The CH change - opinions etc

zodium

zodium

Dalayan Elder
As you know, CH was recently upped from 400 to 550 mana and high-end heals like Ethereal Light and Blissful Light had their mana costs considerably reduced (410 to 325 for Ethereal, for instance). This was apparently done in an effort to stop CH from being the only spell used because it was the cheapest at the high level game.

Post your opinion about said change here IF YOU ARE A HIGH LEVEL PLAYER AND HAVE PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH IT.

For me, this was essentially just a 33% nerf of my cleric's class. I still use CH at exactly the same times I use it before (whenever I have ten seconds to cast or when I'm healing a tank, etc) and I still use Blissful Light at exactly the same times before (when I don't have ten seconds to cast or when I'm not healing a tank). So, obviously, the change failed in its intention and should be changed back.

I agree though, that it's retarded that CH is the cheapest heal in the end-game. I'd say keep quicker heals where they are now, maybe up them a bit, and put CH at 450 or so.

Either that or change it back altogether.
 
I don't like it, cheal is cheap because it takes *10* seconds to cast... I'd say lower the casting time if its suposed to remain like this. Or better yet, change it back.
 
Complete Healing is a problem that was made during the game degsign and there is no easy way, nor way in general, to fix it without drastically altering playability.

You would have to go back and completely expand and reballance player vs mob Hp, mana, attack, and defense at a much greater scale because as the game is made now there is no room between a 7500hp 400 mana complete heal and a 1500-2000hp 400 mana Divine Light that casts in half the time. If you understand my point.

You can't raise the cast time on CH because that would make raiding impossible for those who cant put 10 clerics on a chain, not to mention with the current hp/dmg system the tank probably wouldnt survive the extra time to even get the first CH off much less each successive one.

You obviously can't reduce the cast time.

You can't increase the hp healed by other heal spells because then that would make them a better choice than CH in many situations and unballance the game even further.

The fact the hp spread between a L1, a L65 raid virgin, and a fully geared up buffed L65 Ogre warrior with the current material on this server is roughly (50 - 5500 - 7000) there just isnt any way tinkering with spells alone is going to be a good way of reforming healing.

And I feel strongly that changing around the way the game is scaled so it matches LIVE numbers, then going back and changing healing with the new room made, is a epic mistake ready to happen. The only thing that can really be done is change CH back the way it was and deal with the inner flaws of the game that have been here since day 1.


I am finished blabbering....
 
CH is necessary because it makes max HP matter. If not for CH, mitigation and avoidance would be king, making monks the best tanks.
 
I agree with Melwin. Ch change will not alter the way clerics use spells. They will still CH for the highest efficiency, so it's only a nerf to thier manapool. If you want to give clerics more healing options, un-nerf celestial to be the same as live, and it will be used much more often in small groups. Etheral's purpose isn't to substitute for CH/Celestial in groups, but to save a poor enc (like me) who aggros; decreasing its mana is nice, but it will not take the place of CH ever if the tank has decent hp (Telenara's logs prove this point).


The CH change basically creates 20% more downtime and much shorter boss-fight durations (since lower clerics will only have 5-6 heals). CH nerf is a drastic imbalance in the way the core high level game is setup. Change it, and you will have to alter most high end encounters unless you want the required number of clerics for most high-end fights to be 7+ (which it almost is now).

Clerics are the last class I would want to upset right now, as they are leaving in droves. For some who I've spoken to, this change is the last straw. They don't want to log in with such a nerf to thier central spell. Is it overpowered? Yeah. But it is a core, game-dependant spell. Nerf it, and the repercussions are far reaching. Less ppl will play clerics, long fights will require 25% more clerics, exp will be slower because of longer downtime, existing clerics will quit, and so on.
 
Yvin: No offense, but you always seem to have spoken to "some" to support your point. If these clerics think it's the last straw, I'd like to hear from them.
 
The place the changes have the most effects is in groups, not in raid situations. I lost around 15-20% mana per mob in the few goups I've been in since the change, as opposed to the 5-10% that I might lose with CHeal.

I must say that healing with the other heals makes for a slightly more enjoyable experience, but due to the mana costs being much heavier this way, I, personally, would prefer to go back to the way it originally was. The slight increase in enjoyment does not make up for the amount of extra time one has to spend medding, and it seriously takes away from the cleric's ability to heal if a pull goes wrong, if another mob adds, if the enemy was stronger than expected, etc.

I sympathise with Yvin, in that it does create a bit of an imbalance, and there have been more deaths in my group as a result of the lower average mana level or the inability to throw off eth lights fast enough to keep up with damage. As to whether or not clerics will quit over it, well, that depends on their own mentality. Clerics have never been fun, so it's not going to be the breaking point where all the clerics throw up their hands and leave, but with the way that mobs and DPS have been re-balanced recently, it does detract from a cleric's ability to keep up with mob DPS, even against Deepfiends. How it'll work out in raids, I don't know. I haven't raided with the changes yet.

The only way the model would work is if Eth Light was cheaper (but it would need to be unreasonably cheap) and on top of that, Elixir would have to have its refresh time cut down a lot. If it's a choice between the way it is now, though, and the way it was, my choice would be to change it back.
 
Wiz said:
Yvin: No offense, but you always seem to have spoken to "some" to support your point. If these clerics think it's the last straw, I'd like to hear from them.
Click to expand...

He mentioned one, Telenara. I personally have a 2nd cleric that I was leveling that I stopped. With the current changes, it would be more efficient to level up a shaman. Can4 + close wounds and torpor is going to be more efficient than the current changes on a regular xp group.

CH at 550 mana is still more efficient than EL on a 4k+ hp tank, just more mana which means more downtime.
 
Well, first of all I admire the attempt to change CH, probably the most ridiculous spell ever put in a MMO. Its very unbalancing, making all other heals effectively worthles. I dont know what genius decided to give it to lvl 34 clerics in the first place originally, but whatever may he rot in hell. Its worst problem is that its good on some tanks, really good on others, and completely overpowered on some.

So how do you go about fixing CH? Well, to fix it, you almost would have to remove it. Otherwise either its crap for most people, but good for ubertanks like Coltaine, or its fine for everyone else but totally out of bounds for Coltaine. If you remove it, then you need to change quite a bit about the classes. Warriors would have to be made king of mitigation, SKs and paladins second. Monks would have to be changed, raid mobs would have to be changed, etc. I simply dont think its worth doing that unless you started with that upfront when you first started making WR.

One possible fix would be to go at it halfway. Like cap it at 4500-5000 healing or something, and then change other classes around. That way it would still be very good for almost all groups, wouldnt be overpowered for uber tanks. Even in this case though, would have to change classes around.


I guess bottom line is that for any raid, you need 3 clerics but can get by with either 1 or 0 of any other class. Thats the main endall problem with EQ. So with everyone based around CH, not sure its worth the time or trouble to change it at this point. The change that was put in really doesnt fix the fundamental problem, its just a nerf on clerics with no other compensation, since as people have pointed out above, CH is still better than the other heals, and the only one you can use on a raid.
 
I know that you are changing this Wiz, but im giving you little head-up (i meant by looking from every single class's view, looking from necro's view), mana change (increase) to cleric's spell hurts necro a bit, they want more mana pump that way.

I will do anything other than mana pump!
 
My idea : change CH back to 400 mana, but keep other heals at lower mana cost, so we still have a choise of healing spells, that CH shouldn't cost more than 400 mana is because it takes 10 secs to cast it, so timeing CH is essential (spelling).
So lower CH back to 400 mana, but keep the other post 50 spells at lower cost so we have a choise of spells
 
Eh. If I just changed everything back, it'd be nothing but a buff to clerics that they really didn't need. :p
 
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I'm a late poster but, I have been speaking with people about this and agree with mel..who beat me to this. The lowering of heals for other class's namely shamans and druids have gone over very nicely, with the exception of the druid mini CH. Ch still is used in same situations it just makes sustainable CHage go out the door. Chains must be increased extremely to get the same effect, whilst the daily grouping cleric runs oom waaay too fast. Druid mini CH change is also effected doubly over.
 
just change it back and make an aa for raiding called "empathy" or something. allow it to heal Xhp per manna to whoever is targeted by the cleric with multiple clerics being able to target the same person. add some cool/odd cool effects if too much damage is done to their target by clerics passing out or losing hp proportinate to the tanks or even getting the drunk-vision. the beauty of an emulated server is you can do different shit, it dosent have to be within the confines of everquest!! creativity will always be a lot more interesting then just blankly adding/subtracting manna values for spells

oh and give clerics a 25% slow component to their "doom" spell kthx! ^_^
 
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