Rogues need help.

D

Draeos

Dalayan Elder
Rogues are the only pure dps in the game with no utility, the utility we do have is just a gimmick, and it will pretty much always be a gimmick, never in the history of anything but ED maps has someone said but a rogue would make that much easier and that is because you are only required to bring one. That is our utility and its potential as it is in a nut shell you can force
them to bring a rogue for these very specific things you never encounter in day to day play or you never need a rogue and that slot can pretty much always be filled by another class and yield better results.

Even when just comparing a rogue to a similar tier any other melee class, they have no slot to fill what so ever that any other melee dps of similar tier wouldn't fill better, They are pure dps and thats it, yet rangers who I've seen on multiple(how bout 100s) of times tank absurd things for a melee dps, or save the raid with a pro heal, or you have them in a xp group and you've got the best track in the game along with a great ac debuff(pet), Then theres monks who get mend, some real nifty stances, alot of there dps is unresistable dd's, they get to fd and skip entire mechanic's in fights, and there still really good tanks. I'm going to stop comparing there because i think you get where im going with this.

Rogues either need a niche of somesort (Few idea's listed) or they need to bleed dps alot harder than they currently do through all tiers, a rogue should almost always come in at the top of melee dps when compared to a similar tier melee dps class. Without question because all you ever do is dps things there is never anything else a rogue is doing but dpsing things.

I had a few idea's for helping rogues out that aren't just cranking there numbers up.

- A stance like monks and warriors get that is 100% maintainable that would boost a rogues accuracy considerably while making the rogue more vulnerable to physical attacks.

- I like the idea of rogues being non stop dpsing machines and I really hate how alot/most high end encounters involve alot of moving some stances or sta triggered ability like warriors have that would aim towards this would be a good step. A stance that would make
the rogue invul to spell damage for a set amount of time for a set amount of sta would allow for rogues to be much much more useful.

- Thought about but would probably be to imbalanced but a stance similar to the one described but would pulse out from the rogue and negate damage to his fellows around him short range long cooldown. But yeah idk about that one.

- Rogues are masters of melee, Why did you give monks a stance to make constructs critable but left rogues high and dry, the masters of melee?!?!
The only thing in the game a rogue shouldn't be able to crit on is undead without a pal. If a monk can find the weak points in a construct a rogue can make them.

- Revamp poison making a little bit, add some higher end stuff to increase utility, a better lifetap proc, a spell damage increase proc, a tiny martyrs proc, something even as generic as a decent slow proc? Nothing to make enc/shm/bst run for there money but like a 25-30% slow proc with a positive or 0 adjust? A small malo that stacks with normal malo? Alot more could be done here with poison to make the class alot more fun to have around and useful. You could get really creative with this and just make it small gains but something fun worth having around. Don't make it mandatory however just fun small gains.

- I also kinda feel as rogues are the masters of melee how is it they don't have the expertise to tell what bodytype a monster has. We stuided and trained hard for years to be the masters of melee im sure we are intimately familiar with many bodytypes. Change lethal strike? Who uses this?

- A stance that bypasses AC completey, Drain similar to stance 6.

- Or if you changed lethal strike to an ability to tell body types, You could then change the hastened lethality to every rank grants you an inate ability to bypass % of ac on a monster. This would help rogues alot this alone would solve alot of the huge gap.

- Ability to never miss a backstab? Our DPS is always all over the place, and missing 1 backstab even if it was for only your minimum amount possible hurts a ton to our sustained dps, casters do not have to worry about spells getting resisted anymore they know exactly how much its going to hit for every time now, rogues are still the biggest RNG class in the game and it seldom favors the rogue.

Now i know some of that is wishful thinking, but i feel like there's some good points and ideas, all i know for sure is rogues need some help, well alot of help.

*Edit and whats up with tumblers grace i never see myself dodge any spells anymore that stopped around t5 and pops up once or twice.
 
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I really wanted Zaela or somebody to remake rogues with stances like warriors. I have a laundry list of complaints about the class a whole and more rogue regret than I could ever put into a comprehensible post.

You hit most of the issues.

The class has no utility, were completely lacking outside of opening a treasure map box. Even at lower tiers our damage difference was never anything substantial and I haven't played in a very long time but the last time I recalled at the highest ends rogues were kind of the losers due to fights requiring movement and subsequently wrecking any chance of good damage output.

Our stances are pitiful, we have two of decent usage (/s 6 and whatever the 100% dodge stance is) while every other one is almost completely useless. Excepting the aggro one maybe and very early on you may use the spell dodge.

We have no real duo potential, our class sucks ass at hitting anything from the front, tanking anything, or maintaining aggro on anything more than a single mob.

Our tomes are pretty droll. Multiple backstab sounds cool but its not enough to justify our classes lack of utility through raw damage difference. The spectre thing is cool but I've only seen its usefulness in very specific 6 man scenarios where the rogue was basically the last one to die around 1%. The ability dodge tome is pretty forgettable.

Over all I would really just like to see the stance rework similar to what warriors got, the class is very very boring. I mash backstab and I mash evade. I miss a backstab or two in a row and feel very inadequate. I have to chase after a mob and due to how backstab works I will never actually land an attack on it. I have to move infront or to the side of a mob? fuck. Run away from something? fuck.

I should probably make a better post than this or make some suggestions but if I could get one thing as a stance I'd like a way to attack from range. Something like deadly throw from wow where I have the ability to do burst damage from range when the fights require me to run or move making backstabbing and autoattacks unfeasible. Also someformofaoedamagemaybe. I overall just feel like many of the class issues could be dealt with through the stance system such as warriors. Please god don't make me click that trap box. ILU.
 
Also assassinate and its brother aa lethal strike are completely useless outside of farming some low end mobs for free money. I would love to see it changed to something actually useful along with its cooldown aa. Poisons as a whole are useless except maybe the -armor one and in some weird scenarios the stun one. Buffing the numbers on some poisons could at least allow for some utility but then again you have to sacrifice a buffslot for the damn things. I thought at some point there was talk about making them ammo procs but apparently that never went anywhere. I can agree somewhat or like a lot of things draeos suggested or mentioned.


Also while generic and unoriginal having the ability to shadowstep behind or onto a mob as a gap closer would be cool as shit although its usefulness might be very limited. but it would be cool as fuck and thats what matters.
 
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Also one time thinkmeats told me traps would be really cool and useful and he had plans to make them part of some form of creative pulling. What a shattered dream he left me with.
 
Otcho said:
Also one time thinkmeats told me traps would be really cool and useful and he had plans to make them part of some form of creative pulling. What a shattered dream he left me with.
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They tried this.

It was horrible.

EDIT:

Or atleast a form of it... (spires / tur'uj traps)
 
Apros said:
They tried this.

It was horrible.

EDIT:

Or atleast a form of it... (spires / tur'uj traps)
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I'm not talking about traps that spawn mobs, I am talking about rogues playing traps that knocked back/mezzed/snared things. I'm pretty sure that was the whole idea behind the vah rogue trap but it went nowhere.
 
Let me preface this with the fact that I enjoy playing a rogue and will continue to play rogue because other classes have stabber envy. That being said:

The problem with rogues is that they have these two issues that really both can't work together.

1. Just terrible at tanking to the point that when duo-ing, I often just have the healer tank.
2. DPS is only arguably better than other on tier classes (if even that) and lack any utility to make up for it.

Conceptually, the one should exist if the other doesn't. We don't have either. So from an exp stand point, I will lose to a monk at every turn. They can farm/exp on their own to great effect. Either they or an SK are required for a ton of content, especially that which isn't way under tier. They have way more survivability in a fight. Their FD gives them a nearly sure bet of saving a group if they have a Rez Urn on them (Rogues get one an hour assuming things don't see through hide/sneak, which most bosses do).

Now, we can do a class to class comparison and say "It's not fair, that class has this one thing and we don't," and that's a nice demonstration of the problem. But I think it is better to just say, look, rogues were, at least at the time I rolled Banjimen, intended to be the best sustained DPS in the game and the best melee DPS in the game. If this is no longer the vision, I'd like to know why that is the case and what the vision for the class is currently. If it hasn't changed, then it is self evident we have some stuff to address.
 
Draeos said:
Then theres monks who get mend, some real nifty stances, alot of there dps is unresistable dd's, they get to fd and skip entire mechanic's in fights, and there still really good tanks. I'm going to stop comparing there because i think you get where im going with this.
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barely any of a monks dps is unresistable and an equally geared rogue will out tank an equally geared monk because of our dps combo or if not using the combo the rogue will destroy the monk in dps.

monks are in a bad state just like rogues we can be replaced by a shadowknight pulling and all our dps stems from us being able to sustain our dps combo (same exact mechanic of backstab in the sense of mobs moving cant land as well as if we miss a couple to start our combo our dps is trash). monks get 2 stances /s 15 to hit from the front and lose less accuracy and /s 2 which is our main dps stance because haste is much stronger than accuracy when our dps combo puts our accuracy very high. we have zero burn stances and we push even less buttons than rogues.

we can feign some nukes and what have you but that is useless in a sense that the group healer has to heal the other people anyway which makes that not as good as it sounds.

i'm not saying rogues do not need a buff but comparing yourself to a monk isnt a very good idea to get yourself buffed. ever since bane change the pure melee classes have suffered compared to any hybrid/caster

edit: im just comparing monk to rogue in a raid sense i dont care about duo potential and i do believe rogues need to be buffed dps wise on raids/6 mans but like i said before... trying to compare a rogue to a monk is far from the way to do it.
 
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this entire thread can be summarized in one simple sentence: the very ill-advised (and poorly understood by staff) bane damage change.

it really all stems back to that. current bane needs to be improved and added to more items, tier 13 still has NONE! and constructs/undead need more options, ie give clerics a debuff that allows undead to be crit, and give rogues or warrior a construct critting ability/stance
 
if someone felt inclined (Staff wise) they should host a special chat meeting in IRC or such and have all the rogues that can attend and answer any questions the Staff as a whole may have towards the rogues and allow them to voice their opinions.

but i do agree Rogues need a little love. it is disheartening that during a fight i mash backstab as much as possible and burn every clicky i have and still end up being anywhere from 200 to 900 dps lower than many of the other dps classes.
 
Otcho said:
Also one time thinkmeats told me traps would be really cool and useful and he had plans to make them part of some form of creative pulling. What a shattered dream he left me with.
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They have this on live its actually really cool, it places a little mem blur barrier down and only one mob comes through if you / no one else damages any other than the one u hit pulling. Grizz was pretty good at using it. Was only useful in xp. Totally different pulling game there tho Monks dont even pull raids.

But I also agree with statements above Rogues / Monks are hurting. Ive always hated that monk combo system. Should of been like the warrior stance system its 100x better. Rogues could use one just like it as well.
 
some more ideas

- Either a trigger-able sta drain or normal stance that if the rogue is out of backstab range and hits backstab it is saved up and ran anyway, then once the rogue is again in backstab range is unleashes the whole thing could last like 30 seconds?

- The longer a rogue is engaged on one target and within melee range of said target, you build up a knowledge about the creature granting you increased criticals, accuracy, or just a straight ac bypass sort of like a debuff? *As you continue your onslaught you start to notice weak points and strike with increased efficiency*

- A throwing stance? and better itemization for throwing? This could work but would be a boring way to try and help rogues.
 
Draeos said:
- The longer a rogue is engaged on one target and within melee range of said target, you build up a knowledge about the creature granting you increased criticals, accuracy, or just a straight ac bypass sort of like a debuff? *As you continue your onslaught you start to notice weak points and strike with increased efficiency*
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Very cool idea
 
Rogues should get a stamina based system like warriors with both activated abilities and stances using the /cm menu. At rest, a rogue would sit at 20% stamina. Rogues would gain stamina during fights by doing rogue-like stuff. For instance, being behind the mob attacking, landing a backstab, landing a crit, inflicting the mob with poison, and sitting or moving while hidden in stealth mode would all generate stamina. Rogues would be able to spend their stamina the same way that warriors do, with various moves that would have various rogue themes. It would give rogues something to do other then just mashing backstab till their eyes glaze over. Ideally the rogue abilities would have a sort of synergy that would allow the rogue to react depending on the situation and what role is needed at the time.

Poisons should also become a thing. They could either be ammo slot proc items or just be a regular proc buff. There would be all sorts of poisons and they would inflict devastating amounts of damage or apply effects that would cripple an enemy and greatly reduce their effectiveness in a fight. It would be kind of neat of the rogue had to find various items and combine them to make poisons but that could end up being tedious unless the items had a huge amount of charges or they just ended up being an ammo slot 'vial of blah blah poison' with the proc.

Also don't forget traps! Rogues should be able to set up all sorts of traps which would help rogues with pulling mobs or assisting other classes with pulling. Traps could do range from doing huge amounts of damage to applying debuffs which would decrease the mobs power and ability to fight while making the group or raid much more effective.
 
bloog said:
Rogues should get a stamina based system like warriors with both activated abilities and stances using the /cm menu. At rest, a rogue would sit at 20% stamina. Rogues would gain stamina during fights by doing rogue-like stuff. For instance, being behind the mob attacking, landing a backstab, landing a crit, inflicting the mob with poison, and sitting or moving while hidden in stealth mode would all generate stamina. Rogues would be able to spend their stamina the same way that warriors do, with various moves that would have various rogue themes. It would give rogues something to do other then just mashing backstab till their eyes glaze over. Ideally the rogue abilities would have a sort of synergy that would allow the rogue to react depending on the situation and what role is needed at the time.
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The warrior combo system is pretty cool. All the pure melees should get a combo system similar to what warriors have. It would keep the classes interesting.
 
Daffie said:
The warrior combo system is pretty cool. All the pure melees should get a combo system similar to what warriors have. It would keep the classes interesting.
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The system monks have has amazing potential, but it's missing a few key things currently. If special attacks were substantially more accurate (or combos were allowed to initiate with a miss) and the combo effects were actually balanced such that you'd want to use more than one of them, the monk class would be awesome.
 
Dinadass said:
The system monks have has amazing potential, but it's missing a few key things currently. If special attacks were substantially more accurate (or combos were allowed to initiate with a miss) and the combo effects were actually balanced such that you'd want to use more than one of them, the monk class would be awesome.
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I think for the combo system to ever be awesome, or even good, it would have to be reduced to two specials instead of three. Trying to plan for anything twelve seconds [-haste] out will never really result in anything other than pure dps, lifetaps, or maybe maybe maybe a debuff of some kind ever being used.

The whole combo system was handled like a midnight move out perpetrated by someone [edit:eek:ne thing too many] that didn't understand the difference between doors and windows (or something).
 
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donfolstar3 said:
I think for the combo system to ever be awesome, or even good, it would have to be reduced to two specials instead of three. Trying to plan for anything twelve seconds [-haste] out will never really result in anything other than pure dps, lifetaps, or maybe maybe maybe a debuff of some kind ever being used.

The whole combo system was handled like a midnight move out perpetrated by someone who hated their landlord and didn't understand the difference between door and windows (or something).
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It was a really cool idea to begin with, and I'm sure they worked hard on it.
 
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