melee stances that, when compared to a warrior stance of the same type/theme, are generally better than the one the warrior gets.
4. Can pull with castable spells from mana pool. (Versus equipment change-outs for clickies or using bows...all generally made with rangers in mind...)
The SK vs. Paladin thread mentions that parsing needs to be done between the 3 classes again. I would like to include that this needs to be done for lower levels as well, including the ability of the classes to keep agro on the mob.
