Turuj Problems...

Silosobi

Silosobi

Dalayan Pious Diety
So FWF has been raiding Turuj for a couple months now and in that time the zone has been greatly improved, but there are still a number of glaring problems. I know when we find problems and bugs or things that just seem badly balanced etc, some people say "oh ill let x dev know", but this is a place that I and anyone else can make such information more widely available.

I guess we just have horrible luck, but we are missing about 2 classes per raid on average, yet we are rotting 20-30% of the class tome drops, which is half the loot from turuj tribes. If nothing changes this problem is only going to get far worse as time goes on. Additionally, there are more tribes that drop class tome 4s than class tome 3s, so we are giving lots of people tome 4 loots when they have no clue when/if they will ever get the corresponding tome 3. (What if a player could turn in 2-3 rot class 3 or 4 tomes to receive a corresponding # tome of their choice? It would leave the overall distribution random, but we wouldn't feel so lame rotting them all the time and people with bad luck could get some loot)

Opus 1s still seem easier to farm from spires. Opus 2s are supposed to drop from trash as well, but we have seen none so far. This was recently chanced, so maybe its bad luck, but there are numerous mobs that have absolutely 0 loot, and I think this is contributing to the problem. E.G.: a Gru'niet Tunneler, a Gan Night Cryer, a Gru'niet Elementalist, a Kal'tan Disciple. I'm sure I missed a few, but those were the mobs I caught in yesterdays raid. If cash/vendor weapons/quirky NO DROPs/tomes dropped(same style items as all other trash in the zone), It would probably help with the overall lack of tomes (and just fun/lore/cash items which don't really help us but make a raid zone more fun and interesting).

Clear time and difficulty varies greatly by tribe, yet they all drop just 1 item and 1 tome. There is no motivation to do the longer tribes when we can get the same loot far easier elsewhere. Certain tribes could be bumped up to drop more items/tomes. Sharn'Ree is far and away the hardest boss we have encountered and the clear is downright rough, yet my understanding is it just drops 1item and 1 tome like everything else. Some of the risk/reward balance in this zone just seems way off.

Some turuj items are nice upgrade, yet others are sidegrades or worse. I'm just gonna point out some of the ones that come to mind...
Bracelet of Sacred Cremation: There are so many better procs our there that even with 3evo and a bit more mana, this doesnt compare to a number of lower tier priest and int wrists.
Yivslayer: The item looks okay, but between saitha 1hb, gloom sword, even NZ no hp sword, it just falls short. (Throw 10 goblin bane on it and everyone will want it for their bank =p)
Meteoric Girdle: This item is good for a 2HB mod, but other than that it really doesn't stack up against eyes or drakes belt which are far easier to attain.
Incense of the Enlightened Orc: this is basically a sidegrade and overall worse item from the custo range. (we also gave this item to Valdian because it had CSI8 and then got ninja changed to MC8. We gave him another turuj item the week prior for MC8)

I could go on and on, as these aren't necessarily the worst items, just stuff that came to mind. It seems like the mobs keep getting harder, but most of the loot is sidegrades. There are a few solid upgrades here and there, but overall it seems like we are just swapping gear around for focuses or 10 mana or a few stun resist, etc. I've been told over and over that turuj is all about tomes, but so far that just isn't working out. Between the rots class tomes and all the unusable 4s and the broken/bad trash opus drop rate(or just bad luck?! hopefully) it just doesn't feel very much like we are getting the quality upgrades through tomes or items as you would see when doing any other new & higher tier raid zone for your guild.

I realize a lot of what I've said will sound whiny and nit picky and etc, but I'm trying to be as specific as I can while communicating the problems I see myself and hear/see other guild members complain about. I do realize this is a huge amount of work for the devs and I appreciate all that you are doing. We might not enjoy it, but people aren't complaining about having to essentially beta test a lot of these fights, but when all the bugs are worked out and we beat something for a rot tome and sidegrade its hard to stay motivated.
 
Silosobi said:
I guess we just have horrible luck, but we are missing about 2 classes per raid on average, yet we are rotting 20-30% of the class tome drops, which is half the loot from turuj tribes. If nothing changes this problem is only going to get far worse as time goes on. Additionally, there are more tribes that drop class tome 4s than class tome 3s, so we are giving lots of people tome 4 loots when they have no clue when/if they will ever get the corresponding tome 3. (What if a player could turn in 2-3 rot class 3 or 4 tomes to receive a corresponding # tome of their choice? It would leave the overall distribution random, but we wouldn't feel so lame rotting them all the time and people with bad luck could get some loot)

Opus 1s still seem easier to farm from spires. Opus 2s are supposed to drop from trash as well, but we have seen none so far. This was recently chanced, so maybe its bad luck, but there are numerous mobs that have absolutely 0 loot, and I think this is contributing to the problem. E.G.: a Gru'niet Tunneler, a Gan Night Cryer, a Gru'niet Elementalist, a Kal'tan Disciple. I'm sure I missed a few, but those were the mobs I caught in yesterdays raid. If cash/vendor weapons/quirky NO DROPs/tomes dropped(same style items as all other trash in the zone), It would probably help with the overall lack of tomes (and just fun/lore/cash items which don't really help us but make a raid zone more fun and interesting).
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I agree on the tomes, I think the original system was a little short sighted in the fact you have stated which a pretty obvious problem. I really would like to see some kind of return system where you can take unwanted tomes and work towards a tome you DO want. Anyway, hopefully something like that will be implemented for the class tomes at some point. Until then hold onto them.

I think that there are a some mobs that can have an increase in their drop %, WHICH BY THE WAY, Is almost 2x higher then spires. I think you all have been a little unlucky perhaps, but then again I saw you get 3 tomes in under a hour. So the chance is surely there. I will say one thing. If a mob seems easy, its chance probably is not great. If it seems hard, probably a higher chance (Grey knights anyone?!).

I will repeat that I will bump up some of the %s because I think its warranted due to TR mob density being a decent amount different from Spires. But it IS already a good amount better I guarantee you of that, any evidence otherwise (which you actually have none of) is just you being unlucky.

*The shared loot tables are not meant to be clear upgrades from previous tiers in every case*

In terms of items, the shared loot tables have some nice items, then they have some not so nice items that yes. You can consider these as side grades. However outside of Jubor (which is honestly harder then it should be), these tribes are pretty easy and they still have potential to reward you with some nice things. Not always nice no, but that is the intention. I am not going to touch on every item situation you listed but I am okay with how things are for those items. And believe they have a place (Goblin bane might be nice someday!), although maybe not for a guild that has spent way longer in the previous raid zone then needed making sure they get every little thing they possibly could (and still goes).

One thing I will say is this. There are way too many dpsish type weapons and caster bracers. Which is why some of them seem so unappealing. But its just a saturated item slot, not much can be done about that unless you just totally change the item.

Apologies for the ninja change on the incense however, I had changed around how I wanted some of the focus effects to be acquired and it was an unfortunate victim.
 
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An exchange system would be great! I sure hope people have been looting rot tomes~

Farming zones until you 100% rot items before moving on to the next zone is something that SoD players have done since I have been around. It honestly doesn't make any sense to me, but some players think they "need" all the best in slot gear before moving on (I guess in this case they were "forced" to farm Spires before Tur'ruj was completed). I have no issues with items that fill gaps or are "side-grades" as long as there are cool items as well (it seems Tur'ruj has some of those: Shared Memories gloves for example).

I think we are just getting unlucky since the opus change, and if we keep farming, we will see the average smooth out eventually. I am definitely not against opus 1/2s dropping more often, though. This zone definitely seems like it is a tome farm (since the bosses always drop at least 1 [class] tome), so increasing the %s slightly doesn't seem like a bad idea.

I really think our data set is just too small (after the changes) to really make any real conclusions, but hopefully another month or so will give us what we need.
 
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Turuj is kind of an odd raid zone because you have a couple hard trash and a lot of little annoying trash. Obviously the little things should drop lots of tomes, but the number of trash that actually take effort to kill is very low compared to spires. I don't know the actual number, but it wouldn't surprise me if we kill less than half as many challenging trash mobs as we would with the same time spent in spires.

Everything else sounds pretty good, I had kind of figured the items weren't intended to be huge upgrades, and yes we spent way way too long in spires. When the tome drop rate gets better I think people will be happier, because gaining 1-2 crit on heal/nuke/meele, extra mitigation/hp/etc actually are pretty significant upgrades as long as people put in the time to exp.

I guess my only remining concern would be the risk vs reward on Jubor, Shar'nok, and Gru'niet(in its latest reincarnation).
 
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Btw in terms of the class tomes. Dog spirits were changed last patch to always drop class 3s and the leverer was a tome dropper but apparently he is not supposed to drop anything! To rebalance the class tomes Kaltan boss will now drop a class 3 instead.
 
I feel like if Jubor wasn't so ridiculous and we didn't rots so many class 3s, the drop rates would probably be in check. But the fact that we have seen like 6 bst and warrior class 3s has really killed the desire to do the mobs besides the overwhelming roadblock they provide.
 
Kazimir said:
I feel like if Jubor wasn't so ridiculous and we didn't rots so many class 3s, the drop rates would probably be in check. But the fact that we have seen like 6 bst and warrior class 3s has really killed the desire to do the mobs besides the overwhelming roadblock they provide.
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Jubor tribe is in need of some tuning I agree, this is something that will happen soon. Especially the last pull which makes me upset irl whenever I think about it. Also I am adding a new mob inside Tur'ruj that should be of interest if you have unwanted class tomes.
 
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Zaela said:
It has goblin bane. It doesn't show up on the item. Use identify once in a while.
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There's almost nothing that uses this functionality, but there's a way to put bane damage on items based on NPC model. I was going to use this in the (now scrapped) non-archery-class Fletching quested bow.

Having a bow with bane damage just for willowisps is fun in concept, but it ended up just feeling disappointing.

(oh, and this bane damage doesn't display on the item sadly... much like 1hb mods)
 
I will say that, I don't feel the Sacred Cremation bracer is a terrible item in and of itself. The fact that it is a dot proc, however, is its downfall. If it were a dd, I think it'd be a reasonable bracer.
 
The problem with opii in Turruj seems to be that they only seem to drop from Tarloc and Sharnok, is it? I suspect Solo knows for sure but I don't believe we've ever looted a single opus from a trash mob of any other tribe.

Itemization seems alright, I suppose the main problem here is simply volume. It seems like the total amount of items is really low compared to spires. I mean, there's 8 bosses we've done, 3 of which share the same table and drop lower-tier loot, leaving 5 bosses that drop apparently 4 items each. Again, just from what we've killed, there's three upgrades for me in the entire zone, partially due to priest overlap from cmal 4.3, i guess. That leaves tomes...

however, I loved seeing an upgrade to Djar gloves. Hoping to see the same for stuff like Taesh ear or Brittle stone.
 
cian2 said:
however, I loved seeing an upgrade to Djar gloves. Hoping to see the same for stuff like Taesh ear or Brittle stone.
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Hah, I really like this idea. You don't really have to make characters any stronger, but people love to free up a bag slot and have the convenience of not swapping these must-have clickies any more.'

I also agree with the overall lack of items and was thinking even before your post - what if Jubor gained its own loot table. There is a discussion about this tribe on our guild forums and it seems like even if the hellish pulls became easier so we didn't wipe, the entire tribe would still take about an hour to clear just because of the volume of mobs, their hp, etc. I don't think we will spend an hour+ to clear a tribe, when we can clear the first two in 60-80min and get double the loot.

The entire tribe could just get easier/shorter to be more in line with the others that share its loot table, but adding one more table of item diversity to the zone would be really helpful in a number of ways(even if we don't get huge upgrades).
 
Remaining problems:

(1) Tome drop rate has improved, I don't know exactly where the devs want it to be, but it seems low to me considering the reward per time input of previous raid zones and considering that a lot of the loot is just sidegrades or focus swaps from spires (there are some good solid upgrades in the mix too). Anyway, the following mobs still have no loot at all, and if a tome chance were added to them as well as the usual venfor trash/fun items, it would improve the zone's overall risk/reward:
a Gru'niet Tunneler
a Gru'niet Miner
a Gan Night Cryer
a Gru'niet Elementalist
a Kal'tan Disciple
a darksun mutant


(2)We've started running into the problem of finding opus 2s where nobody has the opus 1. Hopefully its bad luck but 90% of our trash opus on the last few raids were 2s. Also in general I'm sure we will have the same problem as in spires where certain tomes just don't drop because its such a big loot table and its so random. Maybe/hopefully Rujik will address this.


(3)The pillars fight is just bad. We are supposed to run by and nuke/ranged attack inbetween water elemental waves, but the mobs have hp such that doing this would take 30+ minutes. Also there are living lava tubes with hit boxed as big as the entire path we are supposed to be running through that can backstun and kill casters/healers.
 
Oh one other thing that I was thinking about. As far as the reward per time input not being as good in turuj as compared to other zones. Every other raid zone in the game (as far as i know) has the chance to drop bonus loot. When you get 3 loot instead of 2, or 2 loot instead of 1, its a pretty significant bonus. Over the duration a guild spends farming a zone, these bonus loots can be significant in accelerating how quickly people gear up from a new zone. We have never once seen bonus loot from a turuj mob. A bonus tome chance or item chance (or maybe smaller chance at either) could be a way to chance things up, not to mention its a lot of fun when you get a bonus loot. Everyone is happy and it makes the raid grind seem a bit less mundane!

I'm not saying I think all these ideas I'm posting are needed to make turuj okay, just that my and it seems the general consensus among players is that its still a tad lacking and these are ideas/options to change things up.
 
With another month of farming this zone past, I thought I'd make another post highlighting the problems I see or hear from others.

The tome drop rate is certainly better than spires. The overall balance between tome 1s and 2s for both normal and class tomes seems fairly good. I still feel like the zone is a bit lacking in overall risk vs reward (certain tribes being far worse than others). I think this is potentially the result of issues that are bugs or maybe maybe oversights in a new loot table system:
(1)As I said in another post, all the raid content through the rest of the game can drop bonus loot. While unpredictable, bonus loot contributes significantly to the overall item rewards from a zone, as well as being something fun/exciting when it happens. It could be a bonus item or giving named/chest mobs high tome drop rates (for the trash tomes, the zone provides plenty of class tomes), or maybe unique bonus-loot-only drops since zone has smaller loot tables than most. Any of these, or something new could make the zone seem more rewarding.
(2)Many mobs still to this day have no loot table, and some of the harder trash with loot has yet to drop opi (this could just be bad luck). Ignoring a select few drops, and the final 2 tribes' loot, opuses are some of the bigger upgrades from the zone. If loot tables were added to the following mobs it would certainly help the overall situation:
a Gru'niet Tunneler
a Gru'niet Miner
a Gan Night Cryer
a Gru'niet Elementalist
a Kal'tan Disciple
a darksun mutant

In the last 3-4 weeks of raiding, we have gotten ~8 opus of dexterity 1/2s, out of a total of ~15 non-class tomes. Many of the most powerful and essential tomes we have seen 0-1 copies of ever, yet the stat and resist tomes we see over and over. There is probably nothing going wrong here, just bad luck, but I think it highlights a flaw in mechanics. With a large loot table dropping rarely off a lot of raid trash, you are likely to see some drops over and over, while rarely or never seeing others. I do see some benefit in a random system - otherwise nobody would do the stat/resist opuses, but with it being entirely random, it is easy to lack some very powerful tomes simply due to luck.

Maybe this situation is already understood and there are plans to deal with it (or intentionally not deal with it), I just thought I'd but it out there since this is relatively new content. Its extremely frustrating to farm out a zone for months and still not have the items you want most from it, and not even have a clue if you will ever see those items (not to mention there are other raiders wanting the same things)

Lutak Gan, the boss that spawns when you beat all the Gan trash is a unique and fun raid boss. I really enjoy doing the fight. He does however have a tendency to crash the zone ~30% of the time we attempt him. We have not noticed anything that consistently causes this, but being a triggered spawn he disappears upon zone crash, and since few GMs know the zone well, it can be hard to get him respawned. Ideally the crashing would be prevented, but if there is a simple way to make him not despawn on zone-crash that would be very helpful too!

With all that said, Turuj is a very cool zone. I am continually impressed by the scale and quality MMO SoD staff has created with the resources available. I know I complain a lot, but in the end it's because I enjoy the game and hope to help make it better!
 
My suggestion to remedy the bonus loot AND tome situation:

Make the bonus loot be 'A Glowing Stone of Elial', and have a NPC somewhere that will trade those stones for ANY opus 1/2. They should be rare enough that the majority of tomes are still random, but something so that you can patch in the holes for people who have bad luck with the random drops.
 
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