Rogues, and TG

Status
Not open for further replies.
Salarus

Salarus

Dalayan Master
For 2 years now, i've been looking for a good spot for rogues in a raid. Rogue have good dps, sure, but they arn't on the top, and even though it's sustainable dps, it's still nothing to write home about. I'm going to be blunt, rogues need some love. We can lockpick VD/ED tmaps which is great, but other than that, we have nothing really to contribute, so here is what I propose:

With the recent nerf to pot4 and implimentation of shared mind, lower end guilds have felt an effect. This is mostly because lower end enchanter, don't have their resists maxed, so there is no benefit from them. Also, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe overall there was a slight resist drop even when combinnig pot4 and shared mind? So, in order to counter balance this, I propose rogues (and maybe bards) are slightly changed so that Tumblers grace becomes *group* wide. Tumblers grace currenlty grants increased safefall, and a 10% chance to dodge spells. If this was implimented, I believe rogues would be considered more useful, and desired on some encounters. Given that this is only a group wide 10% spell dodge, even if you had a rogue in all 3 groups (omg, more than 1 rogue on a raid...for once????) the dodge chance is low enough that I do not believe this would trivialize any encounter, or even make any that much easier. Group heals will still be about the same, as even if someone in the group dodges the spell, the rest of the group will still need a heal. However, I believe this will be enough of a chance that rogues will find a spot in the raid force.

Thoughts?
 
Last edited:
Magina said:
For 2 years now, i've been looking for a good spot for rogues in a raid. Rogue have good dps, sure, but they arn't on the top, and even though it's sustainable dps, it's still nothing to write home about. I'm going to be blunt, rogues need some love. We can lockpick VD/ED tmaps which is great, but other than that, we have nothing really to contribute, so here is what I propose:

With the recent nerf to pot4 and implimentation of shared mind, lower end guilds have felt an effect. This is mostly because lower end enchanter, don't have their resists maxed, so there is no benefit from them. Also, correct me if i'm wrong but I believe overall there was a slight resist drop even when combinnig pot4 and shared mind? So, in order to counter balance this, I propose rogues (and maybe bards) are slightly changed so that Tumblers grace becomes *group* wide. Tumblers grace currenlty grants increased safefall, and a 10% chance to dodge spells. If this was implimented, I believe rogues would be considered more useful, and desired on some encounters. Given that this is only a group wide 10% spell dodge, even if you had a rogue in all 3 groups (omg, more than 1 rogue on a raid...for once????) the dodge chance is low enough that I do not believe this would trivialize any encounter, or even make any that much easier. Group heals will still be about the same, as even if someone in the group dodges the spell, the rest of the group will still need a heal.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

Buffing bards , hell no.
10% spell dodge is huge btw, considering how many aoes some mobs will throw at you. I am in shock and awe that you have made a thread devoted to buffing the utility of rogues but the reasons you use for it is a lack of desire for rogues
in a raid.

Holy shit :psyduck:

I am kind of wondering how you think rogues are not desired and who is putting these ideas in your head
 
Sure, these suggestions boost the overall power of rogues, balance issues aside. The problem with rogues has nothing to do with their utility or strength on raids, it's that they are easily the most boring class in the game.

Find a way to make rogues interesting.
 
I raided a rogue, for a very long time. Rangers with bows out DPS us, wizard out dps us, necro's on longer fights out dps us. This was my expiereince raiding from tier 1 up through a couple encoutners in ToT, Valor B (other htan enthann) and lower thaz.

And really, if you're going to make an argument that rogues ARE needed on raids, please, inform me in what situations other than VD/ED tmaps you would prefer a rogue? I found none.
 
Magina said:
I raided a rogue, for a very long time. Rangers with bows out DPS us, wizard out dps us, necro's on longer fights out dps us. This was my expiereince raiding from tier 1 up through a couple encoutners in ToT, Valor B (other htan enthann) and lower thaz.

And really, if you're going to make an argument that rogues ARE needed on raids, please, inform me in what situations other than VD/ED tmaps you would prefer a rogue? I found none.
Click to expand...

You need a rogue for pimpin 3x loots. :hmpf:

Im curious what rogue you are comparing to losing in dps to a ranger on most fights, The only times Ive found this true is when I am dualboxing and said ranger is nomming giantkins. I wonder where that thread went about giantkin being useless for rogues.

I have yet to see a serious complaint as to why rogues aren't needed. and surely there are fights that benefit rogues being chosen over wizards (counterspell/reflect)
 
sure, you could chose a rogue, or ranger + bow which is more dps. Unforutnatly, I haven't raided as a rogue in awhile. I was formerly in fusion (zecceriah) and I would lose out on dps to every ranger even krypp, who at the time had worse gear than me. This was a consistant ongoing thing, there was only 1 fight ever where I came out on top of DPS, and that was because the encoutner required poeple to kill adds, and I was the only dps class 100% on the named at all times.
 
Awhile back, gm's/dev's did some parses of rangers vrs rogues at different tiers. Their conclusion, was that rangers with bows and high dmg arrows, should be out damages rogues slightly. So no, i'm not doing something wrong. Also, these very same rangers doing their fulll damage avoid WW, and can contribute at least 1 spell to the raid (cotp).

Also, if you're going to reply, don't shit up the thread please, say someting constructive.
 
Last edited:
tbh, I thought the TG was a good idea, I just brought it up because rogues NEED some love. In raids, they dont' have anything special, out of raids, they are the worst solo/duo class i've come across. In groups we're fine, but with the massive amount of AoE groups going on, most of those groups would rahter take a mage or a wiz as dps. And keep in mind, i'm just asking for a group wide 10%, which again, I don't think is that big. And yes, shared mind is what gave me the idea to make TG's group wide, but until then I couldn't think of a thing to do to improve rogues that wouldn't require some massive reworking of the class itself.
 
nope, every class should have their own version of shared mind. just makes more sense, obviously. war could use all their dmg mitigation AA, cleric could use their healing, etc... would just make the game more balanced!

*sarcasm- don't take this seriously* lol
 
So, why arn't these people being forum banned for trolling?

Seriously, rogues have been a troubled class for a very long time, suggesting a modification is not a very far fetched idea.
 
Last edited:
There is nothing wrong with trolling bad ideas. As long as in the post your posting something related to the topic, not just LOLYOUSUCK, FAILATLIFEANDDIEINAFIRE, or other such personal attacks. That's just my understanding of it.

But yeah, if you were infact in Fusion, as you say, then you'd know there are some fights (some awfully new ones even) where not getting hit by that AoE would be a bad thing, especially if your a healer or the tank (although, rogues in the tanks group is kinda funny)

The utility from rogues should come through their poisons. Idk if you remember reading anything about dot weakening, but IMO a good utility for rogues, since they cant aux tank from behind, is to load up a bunch of dot poisons and help lower the DPS of the mob, which is great utility unless you like healers using more mana than needed, and possibly wiping more than necessary.

Rogues have utility, if you know what your doing. And their usefulness on raids has never been questioned by anyone but rogue themselves as ive seen.
 
WAS is past tense, as in I took a long break and quit raiding awhile back, i'm not in TU

Also, look at numbers. I'll try to dig up that old dps post done by dev's/gm's but it's over a year old. Rangers, who dont' get hit by WW, and are also doing more damage than rogues, and also have a buff to contribute to the raid, seem to be the better choice for the vast majority of encounters you'll come across.
As per rogue poisons, sure, as i've already stated, I brought this up as I thought it would be a good, non game breaking idea. "you're doing something wrong'' posts are always helpful and very contstructive feedback though, i'm sure i'll just go press a "do it right" button next time I log in my rogue.
 
Last edited:
Alright, so with the exception of some fights, myself and Yona consistently top the DPS charts in PR. In groups i consistently out dps everyone unless its an AE group and even then i do plenty. I really don't think we need this. If anything, cool poisons that stack and are worth the buff spot on a raid would be nice.
 
JDJersey said:
Alright, so with the exception of some fights, myself and Yona consistently top the DPS charts in PR. In groups i consistently out dps everyone unless its an AE group and even then i do plenty. I really don't think we need this. If anything, cool poisons that stack and are worth the buff spot on a raid would be nice.
Click to expand...

This is basically my experience, aside nwaij sometimes beating me, and instances where I am boxing and not paying shit for attention on my rogue because beittil died and I have to heal his group as well as mine :)psyduck:)

I have yet to meet a fight where I am really crippled by whirlwind as a rogue, the range is never large enough to prevent jousting and most of the time a paladin hot +occasional group heal is enough to just bite through it.

I would honestly like to see some new poisons and effects from them, The otherday I sadly realized that using poisons on the kralaw wing in emberflow basically wrecks dispells and I made a very sad face

I also was pretty serious when I mentioned giantkin and rogues :(
 
Last edited:
I just dislike that everyones definition of utility is doing something that either involves buffing the raid or something apart from simple DPS.

Poisons are there for a reason. Yeah, there are some stacking issues (which is kinda dumb), but they are there to serve as a means of utility for rogues. If they weren't, used have one line of poisons, a DD or DoT. But thats not the case. You have many different ones, some arguably far more useful than others, and they are all pretty situational. Knowing when to use them is far more than half the battle in this case!

And rogue DPS is, and has been fine where it is for some time. Rogues love to harp on the "but rangers are better" thing time and time again. Are they better? If they are at all, its very marginally. Personally, I believe that rogues are fine as is, and rangers DPS with a bow is still slightly overpowered. The risk vs reward when comparing these two classes, doesn't balance out, simple as that. But thats a topic for another.
 
kibeth said:
I just dislike that everyones definition of utility is doing something that either involves buffing the raid or something apart from simple DPS.
Click to expand...

If thats the case, Utility involves either buffing or something other than DPS, then wizards have no place on raids either huh? i mean just like rogues can only lockpick and use poison, wizards can only port *shrug* big deal right? Same with Warriors.. they only tank right. no buff or anything ? psh
dont down play the importance of Rogues on a raid/ group. They are excellent DPS and they do have utility, but like all other classes, their utility is situational
 
I'll be honest, I dont really want anything else to do. I play a rogue because we're lazy dps machines. Please dont get that fucked up for me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom