Role Definition

[calaran]

I've seen a lot of questions regarding various classes and their roles from lowbie all the way up to and including the raid-end game. This has probably been requested before, but I haven't seen it in my time here at least.

Would it be unrealistic or a bad idea to have an official thread stating the vision the staff has for the roles of each class? If we knew what each class will eventually be like as per your vision, maybe it will mitigate outcries like "I created my Mage just so I could pet-tank/heal and do nothing else" when the pet heals get nerfed... I mean, people will still complain, but it might give starting characters a better idea what to expect. I'm thinking something like:


Clerics

Low Game (1-35) - Primary Healer, hp/ac buffer, somewhat capable of low melee damage and minor ability to tank very early on (1-20) due to plate armour which dwindles away as you reach the 30's.
Mid Game (36-55) - Primary Healer, hp/ac buffer. That is all. You may assist with some undead nukes, lulls, etc but primarily you will be healing and buffing the tank.
Late Game (56-65) - Primary Healer, hp/ac buffer. That is all. See a pattern?
Raid Game - Primary Healer, hp/ac buffer. That is all.


I don't know if that's accurate at all, but I'm thinking something like this. This way classes like Shaman, Necros, etc will know where they stand in the raid game. Coming from a particular commercial game and deciding to play here instead, I know Necros in that other game were mana batteries and that's all, on raids. They gave their mana to the more important classes because the DPS they could do for the mana was much less efficient than having Clerics and Wizards that couldn't run outta mana. Here, I think I've heard Necros are more of a DPS class (DoTs) for raids, but I'd be curious if that's what the staff intends going forward... I've seen multiple threads from multiple classes requesting a definition of their role (usually in the raid game), so it's clear that SOME people don't know what they're supposed to be doing.

Maybe this wouldn't be a useful topic and not worth the time it would take to type up, but I just thought it was worth asking... If we (as players) know what each class will do from start to finish, once you guys get them all working how you want them to, it will better equip us to choose a class that will be satisfying in the long run.

 

[Birlic]

This would be a good addition to the classes guide on the SoD wikipedia. Anyone can add it, so if you have the time, I'm sure people new to the game would be grateful

 

[calaran]

Two problems with that...

First of all, I wanted the official word from the staff as to what their vision is for the roles of the classes, not what they currently are from a player's perspective...

AND

I've only played two classes above 10, and those only up to 19 thus far... I'd be of very little use in filling in the information.


I agree that it may be a nice addition to the wiki, to have a glimpse into what the role for each of the classes currently is, but that wasn't really what I was going for. I may create a page with LOTS of blanks in it for people to fill in regarding what the roles are like now, but I was going more for a vision-statement from the staff regarding where they WANT the classes to fall on the spectrum... like, if EVERYTHING were balanced perfectly in their eyes, would Enchanters be just AMAZING crowd control, able to handle just about any situation (10+ adds, repops, etc) or would they be somewhat crowd-controlly with REALLY cool haste/rune buffs? I know so little about the raid game, it isn't even funny, so I'm not sure really if those roles even exist... hence my call to the staff for what they wanted to see eventually.

 

[Manluas]

Two problems with that...

First of all, I wanted the official word from the staff as to what their vision is for the roles of the classes, not what they currently are from a player's perspective...

AND

I've only played two classes above 10, and those only up to 19 thus far... I'd be of very little use in filling in the information.


I agree that it may be a nice addition to the wiki, to have a glimpse into what the role for each of the classes currently is, but that wasn't really what I was going for. I may create a page with LOTS of blanks in it for people to fill in regarding what the roles are like now, but I was going more for a vision-statement from the staff regarding where they WANT the classes to fall on the spectrum... like, if EVERYTHING were balanced perfectly in their eyes, would Enchanters be just AMAZING crowd control, able to handle just about any situation (10+ adds, repops, etc) or would they be somewhat crowd-controlly with REALLY cool haste/rune buffs? I know so little about the raid game, it isn't even funny, so I'm not sure really if those roles even exist... hence my call to the staff for what they wanted to see eventually.

This would require a lot of work since there is
a) the vision of the staff
b) what the players make out of any class.

Necromancer for example is a class with an amazing variety if you look up their spell list.
They can Dot, throw in some minor nukes, add further Pet DPS have the option to be minor CC or great pullers (Mezz combined with FD opens some nice opportunities) and can even add minor tank-patch on raids (very minor though).

The idea itself is good but I think it will take a very long time for each class to add even a rough idea of what they are like.

 

[Birlic]

It is the player's role to discover the abilities and role of each class. I don't think the devs should have much input in such a guide. Especially that they're gods who know the code
Discovering the magic of Dalaya is a quest in itself. Winning an encounter for the first time in Dalaya's history, by using a certain class' abilities in an original way, can provide satisfaction. Provided you're willing to put that much time in playing SoD...

If you wish to spare the time to start off such a guide, I'm sure you'll be able to add to it in time. If you're simply looking for information, these class descriptions might help. SoD and EQ are not too far apart, class-wise.

 

[calaran]

I think everyone is missing what I'm requesting. In the context of this conversation, I don't give a liquid spurt of feces what the players think. Obviously I DO value what the other players think, and enjoy reading the higher-levels' posts about different things, but quite simply, I'm only focusing on the first thing you mentioned which is the staff's vision.

If it's a bad idea, it's a bad idea. I just thought even something so general as:

Raid-End Game:

Necromancer - DPS / puller
Enchanter - CC / haster
Cleric - Main Healer / hp-ac buffer
Druid - Patch Healer / minor dps
Wizard - DPS / Evac-saviour
Shaman - Slower / patch healer
Rogue - DPS / scouting
Ranger - DPS / patch healer
Paladin - Tank / patch healer
Shadowknight - Tank / minor DPS
Warrior - Tank
Monk - Puller / DPS
Mage - DPS
Bard - Resists / Haste


If we had a list such as that (hopefully more detailed, and I'm sure I'm 99% wrong on most of it), officially from the staff, then when Enchanters were having a change proposed that dropped their CC utility in favor of something else, there would be reason to complain. But if suddenly Enchanters lost some nukes in favor of some stronger CC, they would be able to look to the list and say "Well, they told me this was to be my role"... or whatever. Mages lose some pet heal stuff, since they're not listed as pet off-tanking as one of their main rolls, maybe they would get some stronger nukes, and could be directed to this list to understand that their role at whatever point in their career is more in-line with DPS than pet-tanking.

I wasn't asking for a 10-page novel on each class, detailing EVERYTHING they should be able to do. I was asking for the top 1-2 roles each class is supposed to be aimed for in the end game (or, my preference would be to know what all they're supposed to do at each of the 3-4 stages). I was sorta wanting it broken up into the stages, because 4-35, maybe even 55, perhaps mages SHOULD be able to pet tank somewhat efficiently, but in the end game and raid-end game, that should not be the case... so changes to the classes could be planned based upon what their roles should be during those time frames.

I'm guessing the staff would rather not nail everything down and give players something else to base their gripes upon (example below), but I just thought it might be nice.

Recently Enchanters have had a proposed change that would remove Subtle Mez (reduces aggro from mezzes) and give them a more powerful rune. The numbers for the rune haven't been released but some Enchanters are up in arms about it. The problem that COULD stem from a list like this is that some players would point at the Enchanter's primary role as CC and claim that the loss of Subtle Mez is negatively impacting their main role in the end game. Others would claim that Subtle Mez is uneeded, and with the more powerful rune, they could rune themselves for whenever they DO get the attention of a mob. Both spells assist, in one way or another, the CC aspect of the Enchanter, but the list could definitely add fuel to the "you're nerfing my only role" argument. So, I can see why staff may not want to do the list; I just think it would be a nice list to have going forward...

I created a Necro when I thought twitch was still in the game, and that was a large reason I created the Necro... If I had known twitch wasn't in, I'd probably have done another class... now, I'm glad I did create a Necro as they seem really interesting and fun to play, but if I had seen a list that said Necros are meant to do DPS and SOMETIMES pull, I probably would have played something else and wouldn't have gotten the surprise I did. No biggie.

If it doesn't happen, that's fine... was just a thought.

 

[calaran]

Okay... I give up.

I'm not looking for "Necros hit for 498 hps/tick DoT in the end game and have a 96% rez, and the ability to FD that works most of the time, yadda yadda yadda..."

I didn't want code.
I didn't want numbers.
I didn't want specifics.
I was just asking for general direction of classes split based upon level. Players can give general info about what classes ARE but can't give directional input as to where they are GOING.

Necros are mana batteries on Live. Not on here. Bards are based upon the manual dexterity of the person playing them on Live (well, before /melody or whatever) and if they're good CAN be decent CC + Reists + Regen + some other fun stuff... Here, they seem to be resists + maybe some overhaste/nuke % increase... and that's about it.

That's all I was thinking. If Necros, for instance, were EXACTLY how Wiz wants them to be in the end game, what would they do? I think it's pretty clear he doesn't want them to be single-function (twitch) or bot'able, but what SHOULD they do? Just DPS? Okay, that's fine... DoT DPS is fine, but I just was thinking a general label for what they would be doing in a Wiz-perfect world would be nice.

 

[Eleonor]

Raid-End Game:

Necromancer - DPS / (puller)
(CR the raid...)
Enchanter - CC / haster
(JB , Illusion buff /boon/giant )
Cleric - Main Healer / hp-ac buffer
(rezz)
Druid - Patch Healer / minor dps
(buffer )

Wizard - DPS / Evac-saviour
(MASS TL to plan/bind )

Shaman - Slower / patch healer
( buff??? debuff???)

Rogue - DPS / scouting
( COH inviter )
Ranger - DPS / patch healer
(Track target)

Paladin - Tank / patch healer

Shadowknight - Tank / minor DPS
(what the fuc... hell Shadowknight re great puller.........)

Warrior - Tank
Monk - Puller / DPS

Mage - DPS
(CoH & relic DS / MASS ROD)

Bard - Resists / Haste
(mana regen )

 

[zodium]

Okay... I give up.

I'm not looking for "Necros hit for 498 hps/tick DoT in the end game and have a 96% rez, and the ability to FD that works most of the time, yadda yadda yadda..."

I didn't want code.
I didn't want numbers.
I didn't want specifics.
I was just asking for general direction of classes split based upon level. Players can give general info about what classes ARE but can't give directional input as to where they are GOING.

Necros are mana batteries on Live. Not on here. Bards are based upon the manual dexterity of the person playing them on Live (well, before /melody or whatever) and if they're good CAN be decent CC + Reists + Regen + some other fun stuff... Here, they seem to be resists + maybe some overhaste/nuke % increase... and that's about it.

That's all I was thinking. If Necros, for instance, were EXACTLY how Wiz wants them to be in the end game, what would they do? I think it's pretty clear he doesn't want them to be single-function (twitch) or bot'able, but what SHOULD they do? Just DPS? Okay, that's fine... DoT DPS is fine, but I just was thinking a general label for what they would be doing in a Wiz-perfect world would be nice.

Sorry. We just don't want to give a public "definition" of what a class should be, because for one it means players are going to refer to it all the time even if we change it, and two because we're likely to miss something.

 

[calaran]

Well, yeah, I had mentioned that people holding you to it was the likely reason. The only reason for my "I give up" post was because everyone was responding by bringing up other things, rather than just getting, as I (we) have now, a "We don't want to" from the staff... which is honestly halfway what I expected, and is no problem... Just wanted SOME sort of answer from the staff, heh. Thanks Zod

 

[zodium]

A much more interesting idea is a compilation of what a class can do, but we'd need knowledgeable people to post that themselves, honestly.

 

[Nuncio]

A much more interesting idea is a compilation of what a class can do, but we'd need knowledgeable people to post that themselves, honestly.

That's a good idea.
A new thread (or this one, whatever) where peopel post what they are capable of with their class(es). It's then looked through to remove erroneous material, adn compiled in another thread.
Start it up Calaran.]
Should possibly be split into pre-end game (group) and end-game (raid) sections.

 

[calaran]

I would GLADLY start it, but I'm really not the right person. Leveling to 20 in two classes does not an expert make I will gladly start it up once both are 65 + 300 AA's but until then...

 

[Onos Sideboard]

I would GLADLY start it, but I'm really not the right person. Leveling to 20 in two classes does not an expert make I will gladly start it up once both are 65 + 300 AA's but until then...

Until then level up and then worry about the raid-end game?