pug restriction changes?

oozu1234

oozu1234

Dalayan Adventurer
Don't get me wrong as an Avid Pugg'er i didnt mind this rule coming into place and i acctually liked the fact that some zones are off limits to pick up raids.... however i feel like a small alteration would go along ways for making things easier and people happier.



With the new rule that some zones are off limits to pugs (Pick up raids) i Think the rule should be altered just slightly to: Pickup GROUPS AND OR RAIDS may not kill RAID BOSSES in the listed zones.... any reasons why this couldnt be done? or reasons why it isnt already so?

Why do this? so people can farm say prison for gems that say jump from a tier 3-4 guild to a tier 8 guild thats past tier 5.

Its hard to get a GUILD to back raid something and jusrt as hard to get a small group of people. I dont see any wrong in getting a group of friends together to get trash mob drops...

*EDIT* and if say this change could go into effect it would be obvious jail time for anyone that kills bosses or mini bosses

Thoughts?
 
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That would just make the policy even more difficult to police, which I assume the point of it in the first place was to get rid of needing to check everybody for 2/3rd flags.
 
If it's hard to get a group of people in your guild together to kill things that will help the progression of your guild, then you might need a new guild. If they are a progression guild and nobody wants to help for the progression of the guild, then they aren't a very good progression guild. If they are a casual guild and won't help out, then either you're asking for help too much and not helping others out in return or they aren't a supportive casual guild, and then you need a new supportive casual guild.

If a coding solution to allow a paradigm shift of the PuG vs. Guild raid concept occurs, the policy will change to reflect it at that time, and it'll be a big deal. Until then, the policy is as it is.
 
a) progress on PuGs. Plenty of zones where those are allowed.
b) if your guild died and you want to progress more, fina a new guild that isn't dead duh!
 
yah i understand that. its really not an issue with me. more so for people that play casually or play on wacky time frames. i made this post because i wanted to go farm some items i needed for a quest in a raid zone that was on the do not pug list. had a few people wanting to go in guild which was more than enough force.

I /who all friend and invited a friend to come and fill the last spot ( guy is in a dead guild and plays during a time that guilds don't raid[an old TNC] member) and then was like oh shit he might not be able to come so i asked the guild on clarification on this rule and low and behold just because he's not in my guild he can't come get progression items he needs that we dont... i just felt that that was kinda shitty and wanted to see if it could be changed. however i obviously got the wall here so i wont bug about it anymore....
 
just have him unguild for a second and join your guild whlie you're raiding. I remember in Amicii Cil guilded with CW when he was leading a raid while tryling was gone, was pretty wacky.
 
jew_nose_it said:
just have him unguild for a second and join your guild whlie you're raiding. I remember in Amicii Cil guilded with CW when he was leading a raid while tryling was gone, was pretty wacky.
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Bending the rules is an interesting approach after asking on clarification from someone whos responsibility it is to enforce those rules though.
 
So why not use this as an ability to make alliances mean something?
I mean this rule shoots guilds in the foot who are in a slump or have people who cant play the game 24/7.
My guild for instance is flagged for prison but we can not raid prison because alot of our force are teachers and college students, and we have an alliance with another guild on tier with us but cant go with them because of this rule, because we have 2 different guild flag. So what your saying is the group of people ive been playing with for the last 2 year i should just toss aside to find a spot in a guild that propbably has a depth chart of 3-4 for my classes anyways?
The only thing i see this rule doing is catering to the top 5% that want to gear up their ults with quest items from the "locked" zones and blocking or severely slowing other guilds progression.
With this rule and the removal of Thaz all u guys did was bottle neck t6-t9.
 
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jew_nose_it said:
just have him unguild for a second and join your guild whlie you're raiding. I remember in Amicii Cil guilded with CW when he was leading a raid while tryling was gone, was pretty wacky.
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And this was for fun ages ago when Cil still played.... Way before any guildonly zones was implemented... So cant really compare a "lets tag him and make fun of the other officers in Amicii for a bit and make them think he quit on them" with a real "Hit and Run tag just for loot".
 
mechkl said:
So why not use this as an ability to make alliances mean something?
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i don't really think it bottle necked anything. but i do think this would be a cool thing to maybe allow.

Maybe a thread like Pickup raiding (bakc when we had to post for claims) but maybe allow lower tier guilds to make alliances with other guilds. you could have up to 1-2 "alliances" and it would HAVE to be posted that you have an alliance with this guild.

Then that guild say doesnt have enough members online or the right members online for that day and need some help to take down their targets they could then raid the zone.

The ONLY thing that would go under " becomes harder to enforce thing" would be when you /who all *zone* to check to see if everyone's flagged when you notice a few people with another guild tag you may have to take an extra 2 seconds to alt tab to the forums you already have up and check and see if those guilds are "aligned".

i know WWWAAAYYYY back (like 3 years ago) Seduction and Seven Virtues did this when both guilds were having a bind spot.... They eventually Merged.
 
I am not sure where to post this so I am doing it here. It seemed appropriate for this topic. I hope "the powers that be" get a chance to read it here.

It has been indicated to me by reliable sources that a "pug" is being defined as having any single person not having the same guild tag. I have a bunch of valid concerns about this broad new definition:

First, what happens when a guild wants to bring along an applicant so we can get to know them, see them in a raid, check out their skillz? Would loot have to be "claimed" by the guild? Can loot even be claimed by a guild as a whole on a pug? The ther's the possibility of wanting to go to a non-puggable zone. Sorry, not tagged yet? No can do. It's pretty standard for guilds to want to take someone on raids before tagging them and I know that I won't approve a tag on someone I don't already know without that step.

Another issue is that it prevents people from raiding with friends accross guild lines. A couple of years ago, when Novus was still moving up the middle tiers, CW was struggling to field a raid force. My wife and I happen to have friends in CW so, on non-Novus raid nights, we offered to play Ryst and Tani to help fill the gaps and get a chance to raid with some friends we rarely got to see and talk to. We knew it was a CW guild raid. We knew all loot was claimed by CW. We were guests and had no aspirations about any loot whatsoever. We just wanted to hang with friends and help out a bit. The new "clarification" kind of makes being able to do this more complicated and prevents it completely in "non-puggable" zones.

Yet another issue is that if people have an alt in another guild they can't even bring them to some zones? Even if it's the original owner and same person? I'll use Ryst and Tani as an example again. They are tagged Ruin and when Novus doesn't have enough on to fill a raid we sometimes need to fill a raid with boxes (a pretty common occurance in most guild tbh). Now, we can't even bring our own characters on a guild raid without it being deemed a pug? Yeah, I know Ruin is a dead guild and I wear the tag for mere nostalgic reasons and could just detag and retag Novus (permanantly). But why should I have to? Does it really make that big a difference?

What if two guilds want to form a joint raid. Both guild have the proper flags. They agree on how loot will be distributed fairly and if any items would be "claimed" and put it in the new raidmotd ... are cooperative alliances now gone or limited? Again, it draws lines of friendship accross guild lines.

Here's my suggestion:

The new "raidmotd" was created to handle disputes in non-guild raids. How about, if a raid has any unguilded or differently guilded members require an appropriate raidmotd ... "This is a Novus raid. All loot is claimed by Novus and will be distributed by guild policy."

If we can call it a "guild raid" in the raid motd and make it clear how loot is going to be handled, and everyone in the raid accepts that, then shouldn't it be fine? This is why the "raidmotd" was created in the first place, correct? It's an easy solution that doesn't take powers to govern a guild away from the guild, doesn't limit how you can spend time with friends that happen to be in another guild, doesn't restrict how you use your own alts and it's easy for staff to check/track.

Thank you for your time,

Aynahe/Ryst
 
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Ryst said:
Yet another issue is that if people have an alt in another guild they can't even bring them to some zones? Even if it's the original owner and same person? I'll use Ryst and Tani as an example again. They are tagged Ruin and when Novus doesn't have enough on to fill a raid we sometimes need to fill a raid with boxes (a pretty common occurance in most guild tbh). Now, we can't even bring our own characters on a guild raid without it being deemed a pug? Yeah, I know Ruin is a dead guild and I wear the tag for mere nostalgic reasons and could just detag and retag Novus (permanantly). But why should I have to? Does it really make that big a difference?

Aynahe/Ryst
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I can answer this one, Nope they have to be tagged with your guild tag, Example: We go to spires to farm opus's Mgkida brings his alt Mokude tagged fearless a 7k SK knight we warn't using for anything but a makeshift monk, Fearless is a dead guild we had no intention of letting this alt loot anything yet tao showed up said that its technically a pug even tho the main of this char is here and only maintains that tag for the same reason you maintain the ruin one, I had to have him deguild him and invited him to exodus, Cheers that was totally and completely pointless cuz anyone with a brain would know thats not a pug. I think there needs to be a blanket common fucking sense rule,

"If you know what your doing is against the rules don't do it, If you know what your doing doesn't matter at all and you have no intention of doing anything shaddy have fun"

Or GMs just need to know when to look the other direction when something clearly doesn't matter at all like in these cases or like bango bring plaps his alt to spires who was goon squad flagged herp derp fucking silly is what that is
 
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Ryst said:
Another issue is that it prevents people from raiding with friends accross guild lines.
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the biggest problem with these rule enforcement changes right here.

used to do things like, say, raid a zone now on the "no pug list" and have someone play a character from another guild because we noticed, for example "oh hey, we don't need <class> archaic spell fragments/some raid mob's loot that would rot/etc and the boxed character and/or player from another guild playing their own character could use these things", or have friend(s) from another guild play a character or two that wasn't tagged to our guild because they were just looking for something to do. It was quite clear that it was our raid since the vast majority of the characters were ours, but now things like that are considered pugs for whatever reason

don't like it
 
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